From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 09 Jun 1994, part 5 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: niwe@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander) Subject: Some philosophy by Red Tiger Message-ID: <9406081702.AA11270@ppvku.ericsson.se> Date: 8 Jun 94 21:02:47 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4446 Nils Weinander writing The story about Red Tiger's journey to the East Isles is going to be long, so it will have to wait. Here is another fragment where he analyzes why the Kralorelan way is superior. '... In my duties as a mandarin I have been forced to leave the Empire and travel to less fortunate lands. I am fortunate enough to spend my last days in a monastery with a large library. I have thus been able to compare other travelers' notes of the Outside {untranslatable word meaning the world outside Kralorela} with my own observations. I have thus understood why Kralorela is the only state {another difficult which implies both the physical land, its inhabitants and the magical energies which support it/them} to live through all difficulties in unscathed splendour. Look at the Outside: in the far west of Genertela and on the islands beyond live the people of Malkion. They have no Dragon Emperor to guide and support the state and they have renounced hte gods. Their myths speak of the Cosmic Dragon, under the name the Invisible God, but they cannot see the power of dragons. They make false divisions in all things: castes of people, birth-life-death-afterlife, even their magic is artificially divided in schools and inflexible spells. This is because they have never known the concept of the void. In place of real understanding through revelation they have reached false conclusions through thought and speculation. Of the western peoples the most fanatic, the people of lost Brithos claim to be the oldest people on Glorantha, the only men not descended from beasts. The rock carvings in sunken Goropheng say against this theory. The people of Brithos were rebels who left the Empire before the time of Shavaya, thus they have never known dragon magic or the revelation of the Void. {I might have my references wrong here, I never remember if it was Shavaya or Daruda who brought dragon magic to Kralorela. Anyway, Red Tiger is obviously a mite annoyed at the Brithini. His reference to the rock carvings in Goropheng are less then reliable as he knows nothing of their actual age.} East of the followers of Malkion live a large number of people who worship the gods and many lesser spirits. They have no Dragon Emperor so they are divided and the states are weak. By putting the gods above the state, not knowing of the Power of Dragons they live in constant strife, and many nations have disappeared in the wars. In the age of empires they made two attempts to emulate the greatness of our empire, but both failed. In the first attempt no one knew the secrets of the Void or the power or dragons, so they vainly tried to create a new god instead of seeking to see through the illusion. The turned into an abomination and the result was only the empty attempt at wisdom called illumination. In the second attempt the dragons were petitioned for help and the leaders knew of dragon power, but they never understood the Void. When they could have found the revelation and instituted a new dragon empire the leaders instead sought personal gain and lost the favour of the dragons. The failure of putting the gods above the state is easily seen: before time the Rebel Storm killed Yang Long, the Sun Dragon because the storm gods were not part of the Whole which stems from the Void. Now, the Rebel Storm is assaulted by the Red Moon for the same reason. In the first war the world almost perished. What will come of the war of Storm and Moon no one knows. In contrast, Kralorela has lived through all disasters brought upon the world by the lack of knowledge on the Outside. In the age of darkness the peoples Outside struggled alone to survive, while we lived securely under the guidance of the Dragon Emperor. When the false dragons invaded our state emperor Yanoor called on the Silent Swordsman before his alotted time to save the souls of the Waiting from being sucked up in the usurpers' unholy magic. {Yanoor committed suicide, according to Red Tiger the spirits of dead Kralorelans waiting in Vithela for the emperor would have been used to fuel god learner magic otherwise}. The Exarchs could then retreat to Ignorance and work to awaken the dragons. So wise is the Kralorelan way that the power not flows through the emperor only, but his Exarchs could through long diligent work wake the dragons of the land, so they repelled the usurpers upwards, where they were destroyed by the dragons of the sky. Now when the war of heroes is approaching the emperor Godunya will protect us. ...' Well, Red Tiger isn't completely unbiased... There might be contradictions and stupidities above, since this is written straight off my head, without previous notes. /Nils W --------------------- From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK Subject: Tanian & WD Message-ID: <9406081730.AA10559@Sun.COM> Date: 8 Jun 94 15:55:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4448 Hi All Someone mentioned another myth about Tanian. Well I seem to remember something about Firebergs which might be connected to him. BUT also I would like to point out that Tanian (or his effect) is still alive and well and living in PAVIS! Well the Old City (Big Rubble) to be exact. In the centre of the Puzzle Canal is a stange grotto where the water burns. This can be a problem if you are in a wooden boat. However, when the water is placed in a container it burns away leaving a thin residue, Water Ash. This is fully burnt-out water and useful for resisting