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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 10 Jun 1994, part 2
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Moonbroth comments
Message-ID:
Date: 9 Jun 94 14:10:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4472
Malcolm in X-RQ-ID: 4452
Great stuff on Moonbroth.
Minor suggestions, as usual:
The geysers of Moonbroth:
In Glorantha the upwelling of water is a phenomenon regulated by the
Blue Moon. This stellar body has a 1d6 period of climbing and falling,
which makes for an avareage of 2 tides per Red Moon week.
In Tales 10 the expansion of the Waertagi cameo from Elder Secrets by
Ian Gorlick suggested an Annilla connection, which I find highly
reasonable.
So for the Geyser activities, I'd link these to the hour or two when
Annilla falls down from Pole Star's gate (also used by e.g. Orlanth's
Ring) and comes closest to the Inner World.
I know this contradicts Cults of Prax, but it makes more sense to me.
I don't think the Lunar Empire has any water connections other than
through Annilla or inherited from the Dara Happans.
> DESCRIPTION
> The oasis of Moonbroth lies near the edge of the region of Prax known
> as The Good Place. The oasis is a relatively large fertile area, which
> covers approximately 2 square kilometers.
The Nomad Gods boardgame map has an area of twelve hexes around
Moonbroth oasis as fertile ground (i.e. non-chapparal) all year
round. This might be only fairly lush compared to Sartar, but still
is different from the rest of Prax, apart from Sacred Ground.
BTW: In NG, at Moonbroth one could specifically summon Gagarth (the Wild
Hunter) by sacrificing a herd counter. I don't know what magical or
mythological connection there is, but it's another obscure fact about
this oasis.
> RELIGION
> Most of the Oasis Folk of Moonbroth worship the spirit cult of the
> underground water source that gives life to the oasis. They call the
> spirit of the hidden water source SECRET MOTHER. She gives her
> worshippers the spirit spell CALL MOTHER, which will send drinking water
> for one person up to the surface within 50k of Moonbroth.
Would this be an obscure Annilla subcult?
50 km would extend well into the dead place, which I'd except from
this rule.
BTW, what about trolls and Moonbroth?
> ADVENTURE HOOK
> On the week of the high holy day of the Seven Mothers a great market
> and festival is being held at the oasis. People are coming from all
> over to join in the festivities and honor the Seven Mothers. The PCs
> could be recruited by some Orlanthi big wigs (i.e. Garrath, or Krogar)
> and asked to try and sabotage the Holy day by somehow plugging up one
> or more of the geysers. (At least that's what my PCs are going to be
> doing in Moonbroth!)
They also might summon Gagarth and the Wild Hunt. Now _that_ would upset
any Lunar ceremony...
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Snippets without quotes
Message-ID:
Date: 9 Jun 94 14:10:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4473
Alex provided a document which well is worth the 20 Lunars the narrator
paid. Lovely twist about "sunk Loskalm"! Where did the Lunars obtain
their copy of Zzabur's Blue Book?
Peter Michaels about Gargoyles: Nice connection, some very interesting
ideas.
Gonn Orta - Genert:
I think this is overemphasizing Gonn Orta. Why should (a fragment of)
Genert have uprooted the Nidan Dwarf kingdom (as described in "Making
Jolanti")?
Although I think it likely that Gonn Orta did heroquest along the paths
of Genert. He is one of the most magically potent individuals around
the Hidden Greens, which might be a place for the Desert Trackers to
visit and deposit their hyena hides.
Still, I prefer the Annilla connection for the true (cradle) giants of
the Rockwoods.
Nils Weinander brings back the Red Tiger, and puts forth a number of
parallels between draconic thinking and illumination (from a Kralori
point of view) I second. Although illumination from the Lunar
perspective does encompass Primal Chaos (they as verbose as Paul
Honigmann suggested, but hardly a pure chaotic).
Nils, why did you let the uppity storm boy kill Yang Long, and not
Yelm, a well known figure in Kralori myth? And what did happen to
Kralorela after Yelm had been slain?
