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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 08 Jun 1994, part 4
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From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172)
Subject: miscellaneous
Message-ID: <01HD9MVHVYLSQ81XUL@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: 7 Jun 94 11:17:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4423
Hi all--
- Keith (x-rq-id 4358) joins us
In regards to your question on gods with the stasis rune, I think
the most likely candidates are city gods (I tend to view cities
as centers of stabilization so a great majority would have the
stasis rune, though certainly not all) and mountain goddesses.
The latter are not highly worshipped except perhaps by shaman or
hsunchen (or cities built into mountains).
Incidentally, based on your email address, are you by any chance
located in my old home town of River Falls?
- Matt (as well as David) ask about Vinga the Adventuress
There was an excellent story by Alison Place presented at RQ Con
which was one of the finalists in the contest. I don't know if
David Cheng has a copy of it for the Con booklet, but hope he
does. As best I can remember, the story has Ragnaglar kidnap
Barntar while Orlanth is off on the LBQ. Neither Elmal nor
anyone else is available to rescue him, so they are ready to
write Barntar off. Vinga, however, is upset with this and asks
Elmal to let her go off and rescue him. She is given permission
and gathers up a lot of snakes who form a cloak for her. She
reaches Ragnaglar's camp, convinces him to let her in, and then
dances for him. However, this is all a ruse to fling the snakes
at him during the dance and make off with Barntar. This quick
summary does not do any sort of justice to the story as a whole,
but hopefully offers some suggestions to whoever is interested in
developing the cult.
I like the Wind Run spell.
--Harald
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Lands of the clans of the Colymar.
Message-ID: <9406072149.AA08673@carcass.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 7 Jun 94 21:49:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4424
I've been trying to locate the territories of the various clans of the
Colmar tribe (and come to that, the de facto boundaries of the tribal
lands). Mostly I've attempted to reconsile King of Sartar (KoS) to the
"region around the Greydog Inn" map from Tales #5 (GIm), also referring
to the Sartar Tribes map, from Tales #6, the regional map in Apple Lane,
and the "vicinity" map in "A rough guide to Boldhome".
Firstly, some purely geographical queries:
Talar -- I'm not sure if this is a village, or just a battlesite, but does
anyone know its location? This would help locate several clans.
Arfritha Vale -- the Arfritha could be a tributary of the Swan, perhaps
the one immediately to the north of Apple Lane on the GIm.
Now the actual clans; I'll stick to the current clans, but for extra
credit, one might consider the severed clans (presumably they lie along
the border with the tribe they were "annexed" by), and even the lost
clans.
Narri lands: somewhere between the Stream and the old Lonisi lands.
Perhaps some of the land between Swan and Clearwine, the valley between
the Starfire Ridges and the Thunder Hills? Actually, I half-suspect the
reference in KoS to the Stream may be mistaken, and should refer to the
Creek, or perhaps the Swan River. (Note that the converse thinko seems
occur on the upper Stream, in GIm.)
Enhyl: round Ostor Colymar?
Lonisi/Taraling: region north of the Swan River, and south of Stael's Hills?
Varmandi: KoS seems to imply they retook Tarkalor's keep, and possibly
some of Ormthane Valley. Plus some of the land north of the Swan River,
and probably Redbird and at least some of the Brambleberry Hills.
Hiording lands: the lower Swan River, or some portion thereof round about
Swan,
Orlmarth: Well, this is an easy one. But do they occupy the whole area,
or just the Big and Upper Ridges?
Arnoring: Old Tower, the lower Nymie Valley, and/or the area round the
Little Starfire Ridge?
Ernaldor: area around Tarndisi's Grove? Possible extending into the
Thunder Hills.
Anmangarn: somewhere in the Thunder Hills? Possibly a neighbour to the
Varmandi.
Konthasos: area around Clearwine, presumably, perhaps the valley to the
northeast.
Enjossi: I assume the "Upper Stream" is the area east of the rapid/falls
between Clearwine and Richberry (?) Vale (I believe these are the "Seven
Falls"). Doubtless some way less far upstream than Wilmskirk, though.
It's not very clear if the Colymar reoccuppied the Thunder Hills after
the extermination of various clans, if Malani clans did, or if the lands
went unclaimed. On which subject, does anyone have information about the
clans of the neighbouring, or indeed any other, tribes of Sartar?
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk
Subject: Malkioni and duck bits.
Message-ID: <9406072210.AA08712@carcass.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 7 Jun 94 22:10:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4425
Sandy toons in:
> Ducks are a human/duck hybrid? What, just because they have
> teeth? I believe that male duck genitalia is internal. Why, you ask?
> Donald doesn't wear pants, nor does Daffy. Clearly, they got nothing
> to show.
