Bell Digest v940604p4

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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 04 Jun 1994, part 4
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From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Heort; Vinga; Ralios
Message-ID: <199406032110.AA08670@radiomail.net>
Date: 3 Jun 94 21:10:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4359

Joerg answered
>>>King Heort with his antlers
>> Where's this reference?
>RuneQuest Companion, p.27, Jonstown Compendium 1483. Expanded by 
>Mr. Nick Brooke...

Ah, Heort wears a hart mask. Not quite the same as _having_ antlers. (And
related to his name?)

>Heler is one of the most aggressive of the war gods of the Orlanthi. 

"Heler is occasionally considered a militant deity, but rarely as an
effective one." His images are "never armed." He certainly isn't a war god
today, and I'm not sure he ever was.

Matt asks
>I've often heard mention  of Vinga the Adventuress, but
>other than the fact that she is Orlanth's daughter, I
>really don't know anything about her.
>Does anyone have a cult write up?

I was just about to ask myself...

RQ: Adventures in Glorantha has her as an Orlanth subcult. I give her the
rune spell 

Wind Run  1 point, reusable
The recipient of this spell can run at up to ten times Movement Rate
(instead of the normal three times), but only in the direction of the wind.
While at speed, she can run over obstacles no higher than herself.

In my East Ralios campaign, Vinga is very popular -- most of my female
players liked the idea of spiking their hair [in East Ralios, Vingans wash
their hair with lime instead of dying it with henna as in Dragon Pass].

Harald asked
>Now about Urox the Storm Bull in the Ralian mythos--how did he defeat 
>the Devil?  It seems to me that the story would be far 
>different from that told in Sartar or Prax.

The basic tale of Urox fighting the Devil is no doubt present, and I see no
reason why a piece of the Spike couldn't have squashed the Devil in the
Ralios version. But I suspect since there was no Block or Dead Place as a
constant reminder of the struggle, he was considered a minor storm
deity...until Gbaji. Even now, he's not a major god.

Supposedly the Rockwood Mountains were formed in Godtime to separate the
warring people of Peloria and Ralios [Dorastor: Land of Doom], I don't see
Urox having a role.

>How do the East Ralians view Malkioni?

I started my campaign with characters from the Belovaking clan, all of whom
have Hate Naskorion as a passion. This is mostly because they are close
neighbors, and raid each other a lot. Think of it as an institutionalized
blood feud.

The majority of the clans probably have more complex views. Many
Safelstrans actually worship the same deities they do (even if the nobility
may be Malkioni). And they have good things to trade. On the other hand,
they have good things to pillage, and some of them worship Arkat -- East
Ralians use that name as a curse, something you yell when you stub your
toe.

Safelstrans often hire East Ralian mercenaries, who are happy for the
chance at glory and plunder without the risk of starting a blood feud.
Naskorion isn't quite so happy with this practice, as mercenary bands often
try for a little more plunder on the way home.


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From: DevinC@aol.com
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 03 Jun 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <9406032042.tn807696@aol.com>
Date: 4 Jun 94 00:42:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4360

Devin Cutler here:

Sandy aswwers my question regarding WHY the GL did what they did well enough.
But it leads me to an even deeper question.

I do not know a lot about the origins of the Jrusteli. In other words, sure,
we know everything about them once they left their home continent (now mostly
sunk beneath the waves) and colonized the Homeward Ocean coastal areas, but I
would like to know what pre-GL Jrustela was like and, more importantly, why,
of all 2nd Age societies, did the Jrusteli possess the means and innate
curiousity to become the Gls while other societies in Glorantha did not?

In other words, what mechanism was present that stopped the Pelorians, the
Seshnegi, the Kralorelans, etc. from becoming the GL and allowed the Jursteli
to do so instead?

"Once you decide that Ehilm and Yelm are the same guy, you can  
assassinate the Ehilm king by portraying Orlanth on a heroquest, even  
if the Ehilm folk have never heard of that particular part of the  
legend. "

This is one of the best reasons yet that I have heard for the creation of the
monomyth...because it is quite simply EASIER to heroquest when the threads of
the godplane are less and therefore more maneagable. If 200 gods and their
myths are combined into 25 gods and myths, then I imagine HQing becomes much
more manageable, chartable, and manipulable.

Also, a while back I posted a concern of mine that in GCTHW, in the Fronelan
Section, the dates for the Closing conflicted with one another. I never
received a reply to this posting, but I think it is an important point, since
the Closing is probably the seminal event in Fronelan history. Anyone care to
answer my question if iI re-post?

