Bell Digest v940610p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 10 Jun 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


---------------------

From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: stuff
Message-ID: <9406091959.AA18292@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 9 Jun 94 07:59:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4475

Henk (who rarely posts) states:
>The simplest explanation I've ever heard about the difference 

>between dogs and wolves is that dogs have been bred 'not to grow
>up'.  A full-grown dog behaves like a wolf pup throughout all of
>its life.
	I, too, have heard the neotony theory about dog behavior, and  
it's convincing. On the other hand, there are dogs which _do_ grow up  
(and get mean). Konrad Lorenz, the noted behaviorist, believed that  
dogs stem from _two_ root stocks -- the golden jackal and the wolf.  
He felt that all dogs are a mixture of the two personality types, but  
some tend towards one more than the other. His examples of "wolf"  
dogs are things like chows, malamutes, etc. which are all notoriously  
"one-man-dogs", bad around children, etc. "Jackal" dogs, much easier  
to handle, but correspondingly less loyal to their owner (i.e., they  
can switch owners during life) are things like collies, alsations,  
chihuahuas, etc. I've read that some modern students no longer accept  
the jackal/wolf theory, but I found it compelling. Even if there is  
no jackal (or no wolf) blood in modern dogs, the two personality  
mixtures seem to hold true. 

	Another thing to remember is that it is perfectly possible to  
breed personality traits into animals. The Hispanics have been doing  
it for decades with their fighting bulls. Harry Teasley, a friend of  
mine who raised bulldogs and told me more than you'd ever want to  
find out about the damn things, mentioned that before 1700, bulldogs  
were exceedingly vicious, tough, and tenacious. With the demise of  
bullbaiting, bulldogs almost went extinct, but a guy (whose name I  
don't recall) singlehandedly decided to try to save the breed. His  
technique was to try to keep all the bulldog traits _except_  
viciousness. He succeeded, and today bulldogs are nice mild-mannered  
things, suitable for children. They're still tough and tenacious, and  
the worst possible news in a dog fight, but they're not mean.

Paul Honigmann remarks
>Roman Empire was affected by the success of the Chinese, generations  
>before and thousands of miles away. Neither empire knew where the  
>Huns went / came from. It struck me that if you were running a  
>Kralorelan, Pentan or Redlands based campaign you could use this as  
>background politics driving the nomads to invade the Redlands
	A similar thing happened in North America during the colonial  
expanse westward. When the whites moved into western Pennsylvania,  
Ohio, west Virginia, etc., the Amerinds were forced west, and there  
was an extremely vicious series of hot little race wars between the  
newcomers and the old-time natives. The natives who were sitting  
quietly in Kentucky, only to be attacked wholesale by screaming  
hordes, were no doubt puzzled and confused by the whole thing. For  
that matter, the "screaming hordes" had had contact with white men  
and so had gunpowder, steel tomahawks, etc., And of course, in the  
middle of these wards, wandering around the fringers, trading,  
marrying your women, and looking friendly, you had white  
frontiersmen, harbingers of a dread future. 

	I like the idea of internal Pentan politics wreaking havoc  
somewhere miles away. In line with this, I have something I'd like to  
point out. 


THE LUNAR EMPIRE CUTS ITS THROAT
	Few more bitter enemies exist in Glorantha than the Prax  
animal riders and the Pent horse barbarians. The traditional border  
between the two is the Snow Line, which is a vague concept. Both  
sides raid back and forth, trying to take over lands in the others'  
domain. Of course, the border clans are mostly the weaker clans, as  
otherwise they wouldn't be in such an undesirable area. The fighting  
goes on and on. 

	Now, the Snow Line has been moving north for generations, to  
the detriment of the Pentans, and the benefit of the Praxians.  
Eventually, this may force the Pent nomads to seek green fields  
elsewhere. Where will they go? Not south -- that's where the pressure  
comes from. Not north. Not east -- the Kingdom of Ignorance? Don't  
make me laugh. They've got to go west, to the Redlands. Uh-oh. 

