From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 08 Jun 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham) Subject: initiation scenario; New Pelorian Message-ID: <199406070816.AA26226@radiomail.net> Date: 7 Jun 94 08:16:58 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4402 Mike Dawson said >About David Dunham's Campaign write-up >REally good, even though it was about...initiation. While I can take credit for the writeup and being GM, Jonas Schiott sent me the actual scenario. Readers of this Daily may note that the characters ended up as both initiates of Orlanth and adults; whether there was a time when they were one but not the other doesn't matter. David Gadbois suggested >New Pelorian should break all the linguistic rules we >know of. [weird example deleted] Why? New Pelorians are humans. They should form languages in the way that humans do. And if it's related to Dara Happan and all the Farmer Languages, it should be grammatically simpler, so that all subjects can learn it more easily. Sam wonders >how >they *do* grow grapes is a mystery - A secret pact with Yelmic types?.."you >supply the sun - we'll supply cheap wine. Oh, I forgot - you don't drink" Maybe this is an advantage of Elmal over Yelmalio -- they'll help out with the grapes? Plus, the Grazers are "Yelmic types" who are very much into drinking, if they're anything at all like Scythians or Mongols. >White Dwarf ... published >Stats'n'info on different kinds of horses - including Wingana and Rockwood >Mountain pony - We used this a lot. I could dig it up if you fancy. I fancy! Sam and Harald both asked about campaign writeups. Having perpetrated mine on y'all, how could I protest? I do try to use the terse Icelandic saga style to keep them from boring people with excessive length. Jonas said >I'm not up on all these weird solar deity names (haven't had time to >look into GRoY yet) Yu-kargzant and Jardan are both in King of Sartar; the family relation is my invention. --------------------- From: lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au (Graeme Lindsell) Subject: Newspeak Pelorian Message-ID: <9406070857.AA19328@Sun.COM> Date: 7 Jun 94 23:56:16 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4403 Sandy replies: >Don't confuse the quality of the metal used with the cultural >sophistication of a society. But I can use it to determine the technical sophistication of the society - like lack of the printing press, universal literacy and other things needed to get a standardised language. [Of course, the standardized Lunar forms given in Pavis and the Big Rubble imply they do have the printing press, but I think they're an anachronism. Not that documents and forms weren't needed in the past, just that they weren't that stadardised] >Certainly evil enough to withhold the knowledge of Solace from the Brithini >for his own ends. Yes, quite possibly. One question about Zzabur and the Brithini - would Zzabur actually take _orders_ from his Talar? Excepting the possibility that Zzabur's "Talar" is a remote controlled simulacrum. But if we accept Zzabur lying and changing the past the scenario can become completely paranoic ie Malkion never existed but was a propaganda device created by Zzabur, that Hrestol's revelation was an attempt to reduce the number of Brithini sorcerers who could threaten Zzabur's position etc. Rather similar to the various "the God Learners completely changed that, it used to be like xxx" a bit futile in the end. James Wadsley writes: >but everything I read seems to put all the cards in the Lunar hand. Have you read "King of Sartar" yet? While the Lunars still have the edge, they lose an awful lot when they ran into technical difficulties setting up the Temple of the Reaching Moon in Sartar. "We apologize for the inconvenience. Normal transmission of the Glowline will be restored as soon as possible" >While I'm here, I might as well put in my vote for the Crimson Bat being >obscene. Seconded. It's stats are totally pointless IMO. Nick re Newspeak Pelorian >Reread the appendix to 1984. The same applied to Ingsoc Newspeak. Another thing in favour of your idea is that like Newspeak New Pelorian is the language of a new ruling class. I suspect that only bureaucrats and nobles can speak New Pelorian "properly"; the peasants version can be understood, but doesn't show real understanding... >Loyal to the Group of Seventeen's story from "Citadel of the Autarch" One of my favourites, and I'm kicking myself for not suggesting it, since I reread the Book of the New Sun last month. >The Lunar Empire is merely the first of these; its final >"destruction" by Argrath (inter alia) is the prelude to rebirth in a >wholly different form. This has *always* been Lunar doctrine. I would prefer "it's always been the doctrine of _some_ of the Lunar philosophers". I doubt even the Lunars have a single doctrine about this, and many of the Lunars circa 1620 believe the empire will rule the whole world within a few generations, not 100+. In fact there might be areas where expressing that attitude is considered un-Lunar. >Of course, the Lunar state language is far less rigid/barren than those of I can't recall: was New Pelorian a deliberate construction, or was it adopted? In your theory, the relation of New to Old Pelorian would be the same as Newspeak to English ie a deliberate contraction of Old Pelorian constructs. -- Graeme Lindsell a.k.a lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au Research School of Chemistry, Australian National