fire. This would be the result for ALL the water in the seas if Tanian got loose and out of control! Lewis P.S. Correction: White Dwarf dies the Death of Fourty Thousand Warhammers. ^^^^^^ Far worse and still continuing... --------------------- From: 100102.3001@CompuServe.COM (Peter J. Whitelaw) Subject: Sam's campaign Message-ID: <940608181034_100102.3001_BHJ52-1@CompuServe.COM> Date: 8 Jun 94 18:10:35 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4449 Sam, You said: >"I have been writing up my Sartar Campaign. Anyone want a copy? A fair bit of >the background has been filched but the characters and adventures are all >original (well, with a few apoligies to Goscini & Uderzo)." I would love a copy please! I even tried to e-mail you direct yesterday to tell you as much but my e-mail got bounced. Good luck with your exams. **** Lots of great stuff in the Daily 8/6. Many thanks to the contributors. All the best, Peter :-% --------------------- From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Subject: Troll "marriage" Message-ID: <9406081819.AA08516@sonata.cc.purdue.edu> Date: 8 Jun 94 08:19:38 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4450 The way I've always handled Uzko "marriage" is a variation on the mating and rearing habits of lions. The core of Uz society are the females. They handle all the lawmaking, the bulk of important religious decisions, daily administration, child-rearing, etc. Males are considered to be pretty much expendible. Uz females keep males around as warriors and entertainment, but they're not actually considered to be important for most functions (except war and breeding). They certainly are hardly important enough to "marry" (this is why the Uz marriage ceremony is little known, even among Uzko). I generally presume that any male Uz out "adventuring" has been told to "go make a hero of yourself" by an important female just to get him out of the way. I generally see Uz males living in all-male bands on the periphery of true Uz society. Now, when these Uz men talk to Untermenschen, like humans, they paint a different picture. According to tales gathered by humans from Uz male bands, the Uz men rule the roost. They are not required to slave all day over "boring" things but can run around, get drunk, and be free-willed warriors all the time. What they don't say is that Uz society, by and large, doesn't have any other roles for Uz men to have. They're pretty much marginalized, for the most part. Argan Argar worshippers and important individual Uz men are different, but they are certainly not the rule for Uzko. --------------------- From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu Subject: Re: Responses Message-ID: <9406081824.AA03910@venus.phyast.pitt.edu.phyast.pitt.edu> Date: 8 Jun 94 18:24:51 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4451 Paul Reilly here. Graeme writes: [Of course, the standardized Lunar forms given in Pavis and the Big Rubble imply they do have the printing press, but I think they're an anachronism. Not that documents and forms weren't needed in the past, just that they weren't that stadardised] We have thought about this alot around here. The forms do seem to imply a sort of printing press, along with several other hints about the Lunar's extensive bureacracy. However, there seems to be no mention of printed _books_. What Gives? Our hypothesis: the Lunars do have printing of a sort. (For a while I thought they were using similarity magic, with one scribe writing and hundreds of pens scribbling along with him, but now I have changed my opinion. Save that one for the Western scriptoria...) Ok, is a sort of printing press feasible? 0. A text is prepared. 1. Someone prepares a nice flat wax or linoleum tablet. (Linoleum is made with linseed oil, old technology.) 2. A skilled scribe carves away everything but the syllables of the text. (New Pelorian is syllabary, I claim. About 600 characters in common use plus a number of special symbols. Like Tibetan or the old Hindi script.) 3. A sorcerer (probably trained in Carmania, Oronin, Doblian or Glamour) prepares a bronze tablet the same shape as the wax, either directly through similarity magic or through a two-step molding process. 4. This is used as the plate in a printing press. Mostali of the Brass Mtns. or Jord Mtns. could supply the screw. Or get a trained mammoth to step on it... Paper is used, I think it is largely supplanting papyrus and vellum. The sorcerers are specialists who work for a government bureaucracy. Their training is probably the most expensive component in the system, followed by the Mostali parts for the press. Without an assured market and a capitalist structure in place it might be a long time before commercial printed books come into vogue - especially if the Lunars, like the Japanese or many other cultures, value the calligraphy in a book as much as they do the contents. Good calligraphy might be seen as a waste on 'forms' and in fact the wide use of inelegant 'forms' might depress the market for printed books, by making people subconsciously associate printing with tedious paperwork and impersonal bureacracies. Aren't we annoyed by form letters? If these had come before printed books they might have diminished their marketability. So, I think Lunar magic-assisted printing is OK. >many of the Lunars circa 1620 believe the empire will rule the whole >world within a few generations Probably popular within the Imperial cult. Lon-Eel believes this (she is a local creation) and she has a strange book about how everything will be wonderful once the Empire rules the world. For example, the Crimson Bat would not be considered particularly Chaotic if it flew around the outer boundaries of the Universe, where reality is floppy. Once the borders of the Empire and the Universe are