	Now, one may ask. Why is the Snow Line moving north. Very  
simply, because of the success of the Lunar cult of Kalikos  
Icebreaker. This cult has been weakening Valind for centuries,  
keeping him from battling over Peloria with his brother Orlanth.  
This, of course, weakens both Valind _and_ Orlanth (and other storm  
gods who'd have participated, too). One result is that there is less  
precipitation in the Rockwoods, and less cold winters. Another is  
that the Snow Line moves inexorably north. And another is that the  
horse barbarians are going to have to move west, away from Praxian  
pressure. Funny how things work out in the end. 


Someone else says:
>> There is no way to DI out if the execution is performed on Sacred  
>>Ground of a deity not of the character's creed.
Alex responds:
>Not true, actually.
	Ever since RQ I, Divine Intervention has been forbidden when  
in ground holy to another god than your own. Chaosium's house  
campaign practiced this rule, and so did everyone I know. Why do you  
say, "Not true", Alex?

PMichaels opines:
>I also think that at least two of the Genertelan gargoyle species  
>are actually the remnants of Genert's Army. 

	Can't think of any reason why this would not be the case,  
though maybe not in the exact way you've laid out here. For one  
thing, IMO the Copper Sands are the remnants of the ordinary common  
folk, the humans, not some elite warrior force. 


Loren Miller sez:
>Summing up, it seems to me that Loskalm is the land of Plato's
>Republic, where everything works perfectly, not a fantasy version of
>Mussolini's Italy.
	My hero. I've noticed a definite tendency towards  
"revisionism" in the Digest ever since I first started writing here.  
In the early days of RQ, this revisionist tendency was portrayed by  
people who preferred running Lunar characters, even though the early  
CoP and other documents tended to portray the Lunars as "bad" guys.  
Nowadays it seems to take the form of demonizing various Gloranthan  
organizations which had heretofore not been portrayed as villainous. 

	Soon we'll see defenses of the heroic Brithini point of view. 


Dave Gadbois:
>all the folks I know who are into Glorantha in a big way (even  
>Sandy, who seems to "live" the world in a much more visceral sense  
>than anyone else (even Greg) that I know) appear to use it as a
>sort of whetstone for honing earthly views.
	Hmm. I guess I'll have to plead guilty on all charges. 


>I never remember if it was Shavaya or Daruda who brought dragon  
>magic to Kralorela. 

	Daruda. 


Jardine mentions a blast from the past:
>In the centre of the Puzzle Canal is a stange grotto where the water  
>burns.  This can be a problem if you are in a wooden boat.  However,  
>when the water is placed in a container it burns away leaving a thin  
>residue, Water Ash.  This is fully burnt-out water and useful for  
>resisting fire.  This would be the result for ALL the water in the  
>seas if Tanian got loose and out of control!
	(Pause a moment as Sandy stops and preens). This was one of  
the very first RQ scenarios I ever wrote. 


Paul Reilly assays:
>Lon-Eel ... has a strange book about how everything will be  
>wonderful once the Empire rules the world.  Once the borders of the  
>Empire and the Universe are the same, the Crimson Bat will no longer  
>be Chaotic... Sadly her _next_ book was even wackier, describing how  
>Broo and Scorpion Men and the like were really quite nice, if you  
>gave them a chance.  (She of course lives in GLamour and has never  
>met one of these creatures).
	Do you have titles for either of these books? It's quite  
clear to me that when my players finally make it to the Empire's  
borders, they're going to have copies of these works forced upon them  
by eager missionaries, and they're going to have to read them  
thoroughly (the players are new to Glorantha, but they've already  
learned the Truth About Scorpion Men -- i.e., fight or flight)

David Cake says:
>according to the rules, squires, acolythists, etc. are the big
>LOSERS of the [Hrestoli] system, because they are officially farmer  
>caste, and never develop their skills at farming, so never leave it.
	Despite the official Hrestoli line that everyone has an equal  
chance, it's clear to me that if you're the son of a Knight, you're  
going to make it to Knight status ahead of the son of a Farmer. Ditto  
for Wizards and Lords. I'm sure that a Squire is required to take a  
sabbatical every so often to polish up his Craft skill or whatever so  
that he can become a Knight that much sooner. 

