From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 09 Jun 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: confessions of a game fool Message-ID: <9406081800.AA16006@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 8 Jun 94 06:00:52 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4447 someone asks: >doesn't Dayzatar have Stasis. Yes. Not much of a god, tho. There's also a coastal god from long ago, named Tuatara. Probably apocryphal. And I know there's some sort of Chaos stasis god tied to stone (and origin of cockatrices), as we saw his effects in some early scenarios. In addition, I believe that Gark the Calm has the Stasis Rune. Nils, defending Europe, sez: >Ever been to Sweden? If you travel along a road in northern >Scandinavia, you loose any notions about over-populated Europe. I was partially joking. But in any case, who predicts a war in Sweden? You've managed to keep well out of it this whole century. For that matter, compared to parts of the U.S. (or Australia), Sweden is _densely_ populated. Here you have a land smaller than Montana, but with a heck of a lot more population. I said: >>Don't confuse the quality of the metal used with the cultural >>sophistication of a society. >But I can use it to determine the technical sophistication of the >society - like lack of the printing press, universal literacy and >other things needed to get a standardised language. In what way does bronze technology prevent printing presses or universal literacy? And it seems to me that Cicero (admittedly, an iron-age dude, but sans presses or universal literacy) did a bang-up job of standardizing classical Latin. It's also easy to overestimate the wonderful advantages of technology, forgetting that the Gloranthan use of myth and magic gives them their own advantages. They, too, have demonstrated an ability to destroy their world, so I wouldn't look down on their technology too much. Do not forget that the bronze technology of Glorantha is not a matter of "not discovered iron" yet. Gloranthan smiths are perfectly capable of working iron -- it's just in short supply. Joerg asks many things about the original Jrusteli: >All the transport [to move to Jrustela] had been provided by the >Waertagi. What was their motivation to aid the enemy of their >old-time allies, the Brithini? The Jrusteli were not at that time enemies of the Brithini. Even at the peak of their power they weren't so much foes of the Brithini as they were of the Waertagi. But they weren't enemies of the Waertagi either, when they first immigrated to Jrustela. Also, you must remember that the Waertagi's source of income was entirely based on transporting other peoples' goods and persons across the oceans. I'm sure they were paid for their trouble. >Did they (too) remember Malkion's teachings of Solace Zzabur and his >brothers (at least Talar and Horal) had forbidden to the Brithini? Who can say? Who knows what secrets the Waertagi knew? >(While I'm at it, what made them spread the (brown) Vadeli from >their island remnants of former greatness across the world's ports?) The Waertagi never spread the Vadeli anywhere. The Vadeli are now in Pamaltela as a result of a Third Age phenomenon-- the end of the Closing, when the Vadeli pulled their big scam on the coasts. >Wasn't the northern part of what was to become Jrustela shown on the >Troll Pak maps as Vadeli colonies in the Golden Age? Yes. But they weren't transported there -- they had been there since before the oceans rose. The Vadeli used to cover huge acreage of land. Brithini magic flooded most of their territory, wiping them out. except in a few high places. >What became of these? Either there's still Vadeli remnants left in Jrustela, or else they were all destroyed in the Second Age. Dunno which. In any case, there's certainly Vadeli colonies there now. >(And do you know anything about the Awesome Bridge shown in that >map?) Yes. >How big was this catastrophe (the end of the Artmali Empire)? What >exactly did it consist of? When Chaos came into the universe, its initial point of entry was at the north edge, above the glacier. They tipped up the sky dome to crawl under it, and the sun fell from the sky, plunging right into the huge inland bay that the Artmali Empire was based around, and burning up everything there, leaving behind the Nargan Desert. Even the water caught on fire in that disaster. Even today, south of the Nargan you can find the Boiling Swamps, and further of that, beyond Pamaltela's southern shores, is the Sea of Fire, which is still burning after all these years. Only a few survivors of the Artmali Empire managed to escape, which is why today's blue folk live in such widely-separated areas. >What did Filth-Which-Walks and Qualyorni/Moorgarki do to the empire? When Artmal went to fight the trollish monster, he was beaten and crippled. A heretofore obscure god, Pamalt, pushed off the trolls, preserving most of Pamaltela. Artmal's defeat and crippling was no doubt symbolic of what was soon to come. Qualyorni was a product of the Lesser Darkness. Note that in Agimori legend, the Lesser Darkness and the Great Darkness are not distinguished between. The sun's fall and the entry of chaos are conterminous. No doubt the God Learners had fits with this, because it's pretty obvious that Genertelan legendry distinguishes between the two events (except maybe for Kralorela). The Artmali Empire was pretty much out of it by the time Vovisibor came along. Pamalt and the Agimori, previously minor peoples of Pamaltela, had to muster themselves against this mightiest of all threats. (I.e., Vovisibor is not a Veldang legend.) >Do you have details on this pre-Dawn Lunar Empire, and