From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 07 Jun 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: gibberish Message-ID: <9406061627.AA11562@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 6 Jun 94 04:27:39 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4394 Devin Cutler asks: >I would like to know what pre-GL Jrustela was like As I recall, Jrustela was uninhabited by humans at the Dawn, and was colonized during the First Age. As I recall, most of the colonists came from Seshnela or Ralios. The fact that the God Learners had plenty of Theyalan worshipers may be an additional brick in the ediface supporting the theory that First-Age Malkioni were not so iconoclastic as those in the modern age. I seem to vaguely remember some early reference to the fact that the original Jrusteli were refugees of some sort. >what mechanism was present that stopped the Pelorians, the Seshnegi, >the Kralorelans, etc. from becoming the GL and allowed the Jursteli >to do so instead? Figuring out the Monomyth was a non-trivial task. There was no "mechanism" preventing anyone else from doing it -- it was simply a different way of looking at the world, which also required a great deal of skill, magic power, and wealth to perfect. A lot has been said in these pages about the different world-views held in Glorantha, contrasting the Western wizards' view with the Kralori mystics with the Lunarian mode of thinking, etc. IMO, the God Learners represented yet another style of thought, one now extinct (ditto for the Empire of the Wyrm's Friends). In essence, the God Learners looked at the world as do minimaxers -- like it was all just a big winnable game. But in the same way that a Malkioni Wizard, a Lunar examiner, and a Doraddi shaman have contrasting world-views that cannot easily be reconciled, so did the Jrusteli, the EWF, and the Kralori. In the case of the Kralori, the Jrusteli magics proved more powerful, and they were able to conquer them. The EWF magic proved at least as strong (maybe stronger), and they resisted the God Learner blandishments. As one EWF spokesman said, "They have breadth, while we have depth." I myself believe that the EWF and GL thinking patterns were as near to opposite poles as it's possible to get and still be human. Alex Ferguson mentions: >Western Saints have haloes. Western Saints have haloes? >> I bet the High Holy Day prayer for Storm Bull includes lengthy >> mentions and evocations of Ernalda, Eiritha, Zorak Zoran, etc. >Wouldn't that involve having initiates with an actual attention >span? I suspect the evocations of Ernalda and Eiritha are highly popular among the Storm Bulls. And since being drunk tends to heighten desire while decreasing ability, I'm sure the "evocation" takes a plenty long time. Admittedly, the Zorak Zoran part of the ceremony may be no more than an extended series of toasts. "Here's to ZZ" while everyone hefts mugs of kvass. >Actually, I think the Hrestol maintain the one-female-caste >situation. Or else they have very funny rules for promotion among >women. What happens when one of a married couple is promoted? >Spouse is bumped up too? Society is shocked by a mixed-caste >marriage? Divorce? Of course, for all real purposes, a wife is >going to be measured by her husband's status (or her father's; >moral: don't be an unmarried female orphan), so this is a minor >matter, pragmatically. On the other hand, I have convinced myself that the Hrestoli follow the full four-caste system for women. Since everyone is supposed to move up in caste (or at least, is allowed to), I don't think there's any stigma whatsoever in a mixed-caste marriage. This may not hold true for the Rokari, if their women are also part of the Big Four castes. I think that a Hrestoli woman is whatever caste she is, regardless of her husband's rank. Most women probably stay "farmers" all their life. But any woman who wants to rise through the ranks I'm sure can become a female warrior, wizard, and even lord. >I'm not sure if Jonatela has a Hrestoli-type sect, or a heresy >of its own The Jonatings are a heresy all their own. Among other unique features, they have hardly any Farmer Caste members. In fact, the "Farmer" castelings are actually Ernalda worshipers, who have nothing to do with the Invisible God. >I'm not sure what the Official Rokari situation might be, but I'll >bet that even if all women are notionally of a single caste, they >are de facto members of their parents' caste, and people are >scandalised if a wizard's daughter marries a knight. I concur, but once the knight has done the scandalous thing and