Bell Digest v940611p2

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 11 Jun 1994, part 2
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk


Subject: misc
Message-ID: <>
Date: 10 Jun 94 12:53:27 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4485

Visibility of magic

Strangers in Prax gives the answer to the question about visibility
of magic. Spririt and divine magic shows clearly as a colored glow
(page 76), but can be concealed by scratching one's nose (page 14).
Sorcery is invisible (page 76).

Campaign worlds

I recommend Harn.

Game systems

There have been some very negative remarks about harnmaster and
rolemaster here. I have played and enjoyed both. Harnmaster is
largely a RQ clone.


I don't think that the number of terms has a direct corelation
to the importance of relatives. Danish has no words for 3rd,
4th, 5th etc. cousins, but many more words for closer relatives:

moster mother's sister
faster father's sister
onkel  man married to one of the above

morbror mother's brother
farbror father's brother
tante   woman married to one of the above

f{ae}tter male cousin
kusine    female cousin

mormor    mother's mother
morfar    mother's father
farmor    father's mother
farfar    father's father
bedstemor grandmother
bedstefar grandfather

halvf{ae}tter, grandf{ae}tter male second cousin
halvkusine, grandkusine       female second cousin

({ae} represents one letter)

yet to us relatives are about as important as to the English.

Klaus O K


From: (Jonas Schiott)
Subject: This and That
Message-ID: <>
Date: 10 Jun 94 17:17:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4486


>Mike Dawson said
>>About David Dunham's Campaign write-up
>>REally good, even though it was about...initiation.
>While I can take credit for the writeup and being GM, Jonas Schiott sent me
>the actual scenario.

We have decided to make this scenario, "Growing Pains", electronically
available to all askers. I don't want to post it here, as it's 130K or so.
But I will happily e-mail it to anyone who wants it. Oh yes: though some of
it _is_ about initiation, a lot is also about heroquesting and
responsibility and all sorts of heavy stuff.


>>Does anyone on this list know if the Tekumel mailing list is still active,
>>and if so at what address? The one I tried was a year or so old, and it
>>just bounced my query.
>As far as I know it is dead. Look up the newsgroup.

A pity my local server doesn't carry news...

>There is also a movement afoot to archieve the transcripts of this group
>somewhere, but that hasn't been settled yet.

Is there no archive of the dearly departed digest?


>Why not leave Illusion with Dormal, as the puppeteer connection 
>mentioned in RQ2 suggested,

You mean Donandar, I presume. A good idea, IMO.

(      Jonas Schiott                                   )
(      Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria      )
(      Goteborgs Universitet                           )


From: (The Lotus Jukebox)
Subject: Huh?
Message-ID: <>
Date: 10 Jun 94 03:20:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4487

 Why not leave Illusion with Dormal, as the puppeteer connection 
 mentioned in RQ2 suggested, and leave Eurmal as the source of  
 Disorder, only using illusion?




From: (Mr S.W. Jones)
Subject: Sam's Campaign.
Message-ID: <>
Date: 10 Jun 94 15:21:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4488

	You said you'd send on copies of your campaign write-up to all
comers, however the message is getting bounced. Oh, I'd love a copy 
by the way.


From: (S.Phillips)
Subject: Let me through - I'm an Eurmal
Message-ID: <>
Date: 10 Jun 94 17:44:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4489

Greetings from Sam.

>Varmandi:  KoS seems to imply they retook Tarkalor's keep, and possibly
>some of Ormthane Valley.  Plus some of the land north of the Swan River,
>and probably Redbird and at least some of the Brambleberry Hills.
I play that the Malani hold redbird. Don't ask me why - I think I *did* have
a reason. Darned if I can think of it now, though.

>>   Eurmal is definitely a Murderer.  No question.  Who unleashed Death?
>Was Oppenheimer, then?

An Eurmal? Without a doubt. He found death and passed it on. Big laugh.

>If Eurmal was a Murderer, there should be a myth of him killing someone/thing.
>I don't doubt there is, I just want to know what it is.  Frankly, if he
>had hold of it all that non-time, he'd have been having a very off non-day
>if he hadn't _used_ it himself.