Metsyla was a deity of light as well, not unlike Antirius a portion
of Yelm keeping watch over part of his realm, and like Antirius formed
prior to Yelm's death. RQ Companion states (top of p.9) that "soon
dragons guarded the Light of the East" during Daruda's reign, during
the Storm Ages. But this source also states that Daruda faded to death
when he witnessed Yelm's death.
Sam's campaign: I'd say, post it. If you don't, send me a copy, please.
Paul about Lunar printing:
I'd think that the Lunar officials are big at cutting stamps out of
linoleum, so why not have larger stamps for producing the forms?
viewed from the side, they'd be similar to a Stasis Rune for full
forms.
There might also be calligraphically satisfying stamps for certain
recursing phrases, although the usual "All praise the Red Moon" might
be an exercise in calligraphy considered a prayer for all Lunar scribes
which must be executed in hand-writing.
(On the other hand, Tibetans use prayer mills, so the Lunars might have
introduced the "All praise..." stamp in lieu of a rosary.)
Dave Cake on Loskalmi Hrestoli:
I think the Squire and Acolythist careers have certain "Farmer" skills
which count towards having mastered farming, such as Horse Care,
Crafts, etc. I wonder how the urban Farmer class is defined?
More Loskalm: Alex is quoted that Loskalm annexed Junora after the
Ban was lifted. The Loskalmi put it like this:
The Loskalmi province Junora was separated from the mainland during
the Ban, and was reunited with the motherland. (But the same was said
about the Sudeten-areas in 1938.)
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Artmali etc.
Message-ID:
Date: 9 Jun 94 14:12:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4474
Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 4447
> Joerg asks many things about the original Jrusteli:
>> All the transport [to move to Jrustela] had been provided by the
>> Waertagi. What was their motivation to aid the enemy of their
>> old-time allies, the Brithini?
> The Jrusteli were not at that time enemies of the Brithini.
> Even at the peak of their power they weren't so much foes of the
> Brithini as they were of the Waertagi. But they weren't enemies of
> the Waertagi either, when they first immigrated to Jrustela.
Glorantha Book tells us: "The Seshnegi Empire once reached all the way
to Safelster, included the Fronelan coastline, and planted colonies in
Jrustela. That phase of the empire ended when it tried to attack
Brithos, and was crushed."
I recall that a Second Age Seshnegi King cum Emperor of the Middle Seas
repeated this assault, and was as severely beaten.
Several questions come to my mind.
First, CoT tells us that the Seshnegi knights and the (probably
Arolanit) wizards were att odds with each other until Arkat came and
somewhat reconciled both factions.
The Waertagi were allied with both parties of old, in fact they provided
the physical link between the continental colonies and the motherland.
Did they allow the sea-descended humans of the West (descendants of
Malkion are descendants of Warera Triolina after all, and the Ygglinga
also claim a naiad as ancestress) a certain amount of seagoing vessels?
Did the Waertagi transport the Seshnegi invasion force to Brithos? If
so, was their fleet doing so sunk?
If they didn't, how did the Seshnegi attack Brithos? Did they use
vessels of their own design? What forces did the Brithini employ to sink
these?
Did the Waertagi allow this military expedition? Why?
> Also, you must remember that the Waertagi's source of income
> was entirely based on transporting other peoples' goods and persons
> across the oceans. I'm sure they were paid for their trouble.
I didn't doubt this for a minute. Yet I had the impression that until
the closing they were staunch allies of Brithos. Seshnela twice had
tried to conquer Brithos. Why should they further the concurrence of
their major ally?
>> Did they (too) remember Malkion's teachings of Solace Zzabur and his
>> brothers (at least Talar and Horal) had forbidden to the Brithini?
> Who can say? Who knows what secrets the Waertagi knew?
Someone ought to. I can imagine it would be fun to play 3rd Age
Waertagi, with all the world's coasts open to them.