outmarried, I bet the wizard's daughter is considered to be a knight. Remember that technically, the Official Rokari line is that All Castes Are Equal. This is their big propaganda point against the Hrestoli, among whom it's clear that (since they're a meritocracy) the lower castes are supposedly inferior. >> The king formed the Order of the Swallow to combat the Kingdom of >> War. It is hard to tell who is more eager for the fight. Nick murmurs: >absolutely chilling. I mean: the Kingdom of War exists only to fight >wars. And maybe some Loskalmi are *even keener* than they are to >fight?! Sheesh! The Loskalmi Knights Caste exists only to fight wars, too, y'know. And the text indicates that they're eager for "the fight" meaning the fight between KoW and Loskalm, not just for any random massacre. But it's clear the Loskalmi are a warlike folk. On the other hand, there're few pacifistic Gloranthan cultures. The Orlanthi? The Pelorians? The Praxians? The closest thing to non-violent folk we got are the Elamle peninsula folk, the Doraddi, and the East Isles. And the Doraddi can fight in a pinch. MOB opines: >I think if you're looking for an example of an "enormous >...thinly-populated" country, the United States does not readily >come to mind. Consider: The continental United States is >approximately the same SIZ as Australia, yet has almost FOURTEEN >TIMES the population! Now see here. In the First Place, I was contrasting the U.S. to Europe, which is clearly way overpopulated and due for another war or Black Death. In the second place, your Aussie interior IS, as you say, exceedingly underpopped. The result is that I suspect (without personal experience, so far) that your populated areas are as dense as or denser than the populated areas of the United States. Seeing as all of you live in only 5 cities, whereas if you took the five most-populous cities of the U.S., you wouldn't even reach 20%, so clearly Australia has a much denser group for purposes of RQing. So there. Nyeahh. David D. >> the East Wilds, parts of which you describe as "near-desert" in >>Gloranthan Bestiary). Jonas Schiott: >I would assume these near-desert areas are Vustria and Karia, which >are technically part of the East Wilds. The Bestiary does say >"north-east", doesn't it? The Bestiary says northeast of Safelster. Only the "driest" of the hill country are near-desert. You'll find the near-desert in Corolaland and Ormsland, I believe. Vustria isn't so bad. That is, it's drier than Sartar, but it's not desert by any stretch of the imagination. Brown grass in summer, tho. (Like in Italy). >Making every centaur in Glorantha a EWF hybrid on the basis of one >vague comment in KoS is a bit much. There's more to it than that, I believe. All the beast-men in Dragon Pass are supposedly an EWF experiment. The beast-men in Seshnela are supposedly a GL experiment, or some of them may be descendents of the GL, transformed during the final disaster. The beast-men in Pamaltela are remnants of the Six-Legged Empire. On the other hand, the Kivitti and certain other beastly hybrids are probably the result of degenerate Hsunchen. Whereas Wind Children and mermen are the spawn of unholy Godtime unions. In general, beast-men (including centaurs) in Glorantha are the result of Frankenstein-type experiments, but the various different groups of them all have different root sources, of course. This doesn't mean that there aren't other possible beast-men origins out there. For that matter, the centaurs, minotaurs, and so forth may each have a different origin. The ducks were classified with the beast-men for a long time, and they manifestly have a completely different origin. And where do "satyrs" fit in? I don't even think that the Wonderwood centaurs and the Seshnegi centaurs come from a common source. I suspect Seshnegi are a GL remnant, while Wonderwood are Something Else. >BTW, do you _have_ to have dogs to herd sheep? Can't you just have a >lot of young boys running around (gives 'em some exercise...)