From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 09 Jun 1994, part 4
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Re: pilgrimages and misc
Message-ID: <9406081029.AA09649@carcass.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Jun 94 10:29:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4439
Joerg:
> I'd rather have the magician make two (or even three) rolls: one to
> determine is success in sleight, an independent one to see whether the
> spell goes off. Involved spells could require a concentration roll as
> well if they are to be cast during conversation.
> This would also be usable for the current AiG draft sorcery rules.
I think this is a good idea, too: the current sorcery rules mean that
using "extra" manipulations on a spell doesn't make casting it any harder,
as long as they're at at least the level of the one you're already using.
However, this then leaves open the question of what should happen if
some of the manipulations fail, but the spell (and other manipulations)
succeed. Should the spell take effect without the failed manipulations,
or should it fail entirely?
> Bill Robertson in X-RQ-ID: 4314
> > Is the difference between pilgrimage and Heroquest physical and
> > metaphysical?
> IMO this isn't a fully fledged heroquest, although in the critical moment
> a heroquest-like situation came up. Pilgrimages, like worship services,
> are reenactments of myths. They are first of all symbolic. Only when the
> symbols get mucked up, the reenactment doesn't confirm the myth, but opens
> for new possibilities.
I think this sort of thing is what Chaosium have referred to as "practice
HeroQuests". They are begun with some form of the HQ entering ritual, but
you remain on, and conscious of, the mundane plane. Nevertheless, one
still interacts with the heroplane, and adversaries corresponding to the
ones that would be met on the "full" HQ turn up in the flesh, by some
strange coincidence. One also can get some of the magical benefits (or
detrimental consequences) of the HQ, this way.
I think the difference between a purely mundane journey as a pilgrimage,
the above kind of "practice HQ", and a "full HQ" is one of degree, and
of the pragmatics of how, and where the reenactment is carried out.
> > There's not just a word for uncle. There are words for your fathers
> > older brothers and words for your father's younger brothers. [...]
> The Dara Happans, of course. They are so enmeshed in formalities that
> this is the very stuff they live upon.
Note that Latin has distinct words for paternal and maternal relatives
(such as patruus and avunculus for uncles); it seems likely that Dara
Happan, and possibly other Pelorian languages, make distinctions at least
this fine.
> > I'd imagine that any sort of death sentence would have be quick. Hate to
> > see those thugs using DI to get out of their fate. Although it COULD
> > be a great plot device.
> There is no way to DI out if the execution is performed on Sacred Ground
> of a deity not of the character's creed.
Not true, actually. Doubtless there are area enchantments used by
executioner cults to prevent this, though. But unless the character
is a foreigner, it's not likely to be a problem, since he's probably
been excommunicated prior to execution. One might also question whether
a god would answer a DI in most such circumstances, assuming the character
really is guilty of some hideous problem.
> Subject: Dragon related material for Free INT 9 wanted
> This is a call for authors and/or cooperation. We plan to make issue 9
> of Free INT a draconic special, presenting material about true dragons,
> dream dragons, dragonewts, wyrms, dinosaurs, draconic magic, and
> possibly the EWF.
I may well have some things to throw in here, or could at least dredge up
some of the nonsense I've posted on the subject of 'newts in the past, but
mainly I'd like to encourage people to post whatever they have on the
subject, including Joerg, if he has time to Tradetalkise material from his
German cohorts that we've not previously seen. (Yeah, I know, I should
raise my German to 20% and subscribe...)
> I hear this for the first time. I would have thought that the
> father-son relation would have been a too nice parallel to
> Mithraism (the real contender with Christianity in Constantine's
> era) not to be exploited in conversions.
Never mind parallel, Mithraism was effectively merged with the cult of
Invictus Sol some time before Constantine, and this was, I think, the
official state religion for a while. When Christianity took over that
job, whole swatches of iconography, feast dates, and heaven knows what
else were cheerfully Liberated from the former.
I'd make a corny joke at this point about the Son and the Sun having the
same birthday, but it loses something in translation (to Latin).
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Lo- (or indeed,, sa-)metal.
Message-ID: <9406081030.AA09653@carcass.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Jun 94 10:30:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4440
Harald Smith:
> Lo-metal in one form (as sa-metal) is green, not red, and
> would be appropriate for a metal of Lorion or that worn by
> Gnydron.
Yah, kinda runny, though. Elder Secrets appears to imply that lo-metal
is the solid form of sa-metal, but I suppose that one could hypothesise
a solid, green form obtainable by alchemy, or more likely, that the relevant
Enchant spell also solidifies the material directly.
Alex.