>> (While I'm at it, what made them spread the (brown) Vadeli from
>> their island remnants of former greatness across the world's ports?)
> The Waertagi never spread the Vadeli anywhere. The Vadeli are
> now in Pamaltela as a result of a Third Age phenomenon-- the end of
> the Closing, when the Vadeli pulled their big scam on the coasts.
But they are also in any major Genertelan port between Northpoint and
Dombain, possibly even in Lur Nop. Did they spread there during the age
of the Empire of Land and Sea?
>> (And do you know anything about the Awesome Bridge shown in that
>> map?)
> Yes.
Thanks for _this_ enlightenment. To continue the game:
Are you willing to share this knowledge with us?
>> How big was this catastrophe (the end of the Artmali Empire)? What
>> exactly did it consist of?
> When Chaos came into the universe, its initial point of entry
> was at the north edge, above the glacier. They tipped up the sky dome
> to crawl under it, and the sun fell from the sky, plunging right into
> the huge inland bay that the Artmali Empire was based around, and
> burning up everything there, leaving behind the Nargan Desert.
Which sun fell? Yelm was dead and gone to Hell, Antirius shone above
Dara Happa, the Sun Dragon over Kralorela (?), Elmal over Kerofinela,
Somash over Teshnos, Kargzant over the Pentan reaches, Yelmalio within
the elf forests, Yamsur within Genert's Garden.
> Even the water caught on fire in that disaster.
Tanian's birth? The Artmali are grandchildren of Lorion...
> Even today, south of the
> Nargan you can find the Boiling Swamps, and further of that, beyond
> Pamaltela's southern shores, is the Sea of Fire, which is still
> burning after all these years. Only a few survivors of the Artmali
> Empire managed to escape, which is why today's blue folk live in such
> widely-separated areas.
What about Rahmuktara south of the Sea of Worms? A survivor?
> Note that in Agimori legend, the Lesser Darkness and the
> Great Darkness are not distinguished between. The sun's fall and the
> entry of chaos are conterminous. No doubt the God Learners had fits
> with this, because it's pretty obvious that Genertelan legendry
> distinguishes between the two events (except maybe for Kralorela).
As I understood it, the Lesser Darkness had only one thing as effect on
Pamaltela: the coming of the trolls. There still must have been a sun
(waiting to fall into the Nargan Bay).
Introduction to Glorantha book has an obscure mention of the Artmali
Empire in the Second Age (p.10):
"In Pamaltela the early Artmali Empire was crushed, and its territories
incorporated into the sea-borne Jrusteli Empire."
> The Artmali Empire was pretty much out of it by the time
> Vovisibor came along. Pamalt and the Agimori, previously minor
> peoples of Pamaltela, had to muster themselves against this mightiest
> of all threats. (I.e., Vovisibor is not a Veldang legend.)
The Bolongo legend I mentioned (Bolongo replacing the Emperor) clearly
is a Storm Age legend, although not necessarily Lesser Darkness.
Moorgarki certainly is a Lesser Darkness legend, because only the
slaying of Yelm made the trolls leave Wonderhome.
> (I said Orlanth doesn't actually need worship.)
>> Then how and why does the Red Goddess' progress pull Orlanth from
>> power?
> Her threat is much more fearsome than a mere attrition of
> worshipers. The Red Goddess's ultimate goal, from Orlanth's point of
> view, is to actually remove Storm as a major Rune (it might be able
> to remain behind as a minor sub-Rune, like Heat or Shadow). Such
> tinkering with the universe's building blocks is a Major Change of
> reality. No wonder Orlanth musters all his forces against her.
Then why does the empire ignore Ralios? Does the Emperor know about and
rely on the reappearances of Arkat to overthrow Orlanth (Worlath,
whatever) there? Being illuminated, the reappearanes of Arkat should
have some impact on the Empire as well, either an opportunity to spread
the Lunar way in Arkati dress, or a possible threat of another crusade
from Ralios through Dragon Pass into Peloria.