I see Eurmal as an "egger on" than a murderer. Anyone can kill someone - what's
the fun ion that. A trickster would try to get someone to murder someone else.
The bigger the challange the better. I could see them causing big fights. Wars
even - just for a laugh.. "things were getting boring round here".

I also see Eurmal as a ghoul. "Let me through - I'm a ghoul!"...
Enjoying the disorder surrounding accidents and the like. Nay, worshipping.
Perhaps such events of random disorder are holy times to the Eurmal. High
Holy days could be - whenever the next big disaster strikes..

I have received so many requests for my Sartar Notes that I am going to have to go home and rethink. They are not in readily E-mailable form. I could try
getting them into one, or getting them looking nice and posting them to whoever
sends a SAE. Await further orders. This message will self destruct in 10 secs..

Anyway, just a wee posting today. Got to go and see the bank manager and taste
carpet fluff and shoe polish. He's a hard man ;-) can anyone lend me a tenner?

--Sam x.


Subject: Moonbroth; alien babies
Message-ID: <>
Date: 10 Jun 94 16:10:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4490

Call Mother is way too powerful for a spirit spell.  1 point
divine maybe, or 2 point.

That Varton Mamigon must be a very exceptional Oasis Dweller to
have the will to court a lunar priestess.  Most (all) of the male
Oasis Folk would be too scared to do that, or indeed anything
involving danger.  Yeah, he's headman, but he must be a part-
nomad who was left here by his tribe (maybe he's lame, or they
had to flee the Lunars?).  

You've got two different guys listed as Oasis Folk headman.

_Two_ inns?  Even one stretches my credulity.

If people liked Malcolm's Moonbroth, I could post some of my
notes on Cam's Well.

Re: Alien babies
Mystic Musk Ox, please tell Paul Honigmann that if he lines the
inside of his hat with aluminum foil, the orbital mind control
lasers won't be able to affect him.  For best protection, line
the inside AND outside.

;-) Martin


From: (Nils Weinander)
Subject: Patchwork posting
Message-ID: <>
Date: 10 Jun 94 20:17:27 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4491

Nils Weinander writing. (Mr S.W. Jones) in daily June 08:
>	On a final note I have a unofficial write-up of the Donander
>cult (it needed one) if anyones interested - or I can pop it on the Digest.

I would like to see it on the Daily.

Sandy in daily June 09:
>Nils, defending Europe, sez:
>>Ever been to Sweden? If you travel along a road in northern  
>>Scandinavia, you loose any notions about over-populated Europe.
>	I was partially joking. But in any case, who predicts a war  
>in Sweden? You've managed to keep well out of it this whole century.  
>For that matter, compared to parts of the U.S. (or Australia), Sweden  
>is _densely_ populated. Here you have a land smaller than Montana,  
>but with a heck of a lot more population.

I forgot the :-), :-). But, just for argument's sake: southern Sweden
is densely populated in comparison, the northern half isn't. As for
wars we have been fortunate enough to stay out of war this century and
the last.

Malcolm's Moonbroth writeup in daily June 09:

Great job!

>Second, I would like to hear
>comments about it. What did you like? What did you hate? How is it
>different from your Moonbroth? What would you change?

I liked it a lot. I have only two minor gripes: the names of the
lunar people there don't sound lunar to me and given the scarcity of
forest in Prax I think the walls of the fort should be made of stone
and adobe, with no wooden palisade.

Paul Honigmann in daily June 09:
>    What struck me was that Roman Empire was affected by the success of the
>Chinese, generations before and thousands of miles away. Neither empire knew
>where the Huns went / came from. It struck me that if you were running a
>Kralorelan, Pentan or Redlands based campaign you could use this as background
>politics driving the nomads to invade the Redlands.

That's a thought. The Kralorelans drove the trolls out of Ignorance, they
went north, pressing the Pentans westward etc.

Also very interesting ideas on lunars and insanity!
_____ on gargoyles in daily June 09:

Another great piece. I really like the copper gargoyle leaders becoming
Copper Sands.