Paul Reilly writes:

"Rats!  I was hoping this was my scenario in #11, mistakenly attributed
to Nick.  Rather than someone else's in #10, also mistakenly attributed to
Nick..."

I admit that I now do not know where I saw a scenario by Nick, but I'll go to
my grave swearing that I did and I liked it-)

In any case, I DID enjoy your "Veldt Trek" in issue #11.

Harald Smith writes:

" And glancing at several articles posted from this week, 
            perhaps Devin is beginning to see more of what he is looking 
            for."

Yes, Harald, I am-)

For any who care, the answer to my Riddles...thanks to all who responded:

Riddle 1: Death (most got this easily)

Riddle 2: Mostali (specifically, Dwarfs or Clay Mostali) (this too was gotten
easily)

Riddle 3: Fingers of a hand (this one was a bit harder, though most got it)

Riddle 4: A Die! (Only one person got this one, I wonder why? Certainly Dice
are not foreign to us as players/GMs [and shouldn't be foreign to Gloranthans
as well])

Riddle 5: A Spider (again, very easy one). I will keep this one, however, as
Aranea, Fate, and Arachne Solara are too intertwined in my campaign to ditch
it, easy or not.

Riddle 6: Yelm (an easy one, but meant to be a personal insult from the
Trickster to the group's Yelmalian)

Riddle 7: A book (the two leather covers = cows, the tree= paper, squid =
sepia [BTW, I was told by Sandy that sepia actually came from cuttles...Oh
Well!]) (no one got this one)

Also, thanks for the Morokanth Thumbs. I really liked the description. I am
diggin out my Borderlands to see what you've added or changed from that
description.

I don't suppose anyone has written up the cult of Elmal or at least can tell
me what the differences between Yelmalio and Elmal are? And, yes, I finally
received the RQ Con guide and read the justifications. Nothing new to change
my opinions.

Also, I second the call for a Vinga cult writeup. This is an excellent cult
and an opportunity to have female warriors without the restrictions of
Yelorna (who also isn't written up for RQ3). I would like to write it up
myself (Vinga that is) but have only the info from KoS (I'd never even heard
of her before that). Anyone willing to give this a shot and patch up a
glaring hole?

Please note, however, that my lack of enthusiasm for the Elmal/Yelmalian
switch does not mean that I will not use Elmal. I try to be consistent to
Glorantha as much as possible, even with things I don't like. Why?

Although I could change everything about Glorantha that I don't like, I like
to take the entity as officially presented as much as possible. It helps my
campaign stay as compatible as possible with future supplements and because
it allows other players who know Glorantha to transfer in to the campaign
without being at a complete loss.

Regards,

Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com






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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Killed until dead, twice nightly.
Message-ID: <9406040125.AA01149@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Jun 94 01:25:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4361


Paul Reilly:
>   We know the Lunars use crucifixion.  Being nailed to a Death Rune has
> got to have some effects.

Smarts a tad?

>   Nick, where did the Lunars pick up this charming custom?  I would guess that
> it comes in via the Carmanian Empire, as opposed to the Dara Happan.

Duke Yanafal probably instigated the custom personally.  Firm, but... well,
just firm, really.

I wonder if anywhere prisoners are tortured to death, resurrected, tortured
to death again, etc?

>   DO people want Harangvat info?

Who they?  Anything to do with Harandash, or Haranshold?

>   Do Dara Happans burn criminals?  Or is fire too holy for that?

I'd think this would be rare, being only for those crimes serious enough
to mandate death, but not actually "polluting" the (invariably high caste)
offender.  Say, the High Seer of Dayzatar fumbling his Predict Conjunction
of the Planets roll.  (Does Glorantha have eclipses?)

What about burial alive?  Let's not forget those rave-faves, castration, and
Putting Out of The Eyes, for "lesser" offences (or as a preamble to execution).
Defenestration, breaking on the wheel, and poisoning may all be used too.

> It may vary
> from city to city, for example Alkoth may burn heretics and traitors while
> Yuthuppans just ignore them and hope they go away...

Why, in Yuthuppa they are Thrown Overboard.  Shame there's no longer a nice
soft sea to land in on the other side of the wall/hull.  (I heard they tried
to keel-haul someone once.  Very nasty.  To say nothing of time-consuming.)
Alkoth, after its martial habit, often uses the method of shooting by Firing
Lance, in a rather boring and pragmatic way, I'm (un)reliably informed.  The
last person who suggested "Lance" was an illogical term for a quarter-file
of archers, had the Dara Happan word for "excessively clever" branded on his
backside, interestingly enough.

>   Westerners probably use execution method according to social class.

Hanging/Beheading/Burning/Starvation to death, bricked up in a tower,
perhaps, in "ascending" order.