---------------------
From: finelli@cs.unibo.it (Michele Finelli)
Subject: Subscribe again
Message-ID: <199406081039.AA18018@jago.cs.unibo.it>
Date: 8 Jun 94 10:40:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4441
Subscribe Finelli Michele
finelli@cs.unibo.it
---------------------
From: Mike.Dickison@vuw.ac.nz (Mike Dickison)
Subject: More Wenelians (Henk, please forward)
Message-ID: <199406081046.AA22312@rata.vuw.ac.nz>
Date: 9 Jun 94 10:47:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4442
Joerg makes some good points about my take on the Wenelians:
>Royal lineage amongst the barbarians: Do you mean native barbarian royalty,
>or imported Ralian royalty?
Ralian. I make a distinction between Royalty (Trader Prices, Ralian,
quasi-civilised families) and Barbarians (unwashed, Vorlani(Orlanthi)
peasants). The Royalty rule in name, not in practice. Actual power is
possessed by commoner clan or tribal leaders, whom I call Warlords (not
Kings) to avoid confusion. Succession of warlords I think is not as
democratic as in Sartar and KoS, though most probably come from a few
families or totems (ie: post-Hsunchen lineages). Joerg cites the
Heimskringla example, which is good enough for me.
I guess I think the Trader Princes are about as powerful as the British
royal family are today (and we're still Monarchists down here in NZ!) I bet
the barbarians just adore them to bits, dote on their fancy clothes, and
gossip about their liaisons.
>Don't the Trader Princes a) keep up the caravans as a religious duty....
Yes, to some extent, though Esrolia has placed an embargo on trade with the
barbarians (though there's some "gun-running" going on). The caravans still
travel between the four Vorlani nations, and some overland trade comes from
Ralios via Pralorela.
> ...and b) (evil thought) don't they sponsor the Wenelian pirates?
VERY evil thought. I like it :) In my campaign, there's a conspiracy to
break the Handran dyestuff monopoly by helping some guild members defect to
Kaxterplose (the PCs have the hard job, natch). It's basically backed by
Nimistori procurators. We know the Nimistori have a pirate navy, which they
used against the Esrolians in 1616 (RQ Companion p16), and I'm sure
freelance privateers are common. However, I really like the idea of the
trader princes sending aid (food, ships, warriors) incognito to the Wolf
Pirates, to help endanger the sea trade, and perhaps even to sack Handra
(now THAT'S a nice campaign twist...my thanks, Joerg. Good thing my players
aren't on the Net.)
>Script: Being the "Issarian heresy" in my discussions, what script do
>they use? Tradetalk? Western? (I think that written Tradetalk is a crude
>form of Western....... And since Issaries' "son" Garzeen
>roamed Seshnela (where he wed the daughter of King Froalar), I think it
>likely that written Tradetalk could have used this as the base of its
>script.)
I actually don't use Trade Talk, though your suggestion makes perfect
sense. In my campaign, Western is the (written) language of culture and
learning, and Coastal/Cityspeech is the spoken lingua franca. It's a creole
of the Esrolian and the Barbarian tongues (vocab of the former, structure
of the latter). If you're educated enough to write, you probably write
Western and speak a little Ralian.
>What about the coastal cities: Who are their citizens? Survivors of
>Slontos, mixed with some native elements plus immigrants from Ralios? What
>are the religious practises of the city-dwellers? A henotheist combination
>of Wenelian deities, city gods and the Invisible God?
Yeah, I think so. I think probably more Esrolian influence than Ralian,
since they're nearer, they have a merchant fleet, and there's lots and lots
of them. I'm not sure how much they mix IG and other gods; I think there's
a noble, educated, Westophile class (which includes sea captains -
remember, these guys have to be literate and know at least some sorcery),
and a cosmopolitan, sailor class (which worship the city god, Dormal, the
Lightbringers, Earth gods etc.) I think the plain Issaries worshippers get
squeezed out a little, but that's personal taste. But the coastal cities
are a problem. I'd like to make them more interesting than the standard
anonymous "free port" that spawns backgroundless characters. So:
*Peelo has an "Old City", ex-Slontos faction manipulating trade and politics.
*Fay Jee is a sprawling mess, with three incompatible city gods slugging it out.
*Kaxterplose is a fortified cliffside holy place, and thus a sanctuary.
And there really should be a couple of other smaller towns. I want the PCs
to try and start one.
Any suggestions? By the way, Nick, I'd love to hear more about Wenelian
gods. I use Wild Boar as a Storm Bull analogue, and the germ of an
anti-monarchist, Robin Hood type movement, there being a dearth of chaos
nests and Lunars.