University, Canberra. "I was 17 miles from Greybridge before I was caught by the school leopard" Ripping Yarns - Tomkinson's Schooldays. --------------------- From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK Subject: Execution of Parricides Message-ID: <9406070900.AA19652@Sun.COM> Date: 7 Jun 94 09:01:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4404 Ref: Paul Reilly In Rome parricides were executed by being brutally whipped ALL over while being forced to stand with their legs spread wide appart on two stone blocks. Then they are forced (to crawl) into a large leather sack and a dog (most craven of creatures), a monkey (parody of a man), a viper and a cock (with sharpened beak and claws) are forced in too. The sack is then sealed and put into the Tiber. It is allowed to float down the river and out to sea. Special watchers are posiitoned beside the river to push to sack off if it becomes grounded. The idea is a kind of negative birth. The romans thought this crime was so abhorent that they thought it would be better if the parricide had never been born. This features in Roman Blood by Steven Saylor (previously advertised here by Nick) which I have just finished reading and can heartily recommend. It is a nice mix of decadence, cruelty and scheming... Lewis --------------------- From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) Subject: The Emperor who had No Clothes Message-ID: <940607092716_100270.337_BHL55-1@CompuServe.COM> Date: 7 Jun 94 09:27:17 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4405 OK. You asked for it. This is the story I *won't* be telling at Convulsion... -------------------------------------------------- This is the Tale of the Emperor who had no Clothes and the Shadow who took them in his stead and what came of it -------------------------------------------------- Long ago, before the Moon, there was an Emperor in the Rich Land who wanted to know how his people fared -- for new laws were proposed to him, yet he could learn nothing of their merits. He asked the wise men of his Senate, but though they tried they could not tell him, for they were all nobles and unaware of how things went among the common folk. He asked his loyal servants, but they could not tell him either, for they did not know what words they might use to speak with him. So he resolved to learn for himself. One evening, as the orb left him, the Emperor put off his golden robes, laid down his golden sceptre, and set aside his golden crown. He dressed in the kilt of a common labourer, and left the palace to go unrecognised through the streets of the city. And that night he learned many things. He discovered much of what the people of the Rich Land thought of their lives, and of their ruler and his nobles, and of how the new laws that were urged upon him by the Senate and the Priests would please or displease them. He formed a new resolve as to how he should rule, and as dawn broke he left the low dwellings of the people and returned to his splendid palace. But when he had left the palace, his Shadow (which had dwelt with him all his life) had stayed behind, unnoticed in the darkness. And in the blackest part of the night it stood, and clad itself in the royal robes of gold, and circled its head with the crown, and lifted the sceptre in what passed for its hand. The Shadow called for the Senate to meet, though it was past midnight, and the servants carried its message. The old men were brought from their homes through the dark streets to join him, wagging their heads and tugging their beards at the strangeness of this novelty. Then the Emperor's Shadow began to rule. It gave the strangest commands that had ever been heard in the Rich Land: that the holy fires should be extinguished, that women should be permitted on the streets, that a banquet of filth should be provided for the people, that their children should be sent away into the lands of Death. These things and many others it asked. And the Senate could but wonder at its intent. The old men looked at the figure they took to be their ruler, but they did not see that it was but a Shadow of a man cloaked in the golden robes of rule. Their eyes were dazzled by the splendour of its robes; none saw that there was but a dried and empty husk where a man's face should be. "Aha," they said, "our Emperor is testing us. He wishes to discover if there is anything we would not do for him. But our loyalty to him is unconditional, and we will do these absurd things, if he wills it. It will not take long for us to prove ourselves, and then this unheard-of folly will cease." So they acquiesced, and the orders were made. But now it was that the true Emperor returned to the palace. As he moved through his inner chambers to return to the place where he had left his regalia, he was seen by a slave, who cried out at the sight of an intruder (so he thought) in the heart of the palace. The guard came running, and seized the man, and dragged him before the Shadow where it sat in council. "This man is a common thief and a murderer," the Shadow decreed. "At high noon tomorrow, he shall be impaled for the pleasure of mighty Yelm." And the Senate applauded his wisdom and justice, for this was ever the way of things in the Rich Land. You see, just as they could not tell the Shadow for his rich robes, so they did not recognise the Emperor when the outward signs of his glory had been stripped from him. So the Emperor passed a miserable morning in the Pits under sentence of death, while in the city streets