(Arkat's Saga does mention help from Ralios, in the person of
Kocholang's son.)
> A few Runes were left kind of on their own, without any
> obvious Origin. We didn't want to let any one god have more than one
> Rune as Origin (except Arachne Solara), so Change, Illusion, and
> Disorder couldn't all be Eurmal. We gave Illusion to Eurmal, and
> "created" Bolongo to be Disorder, then fit him into certain myths. I
> wrote up some tales of Bolongo, and even a debased cult "structure".
> Unfortunately, it's my opinion that when we started actually working
> on Bolongo, he demonstrated that he's probably actually the Illusion
> Origin, while Eurmal's spells and activities qualify him for
> Disorder. So there's a bit of a mix-up here. I suppose it's only
> natural with Trickster-type entities involved.
Why not leave Illusion with Dormal, as the puppeteer connection
mentioned in RQ2 suggested, and leave Eurmal as the source of Disorder,
only using illusion?
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172)
Subject: stasis
Message-ID: <01HDCDTC2I46Q82S2D@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: 9 Jun 94 10:36:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4476
Hi all--
In my post yesterday, I forgot to mention that the Conquering Daughter
(in both prior and revised versions) holds the stasis rune (as well as
moon and harmony). She is seen as a binder of water; builder of
bridges, roads, walls (and other stasis-type stuff); stabilizer of the
provinces; and protector/shield of the empire.
--Harald
---------------------
From: pound@is.rice.edu (Christopher Pound)
Subject: Skyrealms of Jorune
Message-ID: <9406092022.AA23395@is.rice.edu>
Date: 9 Jun 94 10:22:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4477
Sandy says:
> Faulkner asks:
> >On a related question, does anyone out there know of any other
> >published gaming worlds as rich as Glorantha and Tekumel?
> There's one other, whose name I alas don't have on hand. But
> it includes weird alien beings and names with exceedingly good
> artwork, and a workable magic system.
Skyrealms of Jorune is published by Chessex these days. The online contact
is RadioJoe5@aol.com, who definitely welcomes inquiries about the game.
---------------------
From: DevinC@aol.com
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 09 Jun 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <9406092041.tn1026422@aol.com>
Date: 10 Jun 94 00:41:16 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4480
Devin Cutler here:
Alex writes:
"Oooo, imagine, the deadly sin of Not Giving Someone the Last Word."
It's the eighth deadly sin -)
"For my money, one parting of the Red Sea is worth quite a few "wasn't that
a lucky escape from apparently certain death"s."
My whole point is that those who believed the Red Sea parted still didn't
witness it first hand. Therefore, their belief was less perfect, less
complete than a Gloranthan's.
" I find it more credible to believe that there's a range of faith
on both Glorantha and historical earth, which at the very least overlaps
substantially between the two. Earth has thrown up quite enough religious
maniacs that to suppose Glorantha has many, many times more of them is a
rather off-putting idea."
And while I, too, believe there is some overlap, I feel that the overlap is
much less than you do. Also, I don't see the fact that Glorantha is filled
with "religious fanatics" as a bad thing. In fact, it lends a great deal of
fanatic tension to the whole. And it gets away from the D&Dism of "Yeah, I'm
a cleric of XXXXX. Worship? What do you mean worship?"
"Is this particularly different from the situation of the ancient Hellenes,
or
the pre-Christian Celts?"
No, but I still submit that the ancient Hellenes never witnessed en masse (or
even individually) gods wielding their power in the way Gloranthans do.
"Not unlike the Malkioni, no?"
The Malkioni are an ENTIRELY different case, and I have never had a problem
with them as they are being portrayed. And yes, I might find the average
Rokari peasant less devout than an Orlanthi peasant...and more cynical too.
"I don't believe Gloranthan afterlives are "provable" in any meaningful
sense.