	I also suspect that there are two types of Squires in  
Hrestoli society: sons of Lords, Knights, and Wizards, who are simply  
marking time while they work on qualifying for higher rank, and the  
other, perhaps more common variety, which is simply a rich Farmer who  
has taken upon him some of the responsibilities of the upper ranks  
without actually qualifying for the job. In a meritocracy such as  
Loskalm, in which there is probably very few Lords, some sort of  
sub-Lord is needed to rule the peasants. Knights and Wizards might be  
able to pick up some of the slack, but they have other  
responsibilities besides government. The solution? Squires. 


>There are several very big questions about Hrestoli society left
>unanswered. The most important one is what degree of separation of  
>Church and state is there? The answer is quite possibly none.
	I don't think the Hrestoli are aware that there _can_ be a  
difference between the State and the Church. Their entire social  
structure is built upon their religious beliefs. I think that it is  
possible, even likely, that they have no church "hierarchy", no  
priests, whatsoever. At their ceremonies, the local Knight or Squire  
officiates. If it's a more important ceremony, you get a Wizard to  
bless the crowd. If it's a great big year-end type thing, then a Lord  
shows up. 

	While someone has to take care of the temples to the  
Invisible God and stuff, I'm unconvinced there's a special 

bureaucracy assigned to that purpose. If you were a Wizard, the Lord  
might assign you to be the prelate in charge of the Dubuque Temple  
one year, and then the next year you might wangle an assignment as a  
military Wizard, posted to the Order of the Swallow as magic support.  
Then the next year, you might become the special aide to Lord Boojwa  
up north, who needs extra help with the crops, so you'd better bone  
up on your agricultural spells. Of course, I don't think that such  
rapid job-changing is the norm, and no doubt wizards specialize to  
some extent in their spell choices, but my point is that the Loskalmi  
see no essential difference between the military, the civil, and the  
ecclesiastical systems. 


>while tolerance of SOME unbelievers is sometimes considered a  
>Christian virtue (it was not always), tolerance for heretics is much  
>less. And to the Hrestoli most Malkioni are heretics. The Rathori or  
>Uncolings are primitives who have nt heard the word of the Prophet,  
>and we pity them, but the  have  
>heard the words of the Prophet, and twist his words and mix them  
>with lies, and they are truly wicked.
	I concur with this statement. Let me give you an example from  
the Good Old Days: in the Middle Ages, Jews were often considered to  
be under the protection of civil authorities, and had license to  
disbelieve in Christ, say bad things about Him, etc., and no  
ecclesiastical action could be taken. However, if a CHRISTIAN were to  
say Bad Things about the church, he could be burned alive or worse.  
Of course, Jews were sometimes attacked in [illegal] mob actions or  
by [illegal] government plots, and they were blamed for the Black  
Death, but until the Inquisition (which hunted them down and  
basically exterminated Spanish Jewry), I know of no formally  
organization in place to pick on them, unlike the "heretic"  
Christians. 

	In other words, I agree that the Hrestoli hate the Jonatings  
more than the Orlanthi or Rathori. The Hrestoli doubtless (in  
principle) dislike the Rokari. I'm not sure if their opinion  
vis-a-vis the Rokari is the dire hatred of the Roman Catholic for the  
Lutheran, or the relatively mild distaste of the Greek Orthodox for  
the Roman Catholic. 


>Until Loskalm smashes the Kingdom of War and then keep going.  
>Nothing like outnumbering an enemy 10-to-1, being better organised  
>and more advanced technically and magically to give you an edge in a  
>war..
	Don't write off the KoW too soon. Even if we accept the  
population numbers listed in the Genertela player's book as accurate  
(they're not -- I say this even though 'twas me personally who  
compiled them), the KoW has approximately 85,000 warriors. Loskalm  
probably supports no more than 150,000 or so (if we grant them 5%  
full-time soldier population, which is a hefty number to support for  
a civilized land that doesn't enslave and Tap its peasants or live  
off plunder). I have seen no evidence that the Loskalmi are better  
organized -- if anything, the KoW is much better set up for a war.  
For one thing, the Hrestoli social system is actually quite rigid,  
and makes it hard to, say, suddenly recruit more knights. 

	The average KoW soldier I believe to be more competent and  
fierce than the average Loskalmi Knight, who has only been training  
hard at knightly skills since he was 20-25 or so. 