And here's some more paste-bombing from my campaign: trying to
differentiate between the barbarians without mapping them one-to-one onto
Earth stereotypes. Remember, this is just my opinion. Comments welcome.
#### The How-To-Tell-The-Barbarians-Apart Table ####
Solanthi Ditali Nimistori Bastisi
Weapon 1 Axe Sword Sword Axe
Weapon 2 Dagger Hand Axe Shortsword Hand axe
Shield Target Target Kite Kite
Missile Self Bow Self Bow Composite Bow* Thrown Axe
Clothing Cloaks Cloaks Trews Hoods
Shirts Jerkins Hoods Kilts
Colours G, Y, W B, Y, W P, G, R R, Y, G
Music Pipes, Horn Pipes, Harp Horn, Harp Horn, Flute
Skill Ride Track Boat Climb
Famed For: Poetry Singing Sagas War Dances
Sagas Tracking Woodcraft Storytelling
Greed Gluttony Drinking Laziness
Whistling Talking Taciturn Shouting
[* I make the Pralorelans expert horn crafters, and that's who the
Nimistori get these from. But I agree, it's a bit non-standard. BTW, my
Damali have non-lethal status battles with pairs of "hornspikes" (read
Sai), in which the aim is to grapple and disarm.]
And a stereotypical male from each [people? nation? folk? I still haven't
worked out what to call them.] This is what one lot would say about the
other three (if they were being polite):
Hurrolt is a wealthy and refined Solanthi warrior, rich on Esrolian
plunder, with a good horse, a white shirt, and a fine bronze sword. Well
spoken and noble, honourable and good with the ladies, and makes his pigs
go outside to void. Like most Solanthi, he's somewhat lacking in common
sense, but makes up for it in his dedication to the gods.
Harral is a quick and witty Ditali hunter, always bringing home the finest
deer for the village feast. Later he'll sing loud heroic songs with the
other men of the village, and argue about their last raid on the Esrolians.
Has a fine plaited beard reaching almost to his waist, which he keeps
meticuously greased to stop anyone grabbing it in battle.
Hirrold, a dark-cloaked riverman, is as proud of his boat as he is of his
two gleaming swords. Quick to anger and suspicious of strangers, he is
loyal and steadfast to a close friend or captain. Hirrold whittles spirit
fetishes in his spare time, and wears his clan cheek tattoos with pride.
Like most Nimistori, he consumes great quantities of their foul grain mash
liquor.
Hirra is a hearty hillman, woodcutter and village elder. In his youth a
feared Bastisi warrior, he is now content to tell stories and play the
flute by the fireside, although he can still scale the cliff to the
watchcrag as fast as any young blood. His faded red headband, still worn
over long greying hair, tells all of his skill in the hatchet toss.
Mike Dickison \ If an infinite number of rednecks, in an infinite number
Science writer \ of pickup trucks, fire an infinite number of shotgun
Wellington, N.Z. rounds at an infinite number of highway signs,
adzebill@matai.vuw.ac.nz \ they will eventually produce all the world's
(Thanx to J. Banker, Ariz.!) \ great literary works in
Braille.
---------------------
From: PMichaels@aol.com
Subject: Gargoyles
Message-ID: <9406080708.tn955936@aol.com>
Date: 8 Jun 94 11:08:39 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4443
Greetings! I'm about to start reading my
back load of Daily's, but I first wanted to
ask this question to all of my fellow
Gloranthophiles. I hope this new format
works. Again, I apologize if it doesn't.
What do you think gargoyles are? From the
Gloranthan Bestiary, we know that there
are actually several mountain- or forest-
dwelling species. All species are crudely
shaped humanoids with hideous faces and
rock hard flesh. All are stupid, and most
are winged. Most types live in Genertela,
with another species native to Slon, and
one species imported to Vralos.
I think there is one wingless species of
gargoyle which are troll-gnawed statues
animated by a summoned dark earth spirit,
rather like the way ghouls animate
corpses. Perhaps the spirit is connected
to Asrelia, and the gargoyle is used as a
guardian for treasure.
I also think that at least two of the
Genertelan gargoyle species are actually
the remnants of Genert's Army. My theory
goes like this: When threatened by the
Devil, Genert raised an army of Earth
Warriors. The intelligent officer
gargoyles were the Copper Command, and
looked to be made of metal instead of rock.
The Greater Horned gargoyles were the
heavy shock troops, with the Lesser Horned
gargoyles making up the rest of the army.
Perhaps there were other types also.