? In Utah today, most sheepherders don't use dogs. They just ride their horses alongside the sheep and keep 'em together. It's probably not as cost-effective as using dogs, though. No doubt it's hard to use dogs when the herdsmen are mounted, or something. (And they HAVE to be mounted in the terrain they traverse.) Maybe Mastakos, with fine Mobility spells, is the god of choice for young boy sheepherders in the Eastern Wilds? Keith the newbie says: >On this subject, I'm trying to get a grasp of dwarves. Their god >(and only god) is the Maker, who is signified with 2 statis runes. >Are their any other Gods that possess this rune? Hmm. There DOES seem to be quite a shortage of stasis-oriented gods around. Off-hand, the only two I can think of are Lhankor Mhy (who's sometimes given the Law rune instead) and the turtle god. Most city gods have the stasis rune, too. My suspicions are that during the turmoil of the God Time, most stasis gods were unable to adapt to changing circumstances, and so were weeded out. Alex says: > I'm assuming that Malkioni have a text... maybe they DON'T if its > all oral then distortion is very easy! The only root texts they have I imagine to be the writings of Hrestol. If Malkion wrote anything down (likely), it may have been lost over the ages, or distorted by the Brithini, who kept the records. Zzabur, of course, wrote down plenty of stuff, but it's hardly "sacred writings". Other saints probably wrote stuff, too, and it is probably canonized, though not as highly-rated as Hrestol's texts, or whatever debased version of Malkion everyone uses. In any case, Hrestol's writings, being written for the use of folks who didn't have any heresies yet, is probably easily misinterpreted hundreds of exciting ways. I bet Hrestol's stuff isn't NEARLY as clear as the Bible ;) Dave Gadbois: >Back to Tanian: it is clear that something should be there right >where Fire and Water meet, assuming there is such an intersection. >The problem I have is that the is no other mention of Tanian except >at the Battle of the Burning Sea, and one would expect him to appear >in some other myths purely on the basis of his position The GL never claimed to have "invented" Tanian. They made very few gods out of whole cloth (and were remarkably proud of their attempts to do so). Tanian was, however, an incredibly obscure entity. What the GL did with him (besides make him a worshipable god), was to define him in a useful way -- the question was, is Tanian a God of Fire who influences Water? Or is he a God of Water with attributes of Fire? They defined him as the former, so that he could burn water. Presumably if they'd defined him as the latter, he'd produce water that wouldn't extinguish Fire, or wouldn't boil away, or something else useless for their purposes. Tanian is little-mentioned in modern Gloranthan texts because he was Forbidden after the GL demise. Of all Gods, it is clear that widespread use of Tanian is potentially disastrous -- sort of a thermonuclear kind of threat. If the waters of the world caught on fire, how would the blaze be extinguished? It would be as big a catastrophe as the destruction of the Artmali Empire. Or worse. Tanian became Forbidden because he was too scary to have around. Now the heroquest paths leading to him are all blocked and secret, so anyone wanting to re-establish his faith has a big job cut out. >there is evidence that before the Dara Happans and Theyalans met up >in the first age, DH myths didn't mention Orlanth, by any >recognisable name, nor the Theyalans, Yelm. When they met up they >"realized" each mentioned (and villainised) the other. Yes, but certainly the God Learners had nothing to do with this particular big of Monomythizing -- it was obviously the result of the First Council's activities way back when. So not all the Monomyth are the result of GL "lies and propaganda". >> The God Learners didn't destroy any continents, and would >> have prevented the damage if they could. Let's not blame the >>victims. >Okay, "necessitated the destruction of a continent or so". That's better. Now I'm happy. ;) Isaac from Japan: >>If the former, then the draining of the Fens must have been Second >>Age...? Almost certainly. There was no one around in the First Age with the time or resources to do it that I can think of. They were all otherwise engaged, either in awakening folks to the new reality or (later on) in hugely destructive wars. Paul Reilly: >Subere is, IMO, one of those deities NOT dependent on mortal >worship. You bet. She's also one of the Source Gods, like Orlanth, Mastakos, and Magasta. Of course, Orlanth is a little more beneficial to potential followers, but I regard this as his friendly nature -- desire to help others, not as a need for worship, which I don't believe he has any more than Subere. Graeme Lindsell mentions: > While I like this idea, are the Lunars that sophisticated? Even >with the magic,they are Bronze age culture. Don't confuse the quality of the metal used with the cultural sophistication of a society. As I read more and more history, I become more and more amazed with the political and mercantile expertise of the "ancients". Read Themistocles to see what I mean -- it'll give you a