Bell Digest v940606p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 06 Jun 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


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From: isaac@twics.com
Subject: Dangans 'n' Things...
Message-ID: <0097F74C.AF219D60.26@tanuki.twics.com>
Date: 4 Jun 94 07:10:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4370

Hi everyone, and Konnichi wa from Japan. The rainy season approaches Tokyo,
and the Green Fungus Thought Police are patrolling the streets. Watch the
walls...

Thanks for everyone's help re: my Dangans query. It's cleared up my confusion
thinking they were perhaps the same. I mentioned Ken Rolston's DW15 New Fens
write-up last week: well, I got in touch with Marc Willner, whose campaign
notes the New Fens background was taken from, and he told me about _his_
Dangans. Maybe everyone already knows this, but it was news to me :-). I
hope you won't mind me posting it anyway...

(Marc Willner) "The Dangans were originally a people I made up to cover that
area. (Marc refers to the New Fens area in Maniria) They would now be 
considered an offshoot of the Slonton Kingdom, one of the allies of the God
Learners. Slontos is now in the MournSea, and its people now in Ramalia. In
the First Age, the Fens were just that, a watery grassland covering the 
Noshain River Valley. The Dangans drained and channeled the water into a 
single river. When the Judgement of the God Learners struck, Slontos was sunk
and the Fens broke the canals and reclaimed much of the original lands."

Marc also sheds some light on the city of Handra:
"As for Handra, it was founded about 400 years ago by the survivors of a 
slave revolt in the Safelster city-states. Since monotheism didn't exist when
I wrote it up, their religion is more like Ancestor Worship/City God Cult 
than anything you might find in the West. There are five City Gods, who were
the leaders of the surviving slaves and some allies they found along the way.
The city is named for the leader of the slaves, Handra Liv."

Sorry to all concerned if I'm repeating what everybody already knows here,
but my point is this; does anyone have any views on whether these are the
Dangkae of Jonat's Saga / descendants of King Dan, or whether they have
something to do with the Dangan Confederacy of Jonas Schiott's East Wilds
History? If the former, then the draining of the Fens must have been Second
Age...? Erm...? As for the latter, I'm a bit confused about the dates for the
Dangan Confederacy. Jonas says the First Age - are they still there now? 
BTW Jonas; people have told me there are sources referring to the
Confederacy, but I don't seem to be able to find anything. Are they really
obscure, or am I just missing my Scan roll a lot?  Help!

Better leave off the Dangans for a while before my brain goes and i carnt
rite propper sentnnces annymor... 

Other stuff: loved Nick's ideas on Pelorian Newspeak! There's some really
fertile ground for illuminated linguists there... The Russian language once
had the same word for "Red" and "Beautiful" (hence Red Square); something
similar would be really appropriate for the Lunar's tongue... maybe on an
obvious moral level, like Red equals Good, or maybe something more subtle...?
The Bulgarians nodding when they say "no" and shaking their heads when they
say "yes" would have any Riddler cracking his knuckles with glee... Tortuous
grammatical rules which contain elaborate Nysalor Riddles which suddenly
dawn on you if you hold a thought for just a little too long....
Gee, where _does_ my fist go when I open my hand?

Cullen's (and others :-) ) queries about Japanese RQ ; I'll post something
a bit more substantial when I have some more time... (or a round tuit or 
whatever they call it these days ), but for the nonce, here's something
which puzzled me 't'other day;
The "Dragon Atlas" published by Hobby Japan over here has a scenario in it
called "Sword, Shield and Seer", which I'm presuming is home grown (?). 
Annnyway, it's set in Sartar, and the set up is this: a Storm Voice by the 
name of Jamai Jaddin has tried, for reasons not yet clear, to loosen the
village where he lives from the grips of Time (presumably to escape the Lunar
domination? Starbrow connections..?). The Lunars get wind (no pun intended)
of this, and carry out horrific reprisals against the village. Jamai, filled
with remorse, journeys back through time to the same village 2 years earlier
and tries to set the record straight...  and comes into contact with the PCs.