I fact, I'm inclined to believe many of the claimed afterlives in cult
writeups are downright false. At any rate, determining whether any
particular
person has gone to any given afterlife, and whether they're having a great
time there, is at the very least exceedingly difficult. (Beyond afterlife
claims like "you become a spirit", which is somewhat provable, but not
relevant to most of the afterlives marketed by the various cults.)"
This when a spirit can be contacted and spoken to with the right magics? This
when Ancestor worshippers commune with and interact with the dead all of the
time? This when the Stormbulls can see the Eternal Battle with their own
eyes. This when Humakti, Zorak Zorani, et al can bind the dead into ghosts?
"How many people believe they've seen a Real Miracle at Lourdes (sp?) say?
Now, perhaps you think their standards of proof are shoddy, or that they're
plain ol' gullible, but it seems improbable to me that they display whole
order of magnitudes less faith than the "Glorantha's different" school of
thought appears to maintain."
Nevertheless, I submit that they do display whole magnitudes lower, since
they do not witness healings on the order of, say, that healing spring
written up in an early TOTRM (I think it was issue 3 or 4). Wounds do not
close up at Lourdes in a matter of seconds as you watch. Diseases and Poison
do not disappear inside of minutes. The dead do not come back to life. In
fact, I would doubt that anyone at Lourdes has actually witnessed a healing
that has occured within, say, an hour. Terran miracles are so much less
provable and more subtle. A person bathes at Lourdes and, say, 3 weeks later
is cured. Well, who's to say the miracle occured at Lourdes? It could have
occured 2 weeks later by eating a bowl of cereal.
"Because it means you don't have to be Good to get magic. You don't have
to believe any particular thing to get magic, or indeed anything at all.
Indeed, you can be be fairly lax and cynical and get at least some magic
from your god. Magic is fairly "routine" stuff in Glorantha, compared to
earth, so the mere fact that gods can evidence and grant it isn't likely
to make them quite the objects of universal and unquestioned awe you seem
to envisage, and as they might if they manifested in the middle of Piccadily
Circus tomorrow, and started lambasting the hapless residents with
unaccoustomedly irreproducable, but painful, results."
First of all, someone's bad is another person's good. If I worship Ragnalar,
I am good if a rape people. So there is really no such thing as a Bad God. In
any case, I do not envision gods giving divine magic to anyone who pays the
price. I play that they only grant their magic to those worthy of such. Yes,
the Gloranthans have a wider variety of gods, but once they choose, they must
be devout to that god, or switch and become devout to another.
One can say that the widespread use of magic, instead of causing people to
become blaise about worship, causes them to be devout, since in a world where
everyone else has magic, someone not attached to a god will have a rough time
of things. Therefore, I don't picture Atheists and Agnostics doing too well
in Glorantha's Theistic areas.
"Rather I argue, just because
you don't think religious people should have believed in their gods, due to
their inablility to produce magic on a regular basis, they weren't convinced
that their deities were impotent."
But they WERE less convinced in their deity's potency, simply because that
potency was not hitting them in the face constantly.
"It does? Most afterlives aren't even (claimed to be) _in_ the spirit
world"
This is news to me. I preasumed that the Cat Spirits and the Plant spirits,
and the other Spirits mentioned in a Different Worlds article implied that
most spirits were the deceased cult members serving their god by becoming
allied.
"Its very reliability could lead one
to the alternative conclusion that it was just some form of sorcerous
manipulation of the requisite elements, backed up with some POW sacrifice,
rather than the conscious intervention of some entity.
I'm half-tempted to bring up Illuminates."
The simple fact that any schmo off of the street cannot walk up to an altar
to Babeester Gor and get Axe Trance is a sign that a deity is involved. Also,
the fact that apostates lose their Divine Spells is another. In any case, do
you want to seriously argue that anything over 1% of the non-sorcerous
Theistic ares of Glorantha believe that?
Also, I mentioned on the RQ monthly conference on AOL that I had heard
somewhere that Gbaji was believed to be the Tongue of Wakboth. Anyone else
heard of this?
Regards,
Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com