>   Kralorelans: a variety of inventive methods.

Vormainians: a variety of _efficient_ methods.

>   All-time champions are probably the Kingdom of Ignorance.

Blood Feast for Breakfast, Blood Feast for Lunch, Blood Feast for Tea?

Others: Merfolk probably use drowning, though drowning a Gnydron would
require some inventive techinique to keep them above the surface of the
water, or on dry land.  Handily, there's a spell to do it, if all else
fails.

Aldryami use Composting, of course, or in very rare and extreme cases,
chopping up and burning.

Agimori usually allow condemnees to commit suicide, and many banished
from the tribe choose this too.  (In fact, death/banishment may not even
technically be distinct sentences.)  Stoning is used for serious breach
of cultural taboo.

Coastal Pamaltelans are alleged (mainly by each other) to use various
horrible methods, including boiling alive (in a range of substances),
drowning (especially where the natives don't sail or swim), Lateral
Bifurcation (by assorted devices), garrotting, fatal flagellation, and
suffusion with molten metal, usually lead or silver, as budget and
inclination allows.

Teleos: becoming a food offering to the dragonewts.  Whether tied to a
post, or fully motile, I'm not sure.

The Trowjang amazons are known for doing hideous things to male P.O.W.s;
another method of disposal is employed on visitors to their island who
transgress severely, is confinement overnight in the Temple of Tolat.
No one's quite sure what happens after that point, but it's invariably
(permanently) fatal.

In Teshnos, the method of tying either leg of the victim to the trunk
of a pair of flexed trees and [remainder censored for the squeamish]
is known.  A variant uses two (or extravagently, four) elephants.  
Cheapskates have the condemned trampled to death by just the one.  There's
also being staked out in the sun for the ants.  Traditionalists are often
heard demanding the reintroduction of the ancient penalty of surgical
removal of the brain.

Girding himself against accusations of having undergone this last,
Alex.

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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Acolytes
Message-ID: <9406040125.AA01156@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Jun 94 01:25:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4362


Joerg:
> [...] acolytes (whom I regard as advanced initiates, following 
> the CoT Thanatar write-up, GoG Trickster "initiates", and the Dorastor-LoD 
> Telmor write-up).

I think this is a legitimate and often-valid view.  But I think the real
problem is with GoG cookie-cutter syndrome for acolytes, in particular,
since they play very different roles in different cults.  In some they are
indeed advanced initiates, while in others they are as near priests as
dammit, and only a fixed priestly structure prevents them from being promoted
to the higher rank.  There's also acolytes as ersatz rune lords to be
considered.

> But then I'd restrict the speed Acolytes (and Rune Lords 
> in priest-dominated cults) regain their divine magic to a maximum of one 
> point per week.

This seems a mostly hypothetical point: in priest-dominated cults, RLs don't
get rune magic.  Or does this refer to some mysterious AiGism?

Alex.

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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Orlanth's Tea Leaf aspect.
Message-ID: <9406040145.AA01195@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Jun 94 01:45:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4363


> Alistair asked:
> > What published materials would people recommend for starting off a new 
> > campaign for new players? 

Nick Brooke, waffling on...:
> If I were starting from scratch using published materials, I think I'd go 
> for Sun County and Shadows on the Borderlands. Run "Gaumata's Vision" from 
> SotB first: it's the most Gloranthan scenario I know, and very good for 
> beginners IMHO. If the players enjoy that, Sun County includes more local 
> scenarios (inc. the excellent "Melisande's Hand"). If playing in a mono- 
> cultural region bores you, River of Cradles has cult writeups and world 
> background for the whole Zola Fel valley: it nicely complements the Sun 
> County setting.

> The same for "more experienced players" [...].

I heartily th this recommendation; I'd opt for the Outsiders option for
the SC scenarios in particular, as being relatively non-painful for new
players.  (Though not necessarily their characters...)

> Pam asked:
> 
> > How would an Orlanthi clan chief deal with a young man from his clan who
> > had been caught robbing strangers?  Fines? Banishment? Confinement? Lop
> > off body parts?  Make him do extra work?

> Strangers, eh? If they're too weak to cause trouble, he'd have a good laugh 
> and expect to receive a cut of the proceeds.

Wotta cynic.  Firstly, it matters exactly what you mean by "strangers".
Members of another clan of the same tribe, members of a different tribe
of the same kingom, and non-Orlanthi, will, in very general terms, get
progressively more slipshod treatment.  But simple theft isn't a very
hideous crime among the Orlanthi, so the typical punishment would be a
fine of some sort: a nominal one in some cases (aka, the chief's cut),
a swingeing one greater than the value of the goods if successful suit is
brought against the perpetrator.