the proclamation of his Shadow's decrees proceeded apace. And at high noon he was taken from that dreadful place and led to where an impaling stake had been made ready for him, outside the palace. Priests, Senate and People crowded round to see the justice of this punishment; the Shadow itself was there, to gloat over the discomfiture of its former owner. But as the executioners were seizing their rightful lord and lifting him to his place atop the pole, there came a cry from the crowd. For a young boy who was there had looked at the real Emperor, and this child was young enough that he saw things as they were, and not as they seemed to be. And he cried out, "That's the Emperor they're killing; it IS him, even though he has no clothes!" And with that recognition of his power and right, the mighty imperial orb descended again to the Emperor and hovered above him. All things were set to rights. The Shadow fell discomfited to beg for mercy at his feet. And since that day, the shadows of good men have ever lain at the feet of their masters and not done evil as they willed it, not even after nightfall. The Emperor knew from his experiences that he should not have gone secretly among the people, abandoning his rightful place. Instead, he commanded the people to send a delegation to him, whenever there were matters afoot that concerned them. And this is why we have the Tribunes to speak for us in the councils of the mighty. The eyes of the people were opened and they swore that they must never make this mistake again. And this is why every Emperor shows himself bare even to the loincloth before his investiture, so that his servants will recognise him even without his regalia. The Senate, too, saw their folly, and vowed never again to be taken in by such frauds. And so it happened; for when in later years another Emperor proposed such blasphemous decrees, the Senate knew at once that he was no true Emperor, but the evil Shadow of what an Emperor should be. They straightaway put him to death. And sure enough, when they had done so, the real Emperor returned to them. Though he was dressed in commoner's clothes, the Senate could recognise him at once, and girt him about with the robes and regalia that were rightly his. And the Emperor ruled wisely and fairly, as they had known that he would once restored to the highest dignity. Thus it was, in the days before the Moon. ==== Nick ==== --------------------- From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) Subject: Fishing Cats Message-ID: <940607092729_100270.337_BHL55-2@CompuServe.COM> Date: 7 Jun 94 09:27:29 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4406 __________ Sam wrote: > I am also looking for ideas about; the Cinder Pits, Tarndisi's Grove, > Larnste's Table etc.. RQ Adventures Fanzine #1 has a lot of neat details about this part of the world. Tom Zunder used to distribute it in the UK (are you still out there, Tom?), and I know the German RQers print a European edition. RQA is a good thing, IMHO; there have been plenty of worthwhile ideas in every issue so far -- and the latest one doesn't even have any Ducks! (Hurrah!) > I have been writing up my Sartar Campaign. Anyone want a copy? A fair bit > of the background has been filched but the characters and adventures are > all original (well, with a few apoligies to Goscini & Uderzo). I'd love to see anything from your game! Agree about the lakes. Nice things. Fishing cats, too. Sandy: doesn't Dayzatar have the Stasis rune? The Sky Dome is shaped like one, after all. In my games, Yelmalio has a strong Stasis association, for contrast with the Orlanthi way of war. The Stasis rune's shape can be used to represent a hoplite's curved shield, and phalanx tactics depend on a static formation retaining its strength and cohesion in the face of the enemy. Not like those mobs of screaming, skirling barbarians... ==== Nick ==== --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Joerg rambling Message-ID:Date: 7 Jun 94 11:44:11 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4407 Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 4394 > As I recall, Jrustela was uninhabited by humans at the Dawn, > and was colonized during the First Age. As I recall, most of the > colonists came from Seshnela or Ralios. The fact that the God > Learners had plenty of Theyalan worshipers may be an additional brick > in the ediface supporting the theory that First-Age Malkioni were not > so iconoclastic as those in the modern age. > I seem to vaguely remember some early reference to the fact > that the original Jrusteli were refugees of some sort. Usually those political or religious factions not in power are the likeliest candidates for emigration. This might also include Theyalans migrated forcibly, not unlike the Saxon dispersion practised by Charlemagne. All the transport had been provided by the Waertagi. What was their motivation to aid the enemy of their old-time allies, the Brithini? Did they (too) remember Malkion's teachings of Solace Zzabur and his brothers (at least Talar and Horal) had forbidden to the Brithini? (While I'm at it, what made them spread the (brown) Vadeli from their island remnants of former greatness across the world's ports?) Wasn't the northern part of what was to become Jrustela shown on the Troll Pak maps as Vadeli colonies in the Golden Age? What became of these? (And do you know anything about the Awesome Bridge shown in that map?) [Tanian] > If the waters of the world caught on > fire, how would the blaze be