From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 10 Jun 1994, part 3 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au (Graeme Lindsell) Subject: Time Enough and Loskalm. Message-ID: <9406100401.AA20221@Sun.COM> Date: 10 Jun 94 18:59:57 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4481 Alex writes about Time: >On the other hand, was 0ST the "Real" start of Time? The Westerners don't >seem to think so. The Dara Happans of only a few years after the supposed >event don't seem to think so. So what's the deal? If Time suddenly >starting, fundamentally changing the nature of the Universe, why didn't >these blockheads notice? Does Time for the DHans start a few thousand >years earlier? What is Time itself? No one seems to have a clear grasp of what it is, except it means "God can't pay personal visits any more". The period called the Godtime seems to be causal ie there's no myths about the event preceeding the cause. What did happen at 0 ST was that the sun rose. Time might even be allegorical: saying "Time is what separates gods and men" is the same as saying "Long ago the gods walked among men". For societies like the Theyalans, it's easy to invent the concept of another god that then separates the old gods from the mundane world The rising of the Sun would appear to be one of the "Days the Magic Changed", but it doesn't seem to have that huge an effect on the Dara Happans 200+ years later. It probably isn't coincidental that Malkion reappeared to Hrestol so soon afterwards, though (released from Hell with the rest of the gods? Do the Theyalans have Malkion there as part of the compromise?) Time may be entirely a God Learner concept. The GL's could have decided that it was too dangerous to HQ into the period after the sun rose for some reason (and then no doubt promptly broke that rule). >Does Time for the DHans start a few thousand years earlier? Do they have a concept of Time as opposed to time? To them, the withdrawal of the gods is due to the corruption of the earth world, isn't it? >I think the interesting case is this: we can HQ back to any "point" before >the beggining of Time, and pretty much merrily change it however we like. >(Put that Gift Carrier down, Sending Gods.) Interesting thought just stuck me: the God Learners were destroyed when their alterations to the hero plane not only destroyed their magics but also made it impossible for them to have ever discovered them. Suddenly all the people they thought they'd vanquished (the Waertegi, the old gods Kraloreli etc) reappeared or regained their strength and attacked them. Of course, all these people remember how they were all still around, just waiting and preparing... >HQing back to the Dawn Age, even if it were possible, wouldn't put you in >the "mundane" First Age world (at least in the first instance) But in the second instance? To exit in another time you'd have to leave the heroquest path you started on and then join or create another. >I fact, I'm inclined to believe many of the claimed afterlives in cult >writeups are downright false. Just registering my support for this statement. Some of what they believe has to based on faith IMO. Sandy Petersen writes: > In what way does bronze technology prevent printing presses >or universal literacy? Bronze AGE, not bronze. Or should I start ignoring all those introductory parts of the Glorantha:Genertela pack that talk about how young all the Gloranthan cultures are, and how many modern concepts should not be applied to them? I don't deny there are some cultures in Glorantha that I think could attempt this. The Mostali, certainly. The Brithini and Kraloreli, perhaps. But I doubt the Lunars could. >They, too, have demonstrated an ability to destroy their world, so I >wouldn't look down on their technology too much. Their world is a whole lot more fragile than ours. (Which is why I think the Days the Magic Changed are essential acts in it's preservation - the less magic, the less ability to self destruct). If the "they, too" refers to current Earth technology, our ability to destroy the world is far less than theirs. > But "more hierarchic" doesn't >necessarily mean overtly evil. Consider: if any noble has the right >to summarily execute (say) any adult peasant, I don't know if they do. The King is described as the "poorest man's resort". I think only the King and the Council have the right to High Justice, but as in the middle ages, I suspect the nobles can imprison any peasant or knight they want. (The wizards maybe not). >Alex, the entire thrust of your reasoning on this subject seems aimed >at demonstrating that the Loskalmi are _able_ to be villainous. This argument was had out 2 years ago between me and Nick Brooke on this same list (I was on your side then, strangely enough). His point was that the Genertela books section on Fronela was so slanted in favour of the Loskalmi that it veracity was doubtful. My stace was that we should accept what were told as true. But what were told about the Loskalmi doesn't say _anywhere_ that they are tolerant, reasonable people, except to each other. It's not that they're villianous IMO: it's that they appear fanatical. As for the status of women, none are mentioned in the Loskalm write-up. The only data on Western women refers to Seshnela and the Brithini. I've heard a second hand report from Greg that Loskalmi women can't fully participate in the Hrestoli religion, but I can't remember who told me, or how long