its fall? Yeah, I know a little more. You must remember that this empire is a contemporary of Genert's Golden Folk, the White Elves, and other such vanished wonders. It was destroyed way back when, at the start of the Darkness, so there's not THAT much detail on the place. They were an oceangoing folk, and the interior of Pamaltela was a huge inland sea at their time. I.e., the Nargan Desert is a dried-up lake, with plenty of fine salt deposits and worse. (I said Orlanth doesn't actually need worship.) >Then how and why does the Red Goddess' progress pull Orlanth from >power? Her threat is much more fearsome than a mere attrition of worshipers. The Red Goddess's ultimate goal, from Orlanth's point of view, is to actually remove Storm as a major Rune (it might be able to remain behind as a minor sub-Rune, like Heat or Shadow). Such tinkering with the universe's building blocks is a Major Change of reality. No wonder Orlanth musters all his forces against her. Alex F. opines: >note that Loskalm had clearly annexed part of Junora long before >anyone had even heard of the Kingdom of War. They'd probably have >made a point of crusading against it earlier, anyway, had it not >been so inoffensively sub-Loskalmi, anyway. A base slander, sans evidence to back it up. They'd only have crusaded against it if it had been a threat to them. Hmm. Seems I'm backing up your argument. Stop reading after the first sentence of this paragraph. >Since Hrestoli caste isn't fixed by birth, it must be defined by >one's occupation, social standing, and stuff. In fact, I'd not be >in the least surprised if Loskalmi society were even more hierarchic >than Seshnelan, since it has a meritocratic "justification". Yeah, that's what I said. But "more hierarchic" doesn't necessarily mean overtly evil. Consider: if any noble has the right to summarily execute (say) any adult peasant, then your own children (if you're a noble) are at risk until they've made it up through the ranks. This would tend, in my opinion, to force Loskalmi law into paternalistic, rather than repressive. Certainly your rights as a peasant are restricted, but I suspect that the ability of nobles, knights, and wizards to randomly oppress the peasants is also restricted. I said: >> Therefore, a noble is simply "assigned" the rule over a section of >> land, which may actually be owned by the peasants who work it, >> though they owe taxes and fealty to their lord. And I still believe that this is true for the Hrestoli, and probably for many Rokari as well. >So, what actual, concrete, pragmatic "rights" of ownership would >these peasants have? Any say in who rules them? Of course not. Who in the entire history of the world has _ever_ had any say in who rules them? >Any guarantee against being kicked off it by their lord? Yes, I would say so. Especially if the peasants are considered to be a part of the land. >Ability to sell it? Of course not, at least not without the prior approval of the Lord, and proof that the new owner will be able to farm it in the style to which the Lord has become accustomed. I'm sure that a Lord can sell his ruling rights to a swatch of land though. In this way, each piece of land actually is "owned" twice -- once by the peasant himself, and once by the Lord. Alex, the entire thrust of your reasoning on this subject seems aimed at demonstrating that the Loskalmi are _able_ to be villainous. Of course they are! Despite my rep as a Hrestoli simp, it's obvious that there are plenty of villainous corrupt Loskalmi. I'm sure plenty of injustices take place among them as well. But this doesn't mean that the structure of their society isn't _generally_ aimed at making them better folks, and is a (comparatively) non-oppressive benign organization. It still strikes me as a better place to live than most Gloranthan societies. >Everyone seems to have it in for Jonatela these days, but I don't >see that much evidence that it's all that stratified or repressive. Cut me some slack, Alex. The only printed information on Jonatela is from the Genertela book, and I quote: "The ruling class has an iron grip upon the populace. No guild councils protest these lords' taxes, and when peasants revolt they are routinely slaughtered. Great castles are build spanning the walls of most cities: signs of terrible oppression." Now, tell me again your own Jonatela theory. >I've no particular axe to grind about which Malkioni are really "bad >guys", and which are goodies, or if they're all one of the other, >but I question the hidden assumption here that we should decide this >all in advance What a very strange thing to say, Alex. What could possibly be wrong with deciding ahead of time which cultures are going to be "generally benign" or not? Or which are to be "places of mystery"? What kind of campaign do you run, in which you don't feel a need to know ahead of time (i.e., before working out every last cultural detail) who the PCs' opponents are likely to be, and just why they're loathsome? Faulkner asks: >On a related question, does anyone out there know of any other >published gaming worlds as rich as Glorantha and Tekumel? There's one other, whose name I alas don't have on hand. But it includes weird alien beings and names with exceedingly good artwork, and a workable magic system. Games Workshop published it. It's got floating islands, kerning bays, *argh* can't recall the name. Anyone who's gone to GenCon has seen these guys. Alex, on haloes, sez: >it seems likely for Carmanian and Loskalmi saints, at least. Carmanian, I agree, because of the solar influence. Why Loskalmi? I said: >>I don't think there's any stigma whatsoever in a mixed-caste >>marriage. Alex points