extinguished? It would be as big a > catastrophe as the destruction of the Artmali Empire. Or worse. How big was this catastrophe? What exactly did it consist of? What did Filth-Which-Walks and Qualyorni/Moorgarki do to the empire? Do you have details on this pre-Dawn Lunar Empire, and its fall? Other than the tantalizing bits e.g. in Tales 10 (the Kareeshtu Warsail), the Annilla write-up in Troll Gods and in general Gloranthan history? More like e.g. the myth how Bolongo acting as the Artmali Emperor (whom he had disposed of by hiding him in a tea-pot) saved the empire by being mistaken for the true emperor and abducte by the Storm Demons (doubtless the Vadrudi)? > Paul Reilly: > >Subere is, IMO, one of those deities NOT dependent on mortal > >worship. > You bet. She's also one of the Source Gods, like Orlanth, > Mastakos, and Magasta. Of course, Orlanth is a little more beneficial > to potential followers, but I regard this as his friendly nature -- > desire to help others, not as a need for worship, which I don't > believe he has any more than Subere. Then how and why does the Red Goddess' progress pull Orlanth from power? I had the impression that by conquering all the Theyalan peoples which had spread from Kerofinela (Dragon Pass) and undercutting their worship of Orlanth the Lunar Empire claimed to have overcome the Storm King of Gods, and to have replaced him effectively with the Goddess, and the Orlanthi propagandists say the same, and that by removing Orlanth from power the Lunars endanger the Universe by breaking the Compromise. All of it just propaganda? Mike Dickison in X-RQ-ID: 4388 presents his views of the Wenelians. Interesting stuff, more of it, please! > Also note that: > 1) There are only a few members of royal lineage amongst the Wenelian > barbarians, who are insular and have no real power since the Opening took > away their trade routes. Royal lineage amongst the barbarians: Do you mean native barbarian royalty, or imported Ralian royalty? > There is little social contact between them and > their "subjects", and the barbarians most certainly don't attend Invisible > God services or learn sorcery. Not even I would have made them. > The "Kings" (actually Warlords, like > Greymane) of the tribes are a whole 'nother ballgame, and work much like > KoS. Or even more primitive, like the early Germanic god-descended nobles who could claim kingship as soon as they commanded a war-band? (For eamples of this, read the Heimskringla, lots of instances of this.) > 2) I hate the words sorceror and wizard. The procurators here act as sages, > advisors and lawspeakers, and formerly traders. The traditional educational > quadrivium amongst the Henotheists is Speech, Script (including lores), > Trade, and Faith (including a little sorcery). Don't the Trader Princes a) keep up the caravans as a religious duty and b) (evil thought) don't they sponsor the Wenelian pirates? Script: Being the "Issarian heresy" in my discussions, what script do they use? Tradetalk? Western? (I think that written Tradetalk is a crude form of Western, well suited for traders because there is only one written form of Western, even though the spoken languages mostly are only distantly related. Such a script, whatever it looks like, seems to be the perfect tool for communication. And since Issaries' "son" Garzeen roamed Seshnela (where he wed the daughter of King Froalar), I think it likely that written Tradetalk could have used this as the base of its script.) > 3) No cathedrals, just family shrines. The scriptoria in the coastal cities > are churches/libraries/knowledge temples/monasteries, attended by inland > nobility only on high holy days. The Ralians who started the inland trade > routes never expected to stay, and still consider themselves very much a > part of Western society, though most Westerners would consider them > ludicrously provincial. What about the coastal cities: Who are their citizens? Survivors of Slontos, mixed with some native elements plus immigrants from Ralios? What are the religious practises of the city-dwellers? A henotheist combination of Wenelian deities, city gods and the Invisible God? > 4) I felt a bit Nicked by his recent posting on Wenelian gods, though I > like the array he presents. I think Wenelians (which is what I call the > barbarians; Orlanthi seems misleading, since they don't call their storm > god Orlanth) Neither did the old Ralians. Their name for the Storm King survived as a Malkioni False God, Worlath, both in Umathela (where Theyalan(ized) settlers were shipped in the early 2nd Age) and in cautionary Malkioni tales. Vorlan is just another reasonable linguistic variation of this name, as are the Dara Happan versions (Oralanatus, Lanatum) in GRoY. > are much more superstitious and violent than Sartarites, and > generally uncivilised, something like the Roman sterotype of the Germanic > marauders. "Dirty pigs, like the beasts they raise and worship." (From an anonymous traveller's log.) Most of Wenelia could have lived in a Hsunchen bliss, after their initial struggles with the Theyalan missionaries until the sinking of Slontos. For the God Learners they were useful material for observation and proof of their Hykimi theory (i.e. experimentation material), but they were too poor and crude to really be bothered. When Slontos (with its civilised roads and markets) had sunk, the trade route into the Holy Country had to be moved north, through their territory. More later. -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de