Now, quality, NPC motivation, and overall scenario structure aside, the 
obvious thing which occurred to me when reading this scenario was : "Hey!
You can't do that! Everyone knows time travel in Glorantha is impossible!
It breaks the Compromise!"

When my wife had successfully talked me back down from the lamppost, I
calmed down and started thinking about HeroQuests... (I know, I know...)
I mean, Steve Maurer talks about shadows of Balastor's Axe and all kinds of
stuff... And you _can_ change the mythological reality... (can't you? *sob*
*gnashings of uncertain teeth*)

What does everyone think? Is this scenario premise possible? 

Quite enough of that. I'm going for a lie down. :-)

Thanks for reading! 

Gambatte! 

Gary (Gary Newton / Isaac@twics.com)

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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: More Glorantha vs. Earth.
Message-ID: <9406040817.AA01307@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Jun 94 08:17:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4371


Devin Cutler:
> As regards the wording, a geas is a geas, and they were certainly under a
> compulsion, so my use of the term is justified.

Unfortunately for this argument, a "geas" doesn't mean a compulsion (outside
of D&D), and certainly not a non-magical one.  Then again, I'm not sure
what the justification for the use of the term in Glorantha and Shadowrun
to mean "magical restriction" is, either, since the word simply means
"enchantment", according to my Gaelic dictionary.

Me, unattributedly:
> "What part of Glorantha is (almost any of) modern-day earth a fruitful
> comparison for?"

> OK, scratch my use of "modern-day" and replace with "1st century AD".

Much more helpful.  I don't see the cynical, syncretic worship of the
Roman empire of that period as being much different from that of the
Lunar empire we know and loathe.  Or the Orlanthi from the pagan tribes
of northwest europe.  (In the general manner of their worship, not the
cultly or theological particulars.)

> "And if they believed they saw such activity, as many of them clearly did,
> ditto."

> Did they? And I mean did the majority of them witness weekly phsyically
> manifest miracles on a continual basis.

They believed they did, in many cases.  What constitutes a miracle is a
matter of interpretation.  I don't think exact frequency is a particularly
hot issue.  Mass guided teleportations get pretty old when you've seen a few,
anyway.

> What's more, did they partake of such
> miraculous power themselves (i.e. cast divine or spirit magics)? Saying there
> were people in pre-Renaissance times who truly believed in miracles is still
> different from the Gloranthan religious experience. A level of universality,
> repeatedness, and self experience is lacking in any Terran equivalent.

Universality of magic is no argument for a level of faith, or uniformity
of belief, in Glorantha unknown on earth.  After all, Gloranthans know that
people worshipping Bad Gods, and even no god at all, get magic, too.  Spirit
magic certainly isn't "evidence" of divinity of any sort, much less one
who believes and promulgates his own GoG writeup chapter and verse.  More
like a kind of cultic Predecessor Worship.

> "Reliable in what way?  Reliable as in "gives an answer which can be
> interpreted as indicating whether to accept the candidate", or reliable as
> in "gives a readout on his relevant skill numbers, moral values, personal
> qualities, and hidden motivations"?  Given the number of ogres floating round
> in "legitimate" cults, it's not what _I'd_ call reliable."

> The first instance of course. I was always under the impression that these
> Chaos infiltrators used Divination Block or became Lay Members only.

Well then, that's no reliability at all, since the god could answer on
whatever basis he feels like at that non-moment, not necessarily the letter
of cult entrance requirements.  "Yeah, sure, let him in.  Looks okay from
here.  Gotta run, playing full contact golf with Heler in half a non-hour."
Few actually specify "non-chaotic" as such, anyway.

Alex.