ago it was. >Suggestions are invited for what the alternate female class-justifications >would be for. Goodwife, Healer, Enchantress and Lady, IMO. The main difference is that Western women are trained as doctors instead of fighters. >After all, technically the wife has no class of her own. No, she's a member of the class "women", who have different rights and duties to the four male classes. It's possible therefore that men from any class could marry a women of any birth without stigma (though I doubt it works that way in practice). > But I'm still not convinced that the Rokari women have but a >single class. Arguments one way or the other? Single class: it's what the Brithini profess (but don't even practice themselves) Multiple classes: it's what medieval europe had, and Rokari society is obviously modelled on that. My proposal: The Rokari Church officially says there's only one female class, but in practice a women inherits the class of her parents. She probably has even more difficulty than Brithini women in trying to learn any of the skills of her class, though; we're told that Rokari women are housebound in the Western Soldier "What my father told me". The Church teachings are used to justify this, even as the noble ignore it to get good marriages for thier daughters. Mark S writes: >Loskalm is the one major power not ruled by some god emperor. Esrolia is no great military power but has a large population. It seems to be ruled by an oligarchy of noblewomen, and to have "normal" politics as well. Seshnela's king is no god-emperor either, unless he's the god of obesity. >Gonn Orta = Genert? Very interesting. He could be a surviving fragment. Loren falls for Loskalmi propaganda: >"Who would want to be a rebel in Loskalm?" is a question that accuses the >Loskalmi of suppressing rebellion. But it isn't the question I asked, which was "Who would want to be a dissident in Loskalm?". Try this example: some peasants who were part of the entourage of a diplomat return to Loskalm, and then go to the local Lord and say "We would like to worship the Great Green Mother Ernalda, who is the source of all the worlds food. We have seen her bounty in foreign lands. We have no desire to disobey you, and will continue to server and worship Hrestol and the Invisible God." What happens to these suckers? Now, you might say these people are rebelling. Their Lord certainly would. Now, oppression of foriegn beliefs happens in all cultures, Gloranthan or Earthly but IMO Loskalm represses _all_ others. Like Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia for example. Here's part of a dialogue I once wrote of an encounter between some Lunar missionaries from Riverjoin and some Loskalmi peasants, before the missionaries arrest. Missionary: "In the Lunar Empire there is freedom of religion: We are free to worship any god we wish (as long as it isn't Orlanth)" Peasant: "It's just the same here, we can worship any god we want, as long as it's the Invisible God" -- Graeme Lindsell a.k.a lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au Research School of Chemistry, Australian National University, Canberra. "I was 17 miles from Greybridge before I was caught by the school leopard" Ripping Yarns - Tomkinson's Schooldays. --------------------- From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake) Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 09 Jun 1994, part 5 Message-ID: <199406100549.NAA17305@wambenger.cs.uwa.oz.au> Date: 10 Jun 94 05:51:12 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4482 I vote for the Lunars having some very primitive printing technology. Personally, I like the idea of the Lunars having bascially mastered woodcuts, and similar systems, making the preparation of anything for printing an extremely laborious process, suitable only for something that is going to have several dozen copies produced. They use this technology only for forms, official pronouncements, and sometimes short documents that must be distributed widely. Perhaps some form of 'penny dreadful' style mass printing. I really dislike the idea that the Lunars have any really developed printing technology, as it would be quite out of step with their technology otherwise. And as for these Postscript interpreting elementals! Purest God-Learner heresy. Why don't you just open a shrine to Zistor the machine god while your at it! Woodcuts I like, however. Printed books I do not. Still, I could be convinced otherwise, but I dislike the idea of a developed technology in one area when it is anachronistic - if they have printing, they have other technologies of comparable vintage. Cheers Dave --------------------- From: henkl@yelm (Henk Langeveld - Sun Europe / Network) Subject: Re: Hero Plane surfing [From: Greg Stafford] Message-ID: <9406100710.AA04508@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM> Date: 10 Jun 94 11:10:59 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4483 [In reply to X-RQ-ID 4445, Joe Lannom's wild musing... -HL] Greg Stafford: Nice images. I believe she sits in the center. Remember that her Web is the "interrelatedness" of all things, and that the Center is a metaphorical center. Yelm was caught in her web, in that description published about him darkening and the nets appearing int he sky. Runes, on her web, are like a set of climbing tools on mountains. Fancy pitons, etc. But watch out for the rockslides. Even nylon ropes can't help then. - g ---------------------