On a less MouseCorp related note, note that one Quackjohn is similarly
trouser-free. (No teeth, though.) Before Martin Crim starts in again
about now Inauthentic and Unverisimiltudinous Apple Lane is, again, I
draw his attention to the invovation on the title page. ;-)
> I see what you mean. On the other hand, so far their crusade
> is aimed at the Kingdom of War, obvious bad guys. They've expressed
> no territorial ambitions, except maybe over Junora, which is being
> gobbled up by the KoW and Jonatela anyway, both of whom would make
> worse masters than Loskalm.
On the third hand, note that Loskalm had clearly annexed part of Junora
long before anyone had even heard of the Kingdom of War. They'd probably
have made a point of crusading against it earlier, anyway, had it not been
so inoffensively sub-Loskalmi, anyway.
> I believe that land-owning peasants are the norm in Loskalm,
> and reasonably common in Tanisor -- maybe real common, because unlike
> Medieval Europe, where a noble is defined by owning land, in Tanisor,
> a noble is defined by his caste.
I don't believe a word of this, myself. First a quibble: a bachelor knight
and a landed knight were, in mediaeval Europe, of essentially the same class,
although one obviously is of somewhat higher social rank. Since Hrestoli
caste isn't fixed by birth, it must be defined by one's occupation, social
standing, and stuff. In fact, I'd not be in the least surprised if Loskalmi
society were even more hierarchic than Seshnelan, since it has a meritocratic
"justification".
> Therefore, a noble is simply
> "assigned" the rule over a section of land, which may actually be
> owned by the peasants who work it, though they owe taxes and fealty
> to their lord.
Makes 'em sound like a freelance management consultancy company. So, what
actual, concrete, pragmatic "rights" of ownership would these peasants have?
Any say in who rules them? Any guarantee against being kicked off it by
their lord? Ability to sell it? If they have no say in the lands
disposition, then whether it's supposedly subsubinfeudinated to them becomes
a somewhat superfluous and academic question.
> For Bad Guy Malkioni, Jonatela is probably our best bet. And,
> of course, parts of Safelster.
Everyone seems to have it in for Jonatela these days, but I don't see that
much evidence that it's all that stratified or repressive. A quick glance
at the G:G player's book reveals that, apparently, all occupations contain
both "barbarian" divine magic guys, and "civilised" sorcery users. (The
flat-rate 75/25 split is almost certainly an oversimplification, though.)
Many of the knights worship Orlanthi wargods.
I've no particular axe to grind about which Malkioni are really "bad guys",
and which are goodies, or if they're all one of the other, but I question
the hidden assumption here that we should decide this all in advance, and
develop them accordingly, with appropriate Morally Correct or Ethically
Inverted philosophies being bolted on, rather than just developing them from
what we know (with liberal bolts of whole cloth, of course), and then deciding
if they're Nice Guys, if we really must.
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk
Subject: Heroplane surfing.
Message-ID: <9406072325.AA08794@carcass.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 7 Jun 94 23:25:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4426
David Gadbois:
> I have a notion of the RuneQuest Sight attributed the the GLs as viewing
> the Godtime events as the areas formed by the intersection of strands in
> Arachne Solara's web. The ends are held down by the runes (not
> necessary by some particular god), and the portions of strands between
> the events are the heroquest paths.
This is not so different from the picture I posted a while ago, though
I put the creation myths round the edge (and Arachne herself, with her
compromise, in the centre). The creation of the runes would therefore
be some way in, along at least some of the paths.
> Heroquesting consists of moving the strands and so reshaping the events.
Most HQing, I think, just consists of "moving along" the strands, or at
most, changing them from within. This does, however, point up the
distinctiveness of what the GLers did.
> (Explaining away some of the
> combinations we know of pretty much requires making the strands be
> n-planes in some high-dimensional space, [...])
It does? Why's that, exactly? A 2D web is somewhat restrictive, as
for non-planar "mythographs" some of the strands would have to cross where
they shouldn't really, but 3D is pretty (not to say entirely) general,
as long as you don't need a "Euclidian" interpretation on the length of the
lines. Pardon us while we have a quick interlude of graph theory.
> Under this model, we see that the industrious and ecologically minded
> God Learners were busy pulling frayed strands back together and
> tightening up the intersections in order to avoid a complete unravelling
> of the whole ball of yarn. For as the web becomes undone, the gods,
> mythology, magic, all the things that make life in Glorantha worth
> living, become unconnected and disappear completely.
Ah, but "ordinary" worship and (non-extrapolative) heroquesting is what
prevents the strands from straying (especially the Sacred Time ceremonies).
I think what the GLers did was for there own intellectual reasons (and
powermad ones), not because of any mythological emergency: if there had
been one, there would have been temporal manifestations of such.