As he was dying, Genert gave (what
survived of) his army the command to
"protect his people." This resulted in the
Copper Command sacrificing themselves in
a holding action against the chaos hoards,
allowing Genert's allies to scatter and
escape. The remains of the Copper
Command are the Copper Sands. The rest
of the gargoyles scattered into the
Rockwood Mountains. In an effort to obey
their last command, they looked for things
which reminded them of Genert's Garden.
Thus, some settled in forests. Others
found buildings which were in some way
reminiscent of Golden Age structures. (Or,
that the stupid gargoyles _thought_ were
reminiscent.) Unfortunately, most
gargoyles considered any inhabitants in a
building or forest to be intruders, and so
sought to slay them. Some found Earth
Temples, and actually aided them against
Chaos. Eventually, some figured out that
"the War" had been lost, and sought out
their own fortunes. Others continue
attempting to obey their last command,
and usually end up attacking innocents.
Occasionally, a gargoyle might actually
end up protecting someone who inhabits a
building, such as happened with the tusk
rider tower in the _Borderlands_.
And, while I'm asking, to what degree do
you all think gargoyles are "alive"? (ie. do
they eat meat/veggies, do they breathe, do
they breed?) Personally, I don't think they
breed. Nor do I think they age. If they eat,
it's rock and minerals. For some reason
though, I think they breathe. I'll have to
give this more thought...
Anyway, please let me know what _you_
think.
Peace, Peter
---------------------
From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172)
Subject: of horses and postings
Message-ID: <01HDALOU44YEQ82FNT@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: 8 Jun 94 03:51:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4444
Well, I see I forgot to fix the margins again. Obviously, I my mind was
clouded by the evil trickster, Orlantio. Must be because I've unmasked
him in his true guise.
- horses
Besides the assorted breeds listed in White Dwarf (which Devin kindly
posted), another center for horse breeding is Sylila/Jillaro. Both
Hwarin and, particularly, her husband Ingkot, have strong connections to
horses and horse breeding. While I haven't explored the nature of these
breeds, I certainly picture a strong Lunar warhorse coming from this
area as well as a fast courier horse for travelling the roads of the
southern provinces (including the Daughter's Roads) and keeping the
Lunar bureaucracy running smoothly in areas unreachable by boat.
- postings
I've received requests for both my current Conquering Daughter writeup
and for my Balazar journal. I think unless the demand is overwhelming
that I will pass these on to those that request them directly instead of
filling up the daily with lots of material. If you do want it, just get
a message to me.
--Harald
---------------------
From: jclannom@mathlab.mtu.edu (Joe Lannom)
Subject: Re: Hero Plane surfing
Message-ID: <9406081620.AA10690@mathlab.mtu.edu>
Date: 8 Jun 94 16:20:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4445
Alex did scribe:
|> David Gadbois:
|>> I have a notion of the RuneQuest Sight attributed the the GLs as viewing
|>> the Godtime events as the areas formed by the intersection of strands in
|>> Arachne Solara's web. The ends are held down by the runes (not
|>> necessary by some particular god), and the portions of strands between
|>> the events are the heroquest paths.
|>
|> This is not so different from the picture I posted a while ago, though
|> I put the creation myths round the edge (and Arachne herself, with her
|> compromise, in the centre). The creation of the runes would therefore
|> be some way in, along at least some of the paths.
|>
|>> Heroquesting consists of moving the strands and so reshaping the events.
|>
|> Most HQing, I think, just consists of "moving along" the strands, or at
|> most, changing them from within. This does, however, point up the
|> distinctiveness of what the GLers did.
|>
Please endure a few wild musing on my part. Particularly if it has been mused
before:
The above brings an interesting image to mind. With Arachne Solara's
involvment in the compromise, perhaps she really does act like a spider. When
her web is disturbed, she progresses towards the source of the movements and
catches the 'bug' that is entangled in the web.
Since she's in the center of the web, the root of it, and most heroquests
would probably occur towards the outer/middle areas (nowehre near the
compromise/center... messing with that would be silly and foolhardy, hence her
position to protect the web), it takes her a while to get there. This gives
most questers a chance to do their thing and get out before any 'really
incredible nasty' things happen to them, leaving them blind, for the most
part, to this facet of the danger of heroquesting.
The God Learners spent a LOT of time on the mythic plane, studying, tweaking,
writing their names on the walls, etc. Giving her enough time to eventually
triangulate in on them and... NAB!
They're now firmly cocooned (removed from the mundane plane) and being drained
by Arachne who will eventually drop their dried and brittle husks out of the
heroplane to remind the mortals on Glorantha of what happens to those who
"fool mother nature".
joe "just thinking out loud" lannom