	Loskalm may be more advanced magically, but why do you say  
technically? 


---------------------

From: klaus@diku.dk
Subject: The Hrestoli principle
Message-ID: <199406090725.AA20706@rimfaxe.diku.dk>
Date: 9 Jun 94 11:25:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4463

The more I think about the Hrestoli caste system, the less sense it
makes. It seems to me to be a 100% guaranteed insurance against
excelence in any walk of life.

Farmers: these will stop being farmes once they have mastered their
craft. Maybe those who are unambitious will not appear at the tests,
but wouldn't that be immoral?

Knights: these will cerainly be inferior to weaponthanes or Rokari
knights, because

a) The are selected based on mastery of irrelevant skills. This not
only excludes most of those with aptitude for fighting, it also
includes lots of incompetents.

b) A Hrestoli knight will have started his serious weapon training
late in life.

c) Any that excels will be promoted out of the knight class. The
unambitious will have been weeded out in step one.

Depending on how heredity works on Glorantha, the Rokari also suffer
from problem a, but not from b or c.

Wizards: these have the same problems, only more so. Especially
problem b will be much worse.

Is there any society on Glorantha that selects sorcerer's aprentices
mainly by magical aptitude? It is my impression that this is how most
shamans choose their aprentices and assistants

Lords: I suppose that you get command experience as you progress
in the knight class, and that wizards are leaders of society.
Still, lords are not chosen for their ability to lead.

I am quite certain that the Rokari refer to what we call "the
Peter principle" as "the Hrestoli principle".

Klaus O K

---------------------

From: rowe@soda.berkeley.edu (Eric Rowe)
Subject: Bison Babies
Message-ID: <199406090840.BAA19575@soda.berkeley.edu>
Date: 8 Jun 94 18:40:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4464


A player is doing some Bison raising in my campaign. I've got prices and
amounts for milk, meat, food etc... But I need information on reproduction.
Anyone out there know the life-cycle of Bison and rate of breeding/longevity?
How many calves per year in a herd of 50 say, and is the a sex ratio bias
in the offspring. That sort of thing. Any help greatly appreciated by a
humble Orlanthi turned herder with no knowledge of strange beasts.

eric

---------------------

From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: Cats and Dogs, Living Together
Message-ID: <9406090923.AA02569@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 9 Jun 94 10:23:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4465

David "Has a cat *and* a dog" Gadbois:
>The last I heard of the current thinking is that cats make a mother
>identification with their owner.  Make for all sorts of interesting
>insights into Yinkin psychology.

This identification is quite true.  One of the most
severe acts of trust and affection is for a cat to
lift its tail into your face, expecting you to lick its ...

The frequent 'kneading' is similar, the cat considers its
human as a 'dry nurse'...

Obligatory RQ/Gloranthan Extrapolation: Sorry, 
can't think of anything now.

-- 
Henk	|	Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
oK[]	|	My first law of computing: "NEVER make assumptions"

---------------------

From: swj@liverpool.ac.uk (Mr S.W. Jones)
Subject: Dull Queries
Message-ID: <199406090926.KAA08586@uxg.liv.ac.uk>
Date: 9 Jun 94 11:26:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4466

	-Something thats been bothering me for a while now, and I'm 
hoping someone can help-
	Firstly- the Closing of the Seas, mentioned just a couple of 
times in the Gloranthan myths; but it does say that no-one could sail out
of sight of land, is there some other reason to stop people sailing?
It just seems that coastal peoples would be able to trade just as 
effectively by sailing close to shore (relatively)- cutting off trade 
only with the southern continent, but still allowing Westerners to ply 
the shores of Kethaela.
	The other dull question is about the Lunars, and it is a little 
pedantic, but why the hell to Lunar infantry use scimitars, OK the nomads
sacked the empire (dear old Sheng Seleris), however as I imagine the Lunars
to be similar to Imperial Rome, and that they use well trained mass 
infantry- then scimitars are just not suited- shortswords are though- 
at least Tacitus and a few other historians thought so. BUT it is Greg's
world so whatever he says goes, right? In my campaign the horsemen
wield scimitars, the infantry shortswords.
 -Simon the Pedant. 