the same, the Crimson Bat will no longer be Chaotic - it will just fly around the edge of the Universe, protecting us from the REALLY BAD stuff outside, scooping up chaos forms as they sneak in and eating them. This book was fairly widely circulated as it served the purposes of the Society for the Propagation of the Lunar Faith. Sadly her _next_ book was even wackier, describing how Broo and Scorpion Men and the like were really quite nice, if you gave them a chance. (She of course lives in GLamour and has never met one of these creatures). Thanks to Lewis for the description of the punishment of parricides. It has been a long time since I read the book of Cicero's trials; someone whose name began with R (i think) was defended by CIcero against a charge of parricide. He reminds the jury of the punishment, which I vaguely remembered. --------------------- From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au Subject: Xerox - the god of copying Message-ID: <01HDC0XMDT5A93B7NZ@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> Date: 9 Jun 94 19:39:24 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4453 G'day everyone, David Gabois amused me very much with ideas about Lunar printing technology: >The printing technology is actually xerographic, using a bound fire >elemental as the fuser. Arbitrary patterns can be "programmed" into the >elemental with a sufficiently hairy Command spell. Or perhaps they >teach the critter to speak something like PostScript first in order to >simplify page descriptions. >The Lunars use Form/Set Bronze as a sort of linotype machine. Come to >think of it, why isn't Gloranthan art considerably more sophisticated >than it is usually portrayed? The implications of having arbitrary long >duration Form/Set Stone spells in sculpting are pretty profound. I was working on the assumption that the Lunars *didn't* have any printing technology, but were working on it. In Strangers in Prax my character Maculus was originally going to be an amateur technologist/ inventor, but this got scuppered by the time of the final product. Here's Mac's not-entirely-successful attempt to revolutionise printing technology, the first Gloranthan photocopier: "Maculus has invented a primitive box camera, using a special light-sensitive mineral, Glow spells and lots of patience. The images obtained form on a glass plate coated in the black powder, which is imported at great expense from the troll city of Blackwell in the Holy Country). They can only be viewed in a darkened room, as bright light would turn the whole plate white. Maculus has not yet come up with a way of fixing the tones on the plate so they can be shown in the light of day. So far, Maculus has only reproduced images of inanimate shapes and objects. He has not thought of taking portraits of people at all. Instead, he is working with the idea that one day multiple images could be taken of important documents, rather than getting a copyist to laboriously scribble single copies at a time by hand. Maculus feels that his invention could revolutionise the Lunar bureaucracy and improve literacy." (Note this could be the real reason why all the windows in his residence above the Magic Shoppe are blacked out!) Cheers MOB --------------------- From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake) Subject: Re: the Hrestoli Message-ID: <199406090149.JAA23607@melomys.cs.uwa.oz.au> Date: 9 Jun 94 01:51:05 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4454 > From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Hrestoli > Message-ID: <9406080401.AA08993@carcass.dcs.gla.ac.uk> > Date: 8 Jun 94 04:01:11 GMT > X-RQ-ID: 4432 > > While I'm not going to defend a Mr. Hrestol Happy Face position, I think the > above account of Hrestoli idealism may be somewhat, well, idealised. First, > note the Farmer table of occupation in G:G. Squire, hrm? Guess whose son > gets _that_ job. Similarly, I'll wager there are similar "niches" in the > Knightly and Priestly classes for persons clearly in the process of Rising > to Their Natural Position. The extent to which this occurs probably varies > rather widely. > Actually, according to the rules, squires, acolythists, etc. are the big LOSERS of the system, because they are officially farmer caste, and never develop their skills at farming, so can never leave it. I guess either such folkscan be raised to the next caste by special dispensation (perhaps they need to show lots of progress at rising to the caste above that one?), or perhaps these people lose the social mobility in return for starting out at a higher level? Or perhaps they are the big winners. How does a squire become a knight? Anyone want to speculate? This is a pretty important question for Hrestoli society. > If one examines GoG, one finds that the "Wizards" may be lesser nobles, > and doubtless some "Knights" are in fact low-ranking clerics (deacons, > curates, vergers and the like). > Absolutely. I am of the opinion that when you become a knight, you take service (either with a particular noble, or an institution such as a knightly order), and must rise up through the ranks of that institution to attain a full noble ranking position. Also some nobles are in fact bishops or other high church officials. It is possible to change institutions, but it usually means taking a cut in rank. Thus the admirals, generals, etc. are people who have risen up through the ranks. There are several very big questions about Hrestoli society left unanswered. The most important one is what degree of separation of Church and state is there? The answer is quite possibly none. Are the two hierarchies separate, or intertwined? I would like to produce a write up of the Hrestoli soon (anyone interested let me know), and questions like this are making it very difficult. > > but I suspect > > there are more than a few who are 'defenders of the faith' in the style of > > a good fanatic Islamic mullah, or maybe a good Christian soldier like > > the famous Vlad V of Wallachia (ever seen the woodcut of him breakfasting > > among the impaled heretics?). > > This isn't a comment which does any favours to the "fanatic Islamic mullah", > a stereotype which seems to trip rather readily off the modern western > tongue. Of course, it might be debated whether tolerance for unbelievers > is even a supposed virtue of Malkionism, as it is of Islams and Christianity. > My reference to Islamic mullahs was a reference not so much to the modern stereotype, but the tendency, especially in early Islam, to have no distinction between Church and State, and to spread the true word by conquest rather than conversion. Of course, the Christians tried to do the same thing with the Crusades, but with less success. And note that while tolerance of SOME unbelievers is sometimes considered a Christian virtue (it was not always), tolerance for heretics is much less. And to the Hrestoli most Malkioni are heretics. The Rathori or Uncolings are primitives who have nt heard the word of the Prophet, and we pity them, but thehave heard the words of the Prophet, and twist his words and mix them with lies, and they are truly wicked. > > Alex. > Cheers Dave --------------------- From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake) Subject: Strange Mountain beasts Message-ID: <199406090218.KAA23838@melomys.cs.uwa.oz.au> Date: 9 Jun 94 02:19:33 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4455 >>>the ground's so steep a cow'd roll off >>-Arf! Thats why haggises have one pair of legs longer than the >>other.. > Aha. The evolutionary antecedents of the Sidehill Gouger are >now becoming clear. We have a standing joke in my RQ game about Mountain Cooties (presumably related to the Sidehill Gouger), and meeting the broo that is a descendent of them. There have been several broos appear with one leg large then the other, but so far none of them have appeared favouring steep slopes. Note that the evolution of such creatures is complicated by the fact that clockwise and anti-clockwise strains develop, that can only mate under very unusual circumstances, for purely physical reasons. Cheers Dave --------------------- From: lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au (Graeme Lindsell) Subject: Mainly Malkionists, and Pelorian Printing Message-ID: <9406090309.AA25026@Sun.COM> Date: 9 Jun 94 18:07:45 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4456 David Gadbois writes: >I thought the Lunars had movable-type printing presses. That would seem >to necessitate some blocky script. There could be several resolutions >to this quandry: If this is true, then I'll retract any objections to a Newspeak New Pelorian. Where is this mentioned? >o The Lunars use Form/Set Bronze as a sort of linotype machine. Come to >think of it, why isn't Gloranthan art considerably more sophisticated >than it is usually portrayed? The implications of having arbitrary long >duration Form/Set Stone spells in sculpting are pretty profound. I think the reason for this is that all the consequences of Form/Set weren't considered. That spell will have consequences for all handiworks. Alex writes >I think the above account of Hrestoli idealism may be somewhat, well, >idealised. Very possibly. Hard to believe it isn't, really. But if we accept what's written. > Of course, it might be debated whether tolerance for unbelievers >is even a supposed virtue of Malkionism, as it is of Islams and >Christianity. Has tolerance always been an official part of Christian teachings? I know that the Islamic nations of Spain were much more tolerant of the Jews than the Christians who drove them out. I would suspect it might be for the Hrestoli but not the Rokari: if you're born into your caste and stay there forever then those born as initiates of the false gods are doomed to stay that way. The Hrestoli may accept the possibility (nay, necessity!) of conversion. >> Of course, as long as they are fighting >> the Kingdom of War no one needs to worry... >Apart from the poor bastards in the middle, of course. Until Loskalm smashes the Kingdom of War and then keep going. Nothing like outnumbering an enemy 10-to-1, being better organised and more advanced technically and magically to give you an edge in a war... >I've no particular axe to grind about which Malkioni are really "bad guys", >and which are goodies, My complaint started because it was suggested that the last group which I could have made a bit more tolerant of foreign beliefs - the Salfestrans - should be evil oppressive types. My feeling is we've already got enough evil, oppressive Malkionists. Everyone except the Loskalmi, who have other problems. Certainly the Genertela pack attempts to portray only the Loskalmi in a "positive" light. >> I bet Hrestol's stuff isn't >> NEARLY as clear as the Bible ;) >Probably not, not having been so extensively editted and rewritten. But possibly Hrestol actually wrote that stuff himself, rather than it being reported by others? Of course, that doesn't stop later Saints interpreting what he wrote... >So what's with these Lunar claims to be about to supplant Orlanth entirely >by nuking his worshippers? They're probably what's called "lies" IMO. There are a heck of a lot of Orlanthi in Ralios, and some more in Fronela, Maniria and Pameltela who are far from under the Lunar thumb. They may be able to locally supplant his worship, though. -- Graeme Lindsell a.k.a lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au Research School of Chemistry, Australian National University, Canberra. "I was 17 miles from Greybridge before I was caught by the school leopard" Ripping Yarns - Tomkinson's Schooldays.