whole new look at the Cold War. IMO an ancient Roman rabble-rouser, once he learned the language, would eat American politicos alive for breakfast. >by the dawn Zzabur was the only person who would actually have known >Malkion. Unless he spoke to Mostali or Mistress Trolls or something, which is doubtful. And let's not forget that Zzabur is evil enough to lie. Certainly evil enough to withhold the knowledge of Solace from the Brithini for his own ends. Perhaps 'tis the Brithini who represent the massive God Scam of Glorantha, not the other Malkioni. Hal Mangold mentions: >I seem to also remember a whole bunch of RQ article from White Dwarf >that also were not included. The one that comes most readily to mind >was one dealing with Gloranthan demons. I remember those articles. Citadel even put out a set of miniature figures for the RQ demons. I remember thinking that the stats listed for the demons were pretty stinky, but that the figures themselves were real neat (I have a set). One of them is a fleshy blob all covered with eyes and mouths. I use it regularly for Call of Cthulhu. >Did evrybody check out the new issue of Dragon magazine? Sandy >has an article in there on a rather unique Draconic entity. Thanks for mentioning it. Nils W: >If you people liked it I might return with more from the scrolls >of Red Tiger. I'm game. --------------------- From: Mike.Dickison@vuw.ac.nz (Mike Dickison) Subject: Trader Prince stuff (to forward please) Message-ID: <199406060144.AA15095@rata.vuw.ac.nz> Date: 7 Jun 94 01:46:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4388 I've been following the Aeolian Church debate with one eye. My campaign is in Wenelia, and I find the tension between the hairy barbarians and the aristocracy an interesting one. Here's my interpretation of the effects, from the noble point of view, taken from my character generation rules. Note that it's JUST MY OPINION, but since there's a dearth of published material on this I though I might as well post it and see what people think. Also note that: 1) There are only a few members of royal lineage amongst the Wenelian barbarians, who are insular and have no real power since the Opening took away their trade routes. There is little social contact between them and their "subjects", and the barbarians most certainly don't attend Invisible God services or learn sorcery. The "Kings" (actually Warlords, like Greymane) of the tribes are a whole 'nother ballgame, and work much like KoS. 2) I hate the words sorceror and wizard. The procurators here act as sages, advisors and lawspeakers, and formerly traders. The traditional educational quadrivium amongst the Henotheists is Speech, Script (including lores), Trade, and Faith (including a little sorcery). 3) No cathedrals, just family shrines. The scriptoria in the coastal cities are churches/libraries/knowledge temples/monasteries, attended by inland nobility only on high holy days. The Ralians who started the inland trade routes never expected to stay, and still consider themselves very much a part of Western society, though most Westerners would consider them ludicrously provincial. 4) I felt a bit Nicked by his recent posting on Wenelian gods, though I like the array he presents. I think Wenelians (which is what I call the barbarians; Orlanthi seems misleading, since they don't call their storm god Orlanth) are much more superstitious and violent than Sartarites, and generally uncivilised, something like the Roman sterotype of the Germanic marauders. Henotheist Nobles The Trader Prince nobility of the Wenelian tribes, an inbred remnant of the original Ralian explorers. Occupations: NOBLE: All the Trader Princes are noble by birth, but spend little time with their supposed subjects, preferring the company of their own order. SKILLS: As Civilised Noble, plus Speak Ralian x 3, Vernacular x 2, Read/Write Western x 3, Intensity x 2, Ceremony x 2. APPRENTICE: At age 21, many nobles spend a year or two studying at the city scriptoria before taking on lordly responsibilities. Applicants must roll one of Intensity, Ceremony, Write Western, or World Lore. Sometimes younger sons and daughters become apprentices permanently, intending one day to be procurators. This requires a POW x 3 and at least a 10% Magic Bonus as well. SKILLS: Orate x 2, Bargain x 2, Sing x 2, Speak Ralian x 1, Speak Coastal x 1, Any Lore x 2, Any Other Lore x 1, Read/Write Western x 3, Devise x 1, Ceremony x 3, Intensity x 2, Spells x 9. PROCURATOR: The holy and chaste adept wizards of Wenelia. Some are advisors to royalty, others sages in the scriptoria. Procurators dress like