---------------------

From: swj@liverpool.ac.uk (Mr S.W. Jones)
Subject: GroY
Message-ID: <199406091131.MAA26054@uxf.liv.ac.uk>
Date: 9 Jun 94 13:31:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4467

	-How can I get hold of Glorious ReAscent of Yelm in the UK;
I've heard rumours of it being available in the US; however the rumour was
appended with a limited number of copies message. Will it ever grace the 
streets of the UK; and how come everybody on the digest seems to have a copy?
Go on please tell me.
	-Simon Jones.


---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: Wenelia
Message-ID: 
Date: 9 Jun 94 13:23:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4468

Mike Dickison in X-RQ-ID: 4442

Me:
>>Royal lineage amongst the barbarians: Do you mean native barbarian royalty,
>>or imported Ralian royalty?

> Ralian. I make a distinction between Royalty (Trader Prices, Ralian,
> quasi-civilised families) and Barbarians (unwashed, Vorlani(Orlanthi)
> peasants). The Royalty rule in name, not in practice.

The what keeps them fed and provided? With trade as a source of income 
largely diminished, they'd need to rely on their serfs' produce to survive.

> I guess I think the Trader Princes are about as powerful as the British
> royal family are today (and we're still Monarchists down here in NZ!) I bet
> the barbarians just adore them to bits, dote on their fancy clothes, and
> gossip about their liaisons.

So they feed them out of free will? The fancy clothes need to be paid...

>> Don't the Trader Princes keep up the caravans as a religious duty....

> Yes, to some extent, though Esrolia has placed an embargo on trade with the
> barbarians (though there's some "gun-running" going on).

There still is Porthomeka, not-quite Esrolia, under Caladrian (male!) 
nobility, to trade with, as well as Gemborg.

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Eurmal the murderer
Message-ID: 
Date: 9 Jun 94 13:24:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4469

Alex in X-RQ-ID: 4435

> Paul Reilly, quoting me, quoting John Hughes quoting Chaosium:
>>   Eurmal is definitely a Murderer.  No question.  Who unleashed Death?

> If Eurmal was a Murderer, there should be a myth of him killing someone/thing.
> I don't doubt there is, I just want to know what it is.  Frankly, if he
> had hold of it all that non-time, he'd have been having a very off non-day
> if he hadn't _used_ it himself.

Eurmal eating all the baby Raccoons fairly fits this bill, doesn't it?

Does anybody know why raccoons featured so greatly in pre-God Learner 
mythology? They are one of the prime examples of bad God Learning.

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: jonas.schiott@vinga.hum.gu.se (Jonas Schiott)
Subject: A correction.
Message-ID: <9406091326.AA00743@vinga.hum.gu.se>
Date: 9 Jun 94 17:26:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4470

I said:

>Yeah, the population figure given for hsunchen (Genertela Book) doesn't
>have any specific location given, so we're assuming that a lot of them
>(Galanini, mostly) spend much of their time in Vustria.

I don't know where my mind was when I wrote this, but it's completely and
utterly WRONG. My only excuse is that my failing memory is an occupational
hazard...

In fact, I meant to say the exact _opposite_ of the above. I.e. that we
want hsunchen to be found all over the EW, so we are assuming that their
all being listed as living in Vustria is just a simplification.

BTW, some unpublished Chaosium stuff that was quoted at me a while back
states that the majority of these 25000 are Damali. But in order for the
Galanini to fulfil the role we have given them, I feel they should amount
to at least 10-15000.

Also BTW: has anyone considered the 75000 (!) Telmori? We assume this is
also a simplification, and that in order to find prey, they roam over a
much larger part of Ralios, but still...


(      Jonas Schiott                                   )
(      Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria      )
(      Goteborgs Universitet                           )


---------------------

From: DevinC@aol.com
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 08 Jun 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <9406091009.tn1004385@aol.com>
Date: 9 Jun 94 14:09:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4471

Devin Cutler here:

S.W. Jones writes:

"On a final note I have a unofficial write-up of the Donander
cult (it needed one) if anyones interested - or I can pop it on the Digest."

Yes, please post it or send it to me.

Regards,

Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com