>  And, while I'm asking, to what degree do 
>you all think gargoyles are "alive"? (ie. do 
>they eat meat/veggies, do they breathe, do 
>they breed?)  Personally, I don't think they 
>breed.  Nor do I think they age.  If they eat, 
>it's rock and minerals.  For some reason 
>though, I think they breathe.

If they have such needs a diet of sand, water and air seems
appropriate. I don't think they breed.

Loren in daily June 09:
>Summing up, it seems to me that Loskalm is the land of Plato's
>Republic, where everything works perfectly, not a fantasy version of
>Mussolini's Italy.

Then there are the people calling Platon a proto-fascist...

Joerg in daily June 10:
>Nils, why did you let the uppity storm boy kill Yang Long, and not 
>Yelm, a well known figure in Kralori myth? And what did happen to 
>Kralorela after Yelm had been slain?

I love the expression 'uppity storm boy'! It seems I forgot the
{comment} on Yang Long in the text. Yang Long _is_ Yelm. I thought that
since Yelm is the name of the sun god in Dara Happa and Dragon Pass,
Ehilm the old Ralian name, Somash the name in Teshnos etc. he should
have a Kralorelan name in Kralorela, so I came up with Yang Long, the
sun dragon. I have similar names for the other Sky deities: Dayzatar
is Tien Long, the celestial dragon, Polaris is Shing Long, the star
dragon etc. I might be dead wrong giving the sky gods draconic
identities, but until convinced that this is so I kind of like the

As to what happened in Kralorela after Yelm/Sun Dragon's death, my
theory is that Yelm passed on the empire to other emperors long
before and that the dragon magic brought to use for the empire by
Daruda protected Kralorela so well during the Darkness that the
empire survived a lot more undamaged than most other lands.

>Metsyla was a deity of light as well, not unlike Antirius a portion 
>of Yelm keeping watch over part of his realm, and like Antirius formed 
>prior to Yelm's death. RQ Companion states (top of p.9) that "soon 
>dragons guarded the Light of the East" during Daruda's reign, during 
>the Storm Ages. But this source also states that Daruda faded to death 
>when he witnessed Yelm's death.

That reference is mighty interesting. I'll have to look it up. The
Antirius parallell is also interesting. I began thinking about Kralorela,
Teshnos and the East Isles before GRoY came out, so I haven't really
tried integrating its stuff, but read it as a historical writing rather
than mythlogical "reality".

A question about Teshnos: its early history, pre-Dawn and first age
is REALLY sketchy. Anyone got any info/ideas/wild hunches?

I add my voice to those who want to take a look at Sam's Sartar
campaign stuff. Material for a Digest or three?

That's it for today, no Red Tiger stuff I'm afraid.

/Nils W


From: (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: Loskalm and religious dissidence
Message-ID: <>
Date: 10 Jun 94 08:56:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4493

Here's my take on how a Loskalmi lord would handle a bunch of peasants who
want to worship Ernalda:

First, he would send a wizard around to instruct these well-intentioned, but
misguided, folk on the difference between true religion and barbarian spirit
worship.  Ernalda, after all, is just a big spirit, not a true God in the
fully transcendent sense of the Invisible God.  After all, the fact that she
grants spells to her followers and helps them out is nothing more than what
spirits do for barbarians and their wierd shamans, isn't it?  It's all just a
matter of scale.  Worshipping Ernalda is about as absurd as worshipping your
own hoe.  If you want more fertile land, my children, till it in the love of
the Invisible God and work it well.  Do not resort to easy paths with hidden
costs and unthinkable results.  Remember, Ernalda is just a big spirit, not
a God.  There is only one God and Malkion is is prophet.  The Invisible God
loves you and forgives you for your misunderstanding.  Let us pray, my 

If the peasants persist--calling for an Ernalda "priestess" and setting up
"shrines" or "temples" to this spirit, then the Lord is permitted, nay, he
is REQUIRED, to take sterner measures.  A proper Lord would first simply let
it be known that worship of the barbarian spirit will not be permitted, for
the good of the souls of the community.  If the peasants persist, the Lord
is then forced to undertake direct action, probably arresting the ringleaders
and turning them over for trial.  If they are fortunate, the ringleaders may
be given the opportunity to repent their errors and return to the bosom of
the Invisible God.  If they are recalcitrant, they must be eradicated as a
threat to their fellows' well-being and to society.  A virtuous Lord, who
truly follows the traditions and laws of Loskalm, will do his best to avoid
this extreme situation, and would much rather cajole and convince his peasants
back onto the correct path.  This is not to say that there are no hot-tempered
rulers in Loskalm, who go too far too fast, but such behavior is not considered
to be the proper way of doing things.