> Likewise, on the god Yelm, Greg wrote:

> : The first [Yelmic society considered] is the primitive nomad culture
> : of the horse barbarians and the second is the splendid empire of Dara
> : Happa...

Have we worked out if the nomads even _call_ the sun Yelm yet?  One sun
demonstrably doesn't mean one sun god.

> But the current, long-running Joerg/Alex thread has me lost and bewildered. 
> Nobody has been able to join in with anything like the fervour of the two 
> originators; tangential contributions are ignored, in favour of the point/ 
> counterpoint between the RuneQuest Daily's two tallest contributors.

Hey, they don't call us Intellectual Giants for nothing, O Nick of little
height and reading comprehension. }B-)  I can understand people being fed
up with the initiation discussion, but I'm a bit miffed that anything else
Joerg and I happen to say to each other being tarred (and feathered) with
the same brush (and chicken).

> Why not take it off the Daily, into private email, for a week or so. Post 
> whatever distilled wisdom you can gather together at the end of that time.

Don't be silly: we'd only end up failing to agree on the summary and reposting
the whole email convo.

> On which subject: Western Saints have haloes. Illuminates have haloes. Is 
> there some connection?

I think this is something we can blame the Carmanians for: they took the
corona, or orb of light used as a symbol of holiness among solar folk, and
applied it to their own saints, turning it into what is the current form of
the halo.  This iconographic custom then migrated to the Rest of the West,
and was then independantly co-opted by the Lunars for illuminants.  (This
explanation may be too pseudo-terran for some, I predict.)

Alex.

---------------------

From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: A dog of a caste system.
Message-ID: <9406040155.AA01201@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Jun 94 01:55:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4364


> Pam Carlson rants:
> >THERE SHOULD BE MORE DOGS IN RQ!  Where are the big dogs who guard  
> >caravans at night?  how could so many cultures fail to keep such a  
> >fabulously useful beastie?

Sandy "nice posts, shame about the subject lines" Petersen feebly concedes:
> 	er... (embarrassed shuffling) ... I guess it's really because  
> neither Greg nor me nor Steve Perrin have ever been particularly "dog  
> people".

Actually, there were howls (meows?) of indignation at Convulsion for dogs
getting better treatment than cats in Glorantha.  (Yinkin is the best of
a meagre lot cat god wise, while Brother Dog is quite well-developed and
ubiquitous, allegedly.)

> [In Prax] One of their jobs is to slink around the campsites  
> and bark when something or someone shows up that they don't like. And  
> to eat offal. 

Isn't that what Praxian slaves are for?

> I bet the High Holy Day prayer for Storm Bull includes lengthy mentions  
> and evocations of Ernalda, Eiritha, Zorak Zoran, etc. 

Wouldn't that involve having initiates with an actual attention span?

> On Malkioni Castes:
> >One interesting thing to note is that tecnically only the men belong  
> >to different castes; all the women belong to one of their own. At  
> >least among the Brithini.
> 	This is true. I think that the Hrestoli have women join the  
> regular four castes, but they probably interpret the caste strictures  
> _very_ differently for men and women, as I picture Malkioni in  
> general as rather male-dominated. But I'm open to suggestions. 

Actually, I think the Hrestol maintain the one-female-caste situation.  Or
else they have very funny rules for promotion among women.  What happens
when one of a married couple is promoted?  Spouse is bumped up too?  Society
is shocked by a mixed-caste marriage?  Divorce?  Of course, for all real
purposes, a wife is going to be measured by her husband's status (or her
father's; moral: don't be an unmarried female orphan), so this is a minor
matter, pragmatically.

Female caste stricture: do what hubby/daddy/nearest upwind male authority
tells you to.

One the other hand, I'm tempted to believe that Orlanthi-influenced Malkioni,
such as the Jonatings (?), have a caste structure into which women are more
integrated.  I'm not sure if Jonatela has a Hrestoli-type sect, or a heresy
of its own, so I'll shut up before putting my foot (further) in it.  Info?

> 	How about the Rokari? Do they have a separate Female caste?  
> Does it make chauvinistic sense for a woman to take on the caste of  
> her husband? Other suggestions? 

I'm not sure what the Official Rokari situation might be, but I'll bet
that even if all women are notionally of a single caste, they are de facto
members of their parents' caste, and people are scandalised if a wizard's
daughter marries a knight.  Actually, I think many Rokari are scandalised
three times a day, and four times on Clayday, and write lengthy letters to
their local herald or cryer saying so.

Digusted of Tunbridge Wells,
Alex.