other nobility, but wear an ornamental talis as a symbol of their learning. Apprentices may become Procurators when they gain 75% in Bargain, Ceremony, Intensity, and two spells, and roll POW x 2. SKILLS: Fast Talk x 2, Orate x 2, Bargain x 2, Sing x 1, Speak Ralian x 1, Speak Coastal x 1, Read/Write Western x 2, Speak Other Language x 2, Evaluate x 2, Any Lore x 4, Devise x 2, Any Sorcery Skills x 5, Spells x 7, Staff Attack and Parry x 1. Cultural Weapons: As for the appropriate kingdom, plus: attack only - Lance (30) Equipment: as per Civilised Noble, Apprentice and Adept respectively. Magic: Sorcery, learnt at the scriptoria at the rate of 1 spell per year. Preferred (in order) are Worship Invisible God, Open Seas (for the Dormal-patroned), See Rune Magic, Treat Wounds, Neutralize Magic, Sight Projection. Cults: The Invisible God. All families have St Issa the Golden Tongued as a patron saint (6 POW, Path Watch), and at least one other from Hrestol, Malkion, Gerlant, Nomia, Waertag or Dormal (Var., 1 x Predict Weather per point previously devoted, all cast on successive days). [See Sandy's recently-posted Saints rules] Language: Ralian and the local vernacular (Solanthi, Nimistori, Ditali, or Bastisi). The former is used for all intra-family and religious occasions. Western is also learned as a written language, for records and poetry. And this is how I picture the last 40 years of local history. When Dormal opened the oceans, Handra suddenly became a strategic trading port. Sea trade between Ralios, Nolos and Esrolia was much faster than following the inland Trade Paths maintained by the Wenelian kingdoms. Very quickly, the barbarian towns became a backwater. The procurators, once highly esteemed as the bringers of wealth to the tribes, lost much of their power and retreated to the scriptoria. The tribespeople began to pay less attention to the strictures of their rulers and more to the fighting talk of charismatic warriors like Greymane. Sometimes aggression and the desire for plunder was directed against former allies like Esrolia; usually it fell on the clan across the river. Handra of course was overjoyed at this reversal. The cities of the New Coast were not so happy. Although they became the main source of manufactured goods for the Wenelians, every few years some young hothead would muster a small confederacy and lead it, thirsting for loot, to the city gates. Usually these raids ended in a standoff between well-equipped militia defending the walls and wild young yahoos tired and far from home. Not always, though - twenty years ago, Fay Jee was sacked by a Nimistori army, and most of its merchant fleet hijacked. The Trader Princes, always aloof from the surrounding barbarians, became positively insular. They retreated to their castles and forts, and concentrated on religion, poetry and marriage brokery. Although still respected by the tribespeople, what little authority they had ever exercised was gone, and they became exotic and charismatic figureheads, with some force of moral righteousness but no actual power. Most now reminisce fondly about their grandfather's day, while closing off an extra wing of the castle. The Wenelians themselves did not adjust well to the usurption of their trading rights. They had become accustomed to fine weapons and jewellery, which now became treasured heirlooms. Tribal alliances began to fragment, and clan jealousies came to the fore. Periodically warriors would be roused by a warlord, and would roll across the plains in an ever-increasing avalanche to break against Esrolia, the most despised of the civilised nations nearby. In between raiding, clan politics predominated, as each chieftain sought to increase his influence and secure a source of wealth for his descendants. Mike Dickison \ If an infinite number of rednecks, in an infinite number Science writer \ of pickup trucks, fire an infinite number of shotgun Wellington, N.Z. rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, adzebill@matai.vuw.ac.nz \ they will eventually produce all the world's (Thanx to J. Banker, Ariz.!) \ great literary works in Braille. --------------------- From: swj@liverpool.ac.uk (Mr S.W. Jones) Subject: Line Message-ID: <9406060840.AA10736@uxg.liv.ac.uk> Date: 6 Jun 94 10:40:23 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4389 Not really flavour of the month topic, but I could do with some help. Does anyone, or will anyone mail me the locations of the tribes of Sartar re. the tribes map from Tales#6 by Walter Moore, as I can't get hold of this, and it would prove very useful. Simon Jones (swj@liv.ac.uk.)