out: >This doesn't follow. Is a farmer husband "worthy" to have a noble >wife, if class corresponds to social worth? Consider: if a farmer weds a farmer, then rises to knightly rank, while her husband stays a farmer, is the wedding dissolved? I say no, because nobody would stand for it. If a farmer can be wed to a knight (or a noble) in this manner, why not just allow the marriage straight-off. Especially since the noble wife might have been engaged to/in love with her farmer husband since the time she was just a farmer herself. >>But any woman who wants to rise through the ranks I'm sure can >> become a female warrior, wizard, and even lord. >If female classes are interpreted just the same as male ones, this >could be true, though it makes the higher-level ones correspondly >less likely. I'm not convinced that female classes are interpreted just the same as men ones. Suggestions are invited for what the alternate female class-justifications would be for. I suspect that the qualifications for being a Lord are the same as for a man, because women are manifestly as good at magic as any man, so they can be expected to master the Wizard class just fine. What about Knight? >>the [Jonating] "Farmer" castelings are actually Ernalda worshipers, >> who have nothing to do with the Invisible God. >What are all these "Farmer, civilised"s doing in the G:G 3 book, >den? Why can't an Ernalda worshiper be civilized? They are in Esrolia, y'know. > If a [Rokari] woman wanted to marry into a higher caste, things >would get even uglier, I bet. (I wonder if the general rule would >be "both assume lower class", or "both assume husband's class". >Some Rokari regions may outlaw intermarriage outright. Or consider >it a "sin" against caste law. Even if intermarriage is outlawed or a sin, it will still happen, and I bet it's not annulled. Just do your penance, or pay your fine or whatever. Let's consider the major Rokari areas of Pasos, Nolos, and Tanisor. I submit that if women are considered to be a "single" class, though notionally subdivided according to the father's class, then I suggest that the rule is "both assume husband's class". After all, technically the wife has no class of her own. But I'm still not convinced that the Rokari women have but a single class. Arguments one way or the other? >> Most city gods have the stasis rune, too. >They do? Why, because cities don't move much, or because Pavis >does? Because stability and security is generally regarded as a virtue for a city. Cities that are ever-changing and dynamic probably don't have much of a city cult, since most of the citizens have better gods to worship. Also the city's probably not too old, and may not get much older, since such evolving cities may well evolve themselves out of existence (or into a stasis-like organization). >One might argue that Subere, and the like [source gods], receive at >least >"meta-worship": I agree. Okay. Here's the scoop on Mastakos's origin. I lay it bare for all to see, exposed and raw. Greg and I were trying to figure out just who the Origins for all the Runes were (a rather God-Learnerish activity, I admit, but there you are). It was obvious who the owners of most Runes were. Humakt = Death, Orlanth = Storm, etc. A few were more difficult. The Earth Rune took some pondering. In the end we went with Ernalda, but it could just as easily have been the Land Goddesses or Gata or something. I briefly argued against Mostal being Stasis, on the basis that since Mostal was dead, someone else must have taken the job. But I went too far -- I then pointed out that all the dwarfs' efforts to date, over centuries of toil, have not been able to reanimate Mostal. "Look how dead he is!" I said. And Greg pointed out that anyone that was _that_ hard to revivify must obviously be the holder of the Stasis rune, and I had to concur. A few Runes were left kind of on their own, without any obvious Origin. We didn't want to let any one god have more than one Rune as Origin (except Arachne Solara), so Change, Illusion, and Disorder couldn't all be Eurmal. We gave Illusion to Eurmal, and "created" Bolongo to be Disorder, then fit him into certain myths. I wrote up some tales of Bolongo, and even a debased cult "structure". Unfortunately, it's my opinion that when we started actually working on Bolongo, he demonstrated that he's probably actually the Illusion Origin, while Eurmal's spells and activities qualify him for Disorder. So there's a bit of a mix-up here. I suppose it's only natural with Trickster-type entities involved. Harmony wasn't clear to us either, but because Chalana Arroy was a cool goddess, much worshiped, we gave the credit to her. Anyway, after these labors, we're sitting there stuck with the Movement/Change Rune. Who is that Rune's origin? I tried suggesting that Orlanth was the Origin, but I couldn't convince myself. So in the end Greg came up with Mastakos. If he seems to be a "minor" "not-real" god, mea culpa. And Grega culpa, too. re: Ancient Latins -- the old Romans had _fine_ sound bites, not just rhetoric. Read some Cicero or Caesar. You'll see what I mean. "Carthago delenda est!" Graeme Lindsell says, in response to my statements that peasants may own their own land: >According to the Salfester section in the Genertela book, all >the land in Seshnela is owned by the nobles. Is this a change in the >party line, or is that section Greg's stuff? See above for my attempt to wriggle off the hook by claiming that "both" peasants and nobles own the land. And yes, Seshnela was mostly Greg's writing, in which I feel his basic motivation was to make it as much like Pendragon as possible, whereas I don't have this motivation at all.