> Back to Tanian: it is clear that something should be there right where
> Fire and Water meet, assuming there is such an intersection. The
> problem I have is that the is no other mention of Tanian except at the
> Battle of the Burning Sea, and one would expect him to appear in some
> other myths purely on the basis of his position (the Dara Happans and
> Oslira, frex.)
There is another myth relating to Tanian, I think, I just forget what it
is. At any rate he was pretty obscure before the God Learners, just being
a son of Lorian, who certainly is an example of what happens when Water
and Fire meet (i.e., sky turns blue).
> The conclusion I draw from this is that Fire and Water
> did not meet before the GLs did their thing; they somehow managed to
> "reach outside" the web [*] and bring the strands together. I.e., the
> GLs created rather than discovered Tanian. If so, it would qualify for
> the Bad Thing that the GLs were doing, in that the web could some
> stability conventions that such activites could violate.
I think it certainly was a Bad Thing, resulting as it did in Firebergs
and the like. That doesn't necessarily mean it didn't have any mythic
precedent.
Alex.
---------------------
From: wdf@netcom.com (William Faulkner)
Subject: Tekumel newsgroup and other worlds
Message-ID: <199406072331.QAA06132@netcom.com>
Date: 7 Jun 94 09:31:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4427
In X-RQ-ID: 4397, Jonas Schiott asked:
>Does anyone on this list know if the Tekumel mailing list is still active,
>and if so at what address? The one I tried was a year or so old, and it
>just bounced my query.
As far as I know it is dead. Look up the alt.games.frp.tekumel newsgroup.
There is also a movement afoot to archieve the transcripts of this group
somewhere, but that hasn't been settled yet.
On a related question, does anyone out there know of any other published
gaming worlds as rich as Glorantha and Tekumel? The most interesting one
I've found is Dark Sun (for *Gasp* AD&D). Its got a little depth with
portions inspired by both Glorantha and Tekumel, and the published
scenarios I've played in are actually more political than hack and slash.
I wouldn't give up Tekumel or Glorantha for it, but for those of you who
are forced to play AD&D (which I generally avoid, except when I know and
trust the DM) it is actually interesting.
Back to RuneQuest - I've recently bought Strangers in Prax and I thought
it was very nicely done. Not my favorite new supplement, but a good effort
none the less. Does anyone know of the upcoming Glorantha supplements to
be published?
Bill Faulkner
---------------------
From: CryptoMatt@aol.com
Subject: RQ Information Requests
Message-ID: <9406072123.tn942312@aol.com>
Date: 8 Jun 94 01:23:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4428
Simon Jones asks for Sartar tribe information in
X-RQ-ID: 4389.
I second the request. I'm starting a game based in
Sartar, and I'd like to have as much "official"
background information as I can get.
----
Sam Phillips offers his Sartar write ups in
X-RQ-ID: 4392...
Sam, I want them. If nobody wants to clog the Daily with
them, e-mail them to me directly. Perhaps we can have an
informal Sartar information exchange...
-Matt
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk
Subject: Sandy Does the West
Message-ID: <9406080123.AA08897@carcass.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Jun 94 01:23:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4429
Sandy Petersen's attribution wavers thusly:
> Alex Ferguson mentions:
> >Western Saints have haloes.
> Western Saints have haloes?
That'd be the person I was responding to. I'm not sure they do, but it
seems likely for Carmanian and Loskalmi saints, at least.
> Alex says:
> > I'm assuming that Malkioni have a text... maybe they DON'T if its
> > all oral then distortion is very easy!
Again, that was whoever I was replying to...
> The only root texts they have I imagine to be the writings of
> Hrestol. If Malkion wrote anything down (likely), it may have been
> lost over the ages, or distorted by the Brithini, who kept the
> records. Zzabur, of course, wrote down plenty of stuff, but it's
> hardly "sacred writings".
Malkion, or someone in his name, obviously wrote _something_ down; the
Laws/Commandments are hardly likely to have been an oral tradition.
> In any case, Hrestol's writings, being written for the use of
> folks who didn't have any heresies yet, is probably easily
> misinterpreted hundreds of exciting ways. I bet Hrestol's stuff isn't
> NEARLY as clear as the Bible ;)
Probably not, not having been so extensively editted and rewritten. Anyway,
I think there should probably be the texts I suggest, though not that they
_prove_ anything, like "How to get Solace in 10 easy lessons", or "Why
Talor was just a guy on drugs, and shouldn't be worshipped as a Real Saint".
Or even "The Official Chaosium rules for worshipping saints are Correct for
all Sects."
> >> I bet the High Holy Day prayer for Storm Bull includes lengthy
> >> mentions and evocations of Ernalda, Eiritha, Zorak Zoran, etc.
> >Wouldn't that involve having initiates with an actual attention
> >span?