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From: rowe@soda.berkeley.edu (Eric Rowe)
Subject: Riddle #7: Answer 2
Message-ID: <199406040908.CAA02564@soda.berkeley.edu>
Date: 3 Jun 94 19:08:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4372


Now that the real answer has been given I'd also like to point out that
the alternate answer will be served as one of the main courses at the
Lunar Decadence Eat at Geo's at RQ CON 2. Yum.

eric

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From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Firewater
Message-ID: <940604100132_100270.337_BHL41-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 4 Jun 94 10:01:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4373

______________
David Gadbois:

> Back to Tanian:  it is clear that something should be there right where
> Fire and Water meet, assuming there is such an intersection ...  The
> conclusion I draw from this is that Fire and Water did not meet before
> the GLs did their thing.

Eurmal played a great joke once when he found out how to give water many of 
the properties of fire. Fortunate clans who know the secret can drink it in 
Sartar to this very day, and it's one of the trade items most coveted by 
Praxians. I'm not sure if the god of this distillation process is Tanian...

_____
Alex:

> I wonder if anywhere prisoners are tortured to death, resurrected,
> tortured to death again, etc?

Danfive Xaron, Irrippi Ontor and Etyries are united in their denials that 
this is any part of the Lunar Way. It is fortunate, O Alexius, that you 
confined yourself to speculation and prudently avoided making unsupported 
allegations. Otherwise you might be invited to find out the Truth for 
yourself...

______
Devin:

> I admit that I now do not know where I saw a scenario by Nick, but I'll
> go to my grave swearing that I did and I liked it-)

Tee hee! I've written scenarios in my time, but you'd have to sneak a peek 
into my refereeing files to see any of them. Still, to preserve harmony on 
the Net, I'll agree with you. If you ever saw one of my scenarios, I'm sure 
you'd have liked it. ;-)

====
Nick
====

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From: 100102.3001@CompuServe.COM (Peter J. Whitelaw)
Subject: Honour (?) Deity
Message-ID: <940604114446_100102.3001_BHJ50-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 4 Jun 94 11:44:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4374

Martin:
>Re: Peter Whitelaw's Honor (Deity)
>     I take it this means Honor of a Particular Cult, rather than
>(Give) Honor to a Particular God.  Honor is a concept that
>probably doesn't exist in Prax, though, and differs widely in
>areas that do have it. 

Fair comment.  Honour is not, perhaps, the most fitting term I might have used.
'Revere' might be more suitable.  

Were you implying that cults are more important than Gods? 

Whatever, the passion is a subjective interpretation.  I certainly concur that
interpretations will vary.

> Peter Michaels has some great ideas on
>this, which I will endeavor to get him to post.

Yes please!

>Either way, I didn't understand the SB example.

Ah. In its simplest terms I guess the interpretation of the difference in
Honour/Revere/Love Storm Bull scores between the two PC's that was made by the
players was as follows:

one had a profound hate of Chaos and joined SB because that was the most
expedient thing to do in order to further his quest (thereby making the cult the
vehicle for his ambition).  He is not particularly devout.

The other is devout and seeks to kill chaos because that is what being a SB is
all about.  Emulating the God he reveres so much is his ambition.

The bottom line is the same but the motivations are ever so slightly different.

>Re: Taskan Empire (non-Gloranthan postings)
>     I would ask that any further postings of the size of the
>last batch be made privately to those who request it.  I don't
>say this because I didn't like the stuff--I just haven't had a
>chance to look at it, nor do I anticipate having such time soon.

Again, fair comment.  I have posted the last lot to Henk who may take them out
of the Daily and send them to the regular Digest subscribers only.

****

Bill,  

Thanks for you kind words re the Crimson Tear.  

What I forgot to mention was that this was an item that I reserved for NPC's.
There are two such 'Red-eyes' in my campaign although the party have only met
one so far 

After one encounter with the proud owner you should have seen the lengths all
those Divine magic owning characters went to to avoid him.

It is possible that, in time of war, when the ranks of the Crimson Bat cult
swell there may be massed creation of Tears which would then be 'used' by
devotees who would form 'commando' units to infiltrate the ranks of enemy
priests and diminsh the magical resources available to them.  