Thus, dissent is tolerated in Loskalm, so long as it does not go too far.
All are permitted to be in error, until they have been properly corrected.

(Gee, this is pretty much how nearly ALL human societies work, no?  It's all
just a matter of how much "error" a particular society will tolerate in 
particular areas.  For USA society, substitute "underage sex" for "religion"
to get a similar response.  For Liberal USA society, substitute "anything that
isn't politically correct" for "religion".)


From: (David Gadbois)
Subject: Racoons
Message-ID: <19940610190901.2.GADBOIS@CLIO.MCC.COM>
Date: 10 Jun 94 09:09:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4494

    From: (Joerg Baumgartner)
    Date: 9 Jun 94 13:24:25 GMT
    X-RQ-ID: 4469
    Does anybody know why raccoons featured so greatly in pre-God
    Learner mythology? They are one of the prime examples of bad God

Huh.  The only mention of racoons that I recall was a one-liner in the
background section of G:CotHW that mentions how the God Learners killed
the racoon demon guarding Tusunimmi Ford and, as a joke, replaced it
with Mr. Racoon, who had previously been protecting Dr. Rock from the
greedy Raven of the Sunset Isles.  Lance Purple took this idea and ran
with it, creating a insanely cool heroquest to recover the racoon demon
from the City on the Edge of Doom so that Mr. Racoon could return to his
rightful place.

Where else do racoons come in?  Personally, I can't stand the nasty
critters.  The big 20 kilo ones we have here make real pests of
themselves terrorizing cats and getting into trash cans and attics.

--David Gadbois


From: (Kevin Rose)
Subject: DI out of temples
Date: 10 Jun 94 12:26:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4495

I seem to remember Greg wrote a fairly long article dealing with DI in 
wyrm fotnotes way back when.  I don't have the article handy, but the 
relavant gist was that you could DI out of an other gods temple, but not 
into another gods temple.  (I think it was a "Rune Fix" article.)

Kevin Rose


From: (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Scotland, not Sartar.
Message-ID: <>
Date: 11 Jun 94 01:14:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4496

> 	Hmm. Never heard of a horticulture drawback being  
> insufficient sun rather than insufficient rain. But I guess Scotland  
> IS incredibly far north -- after all, all of the continental U.S. is  
> far south of it. Which is why, I suppose, the perennial problem in  
> OUR bad lands is lack of rain instead. 

For most crops, the problem is either Too Cold, or Insufficient Sunlight.
Too much rain as such isn't likely to be a problem, as such, though we
get a lot of it, and _all (bloody) year_.  (Some (strange) people grow
(small) cacti in their gardens.)

> 	You can't grow orchards in Scotland?

If Sam said this, he was obviously under the influence of exam-induced
endorphins.  I've an apple tree in my back garden, which is one of the
wettest places this side of Bergen.

> I always thought  
> that orchards were an easier thing to grow than an annual crop such  
> as corn. 

Indeed.  Don't quote me on what grains are grown in Scotland, but I think
it's limited to (relatively) small scale wheat, oats, and barley.

> 	If Clearwine isn't made from grapes, then what? 

It is grapes, I'm sure it says so explicitly.  Of course, people in
Scotland _do_ make wine, from all sorts of other things, but that's by
the by.

Roderick Robertson:
>    Lots of sheep only since the Highland clearances you mean. C'mon
> Sam, you must have seen those great shaggy Highland cattle. Used to be
> the foremost export of Scotland. Of course, once the English decided
> that Sheep don't rebell every 5 or 20 years... 

And cattle do?  The clearances replaced crofts, not cows, with sheep.
(There are indeed still cows in Scotland, but now mostly Frisian dairy
herds.)  Not for nothing is Mutton Pie one of our national (heart-failure-
inducing) dishes.