Now, that _was_ me. ;-)
> I suspect the evocations of Ernalda and Eiritha are highly
> popular among the Storm Bulls. And since being drunk tends to
> heighten desire while decreasing ability, I'm sure the "evocation"
> takes a plenty long time.
Or more likely, [censored], [deleted], and then falling asleep. Sorry,
Sandy, didn't want to shock. ;-) As I commented in other messages on
associate worship, it seems likely to depend on the exact myth/ceremony/HQ
being used. Obviously the above are likely to feature prominently in
many (and involve lots of their initiates). I wonder what the ZZ/SB myth
is, anyway?
> >Actually, I think the Hrestol maintain the one-female-caste
> >situation.
> On the other hand, I have convinced myself that the Hrestoli
> follow the full four-caste system for women. Since everyone is
> supposed to move up in caste (or at least, is allowed to), I don't
> think there's any stigma whatsoever in a mixed-caste marriage.
This doesn't follow. Is a farmer husband "worthy" to have a noble wife,
if class corresponds to social worth?
> Most women probably stay "farmers" all their life. But any
> woman who wants to rise through the ranks I'm sure can become a
> female warrior, wizard, and even lord.
If female classes are interpreted just the same as male ones, this could
be true, though it makes the higher-level ones correspondly less likely.
> >I'm not sure if Jonatela has a Hrestoli-type sect, or a heresy
> >of its own
> The Jonatings are a heresy all their own. Among other unique
> features, they have hardly any Farmer Caste members. In fact, the
> "Farmer" castelings are actually Ernalda worshipers, who have nothing
> to do with the Invisible God.
What are all these "Farmer, civilised"s doing in the G:G 3 book, den?
> >I'm not sure what the Official Rokari situation might be, but I'll
> >bet that even if all women are notionally of a single caste, they
> >are de facto members of their parents' caste, and people are
> >scandalised if a wizard's daughter marries a knight.
> I concur, but once the knight has done the scandalous thing
> and outmarried, I bet the wizard's daughter is considered to be a
> knight.
Indeed. If a woman wanted to marry into a higher caste, things would
get even uglier, I bet. (I wonder if the general rule would be "both assume
lower class", or "both assume husband's class". Some Rokari regions may
outlaw intermarriage outright. Or consider it a "sin" against caste law.
> Maybe Mastakos, with fine Mobility spells, is the god of
> choice for young boy sheepherders in the Eastern Wilds?
David didn't want to have Mastakos as a "Runner" in the EW, I vaguely recall.
I'd be surprised if most Orlanthi areas don't have dogs, though their
attitude to them may vary. I think Dragon Pass is more felinophile than
the norm, after all, Yinkin is a son of Kero Fin, and possibly a fairly
"local" phenomenon. (I wonder who the Ralios Orlanthi think their wind
god's mother is?)
> Most city gods have the stasis rune, too.
They do? Why, because cities don't move much, or because Pavis does?
> The GL never claimed to have "invented" Tanian. They made
> very few gods out of whole cloth (and were remarkably proud of their
> attempts to do so).
However, they have been known to have told the odd porky, and if a GL-
construct god were still worshipped, it seems a fair bet that someone
(or something) would have erased all or most of the evidence of this being
the case.
> >there is evidence that before the Dara Happans and Theyalans met up
> >in the first age, DH myths didn't mention Orlanth, by any
> >recognisable name, nor the Theyalans, Yelm. When they met up they
> >"realized" each mentioned (and villainised) the other.
> Yes, but certainly the God Learners had nothing to do with
> this particular big of Monomythizing -- it was obviously the result
> of the First Council's activities way back when. So not all the
> Monomyth are the result of GL "lies and propaganda".
Isn't that what I just said? IU'm not sure I even blame the first council,
it may well have been pretty spontaneous.
> Paul Reilly:
> >Subere is, IMO, one of those deities NOT dependent on mortal
> >worship.
> You bet. She's also one of the Source Gods, like Orlanth,
> Mastakos, and Magasta.
One might argue that Subere, and the like, receive at least "meta-worship":
people worship deities like Kyger Litor, but acknowledge the primacy of
Subere in the Darkness area. I also note that this doesn't hold true for
"Greater" Gods like, say, Mastakos, which is one of the reasons I have my
doubts about the significance of this alleged status.
> Of course, Orlanth is a little more beneficial
> to potential followers, but I regard this as his friendly nature --
> desire to help others, not as a need for worship, which I don't
> believe he has any more than Subere.
So what's with these Lunar claims to be about to supplant Orlanth entirely
by nuking his worshippers?
> IMO an ancient Roman rabble-rouser, once he learned the
> language, would eat American politicos alive for breakfast.
Latin rhetoric doesn't make for good soundbites, or indeed the modern
attention span. (Makes the above Storm Bull's look good.)
Alex.