Certainly, seeing a group of Red-eyes approaching would put the wind up many
opposing Divine magic users.

****

All the best,

Peter :-%


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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Tricksters, and Nick Brooke. Let me rephrase that.
Message-ID: <9406040941.AA01329@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Jun 94 09:41:16 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4375


John "XXXX" Hughes:
> I like to imagine Digest discussions as occurring late-night in some 
> boisterous Gloranthan pub - for me it conveys the right tone to the healthy 
> disagreements and constructive arguments that are our flatbread and cheese.

The Net Inn, perhap?  (Geddit?)

> Chaosium Trickster Write-Up:

> "THE FIREBRINGER: many people agree that Trickster, in one form or another, 
> stole fire from the darkness. Among the Pentans he was Raven, in Pamaltela he 
> was Hare, and for the Theyalans he was a Lightbringer. "

While contrariwise, the Dara Happans certainly don't.

> ** Trickster is certainly a murderer.
> 
> *   ;-)  We were debating whether _Eurmal_ is a Murderer, not
> * whether _some_ Trickster aspect is, which is somewhat evident from
> * GoG.  (Though my vote was "yes", anyway.)

> Ouch! :-[. Sorry. Our difference is that I regard Eurmal, like Bolongo, as a 
> definite 'mask', and the Trickster as a unitary universal manifestation 
> despite local variations. Yes, I know you can argue that for all the gods, 
> but the Chaosium cult write-up gives Trickster special emphasis in this regard.

This has some basis; all societies need tricksters, as someone once said.
This doesn't (necessarily) mean that all are literally one (set of) aspect(s)
of the same God, in full-blown GLerish sense.  Though then again, maybe they
are.  And even if they are, it _still_ doesn't answer the question of whether
Eurmal is worshipped/recognised as embodying the Murderer side of Pan-
Trickster.  Or to put it at its mundanest:  Is there a shrine to Where Did
You Get that Sword, Eurmal?  Put it Back at Once! anywhere in the Barbarian
Belt?

> SANDY'S DORADDI LINEAGES

> What you are suggesting seems to be a cognitive (unilateral) descent group 
> with matralineal bias, and negative marriage rules according to a lineage or 
> section system. Sectional systems are fairly common in SE Asia and
> ahem, :-), Australia, but they usually need to operate ON TOP OF an existing
> patralineal or matralineal system.

Eh?  If I understand this, you just said that Sandy's non-matrilineal
must, in fact, be matrilineal.  Or perhaps that it must have arisen as
a modification of a matrilineal one.  I'm further confused by not being
sure if we're discussing whether they are compatible As Is, or whether
they could have arisen from a common system over a non-huge time period.

> Because of this, I believe my article, the
> Pamalt Book and your suggestions are all ultimately compatible. (Not that I'm
> too worried, even among the Doraddi I believe there are HUNDREDS of different
> kinship systems.

Now this I heartily agree with.  While major differences, such as departure
from the elder/younger-husband/wife scheme, or the generally "`matriarchal'"
nature are unlikely, the detailed "rules" of kinship and marriage can vary
merrily from tribe to tribe.  Even, to a lesser extent, from clan to clan.
"Needlefruit folk passing strange.  Crucial role of guidefather's cousin in
coming-of-age ceremony completely overlooked by them.  However, many fine
young potential husbands, my daughter."

> Henk, what's happened to my Digest posting on the Alda-Chur fertility 
> festival? Have you been busy, or is my mail server mucking me around?

All those who think Henk's nodded off say "Oi!".

Nick de Brooke:
> ________________
> Graeme Lindsell:

> > I've never seen any reference to Hrestol being executed, much less how
> > he died - can you point me to one?

> Well, looks like my theory's the only one in town, and seems to plug a hole 
> in the mythos. As I said, there's no supporting evidence for *any* part of 
> the hypothesis. Take it or leave it.