> > >the ground's so steep a cow'd roll off
> > -Arf! Thats why haggises have one pair of legs longer than the other..
>   Haggis? it's everything a civilized person feeds to the dog. Liver, 
> lungs, intestines and oatmeal. Stuff it in a stomach, boil or steam
> until it all runs together, and season to taste. :-P 

We know, we're perpetrating an Old Joke...

>   As far as someone else's question about using boys to herd, it takes 
> a heap of boys to do it.

Absolutely.  Dogs have more stamina than people (even than Small People),
are faster, especially over rough ground, and can grin at sheep in a more
menacing, hungry way.  Some people do herd sheep without dogs, but popular
alternatives are using a motorbike (not usable in Sartar due to risk of
being hung as a time-travelling God Learner); or from horseback, which is
likely to be more expensive, and is going to be popular only where horses
are actually bred, rather than imported.  If the ground is hilly, riding
becomes less fun, and if your sheep are on the Upper Starfire Ridge, forget
it.  (At least if said ridges are anything like the Laing Craigs, my local
large basaltic plug.)

On the other hand, herding cattle, or horses, with dogs is much trickier,
and is going to need fairly tame animals, or a Very Big Dog.

>    Also note that, at least in Scotland, the cattle and sheep tended 
> to scatter when startled, instead of staying in a clump. Independent 
> little brutes!

Only, I think, if you startle them so much they forget to look where the
others have gone.  They tend to graze somewhat apart, and then drift back
together then they become Concerned.  Keen viewers of One Man and His Dog
will recall the many small disasters of The Shed (splitting a single sheep
off from the small group being herded).



Subject: Malkioni classes/castes
Message-ID: <>
Date: 11 Jun 94 01:49:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4497

Graeme Lindsell:
> Alex Ferguson writes:
> >Female caste stricture: do what hubby/daddy/nearest upwind male authority
> >tells you to.

>  Very likely. It's been pointed out to me (by John Hughes and Paul Reilly)
> that if there is a single female caste, then it's a class, not caste system.
> According to John, the definition of caste is an "endogenous (i.e. in-marrying) 
> occupation based social structure".

Hrm, this sounds _pretty_ picky to me.  By this definition, the Brithini
don't have a caste system, which is hokey.  Firstly, I think the term isn't
used so strictly on Earth: the south Asian "Islamic caste system" (used
by subcontinental Moslems, based on the (endogamous) Hindic castes system)
isn't (strictly) endogamous.  Furthermore, the definition obviously didn't
anticipate the sexes being assigned to _different_ castes, which makes the
definition fail even for systems which are entirely caste-like, such as
a hypothetical Malkioni caste system with four male and four female castes,
each only able to marry one of the other.

On the other hand, I agree that the Hresoli system is more class-like, given
the possibility of social movement.

> > Also, Alex gives many forms of execution, a wonder to behold and a joy for
> >any wide ranging party.

I didn't say this, but I applaud the (lack of) taste of whomsoever did. ;-)

>  This alternative scenario explains a great deal IMO: why the
> West seemed to be Brithini at the Dawn (Hrestol is referred to
> once as a Talar), why the Rokarian attempt to return to pre-Hrestol
> Malkionism is basically recreating the Brithini with Solace.

Hang on, is "Talar" only a Brithini title?  I thought the sects used the
same titles, but perhaps I need a remedial course here.  But at any rate,
what else would one call Hrestol, since any other caste terminology couldn't
have been invented yet, his own (if any) being the earliest alternative.

> In this scenario, it's Hrestol's revelation that
> breaks caste strictures and causes aging, not Malkion's.

Woo...  Is there a reason to blame either?  I think I see the logic, but
would any sect (other than the Brithini, natch) go for this?

> It's even possible that Malkion said nothing about immortality (ageing
> may not have been a big problem that far back in Godtime).

Malkion arrived after Death, so I tend to believe that even if no Brithini/
Malkioni had died to this point, they became aware of the possibility.  I
tend to think Zzabar had "invented" immortality at this point, and Malkion
came along to quibble with his methods.