I'm inclined to leave this one, myself.  Perhaps Hrestol lived on until
a ripe old age, bequeathing stewardship of Malkiondom to his appointed
successor:- the identity of whom about six factions simultaneously disagreed
about.  What's the hole that needs to be plugged, exactly?

Hrestol as Christ: just say Ick.

> >> ... an all-Yelmalion party making up a half-file of Sun Dome militia.

> > ... or some Herisarchary such as Multiple Characters Per Player?

> Retro me Satanus! Fie, oh fie! Why, the very notion!

Mind you, I suppose it should be borne in mind they _are_ Yelmalions.  If
ever the phrase "If two people agreed on everything, one of them would be
redundant" applied on a mass scale...

Alex.

---------------------

From: gec127@cent1.lancs.ac.uk (b hillesland)
Subject: Primal Powers
Message-ID: <14776.9406041928@cent1.lancs.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Jun 94 21:28:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4376

Speaking of Gata, Umath, and the elemental powers: 
I read somewhere (Elder Secrets?) that the beast men of Beast Valley
worship Arachne Solara.  Does anybody have something more on this?  
does she offer any kind of magical benefits to her worshippers?
(I really can't imagine).

and Speaking of Carmania/Arachne Solara-
There's a savage Hermit in my Glorantha who lurks on the outskirts of
Carmania, and identifies himself as the Great Prophet.  He is probably
50 years old, wears very simple clothing and these days spends most of
his time trying to get away from a big gang of folk from different regions
who wish to become his disciples.  The only company he keeps is that of his
familiars, a serpent and a hawk.  No one is sure where he comes from, 
though many guess he is simply a Carmanian who has studied much.
	The Great Prophet is an atheist sorcerer, who believes that the 
Invisible God is dead, killed through the actions of the God Learners.
Furthermore, he claims to have heroquested many times, and to have
defeated a great foe whom he calls the Spirit of Gravity.  He even 
claims to have spoken with Arachne Solara, who confirmed a horrible
truth: that the compromise was the most chaotic event in the history of 
the world.  In the great compromise, he claims, man accepted his 
smallness against Chaos and Darkness, and decided to hold hands with his
neighbor rather than help himself out and fight.  Man invented and continues
to invent a definition of chaos which he can use to destroy chaotic and non-
chaotic enemies out of petty revenge.  The Hatred Orlanth has for the Red Moon
is the perfect example- Orlanth claims to hate her because she is chaotic, but 
obviously he is only jealous that she controls the Middle sky, and he doesn't.
The truth of this Prophecy has only been revealed in the
creation of Nysalor/Gbaji, he says.  Nysalor is the perfect symbol of who 
we all are: deceivers. 
	What are we to do?  Nothing, for most of us, because we are too
weak, though we must try.  None of us can fully realize the horror that
we live in, that is something only the Greater Man can accomplish.  The
Greater Man is the man of the future, our only possibility, but we must
create him or her, and this may not even be possible.  We must get beyond
our current laws, break away from our ridiculous compromise, and create
our own individual definitions of law and chaos.  Finally, the Greater Man
will live one great heroquest and save himself.   Only then will we live
in a world of order and truth.

More information in Nietzsche's Thus Spoke Zarathustra (I'm just kidding
of course.  All that stuff on the Carmanian Heresy being like Zorastrianism
made me think of how Nietzsche's Zarathustra might translate in Gloranthan
terms.  It's no easy translation- any philo majors/profs out there?).

---------------------

From: ns10005@hermes.cam.ac.uk (N. Smith)
Subject: Runequest mailing list
Message-ID: 
Date: 4 Jun 94 22:45:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4377

	I apologise if this goes to anyone inappropriate, but I found an 
old mailing-list address and I am trying it with my fingers crossed!
	If this is the place to sign-up for the Runequest mailing-list, 
then please, please, please add me to it straight away.
	Thankyou for your time,
	Yours hopefully,
		Nigel Smith.