From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 13 Jun 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au Subject: The Misunderstood Scorpion People Message-ID: <01HDFA3230OM93BM9K@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> Date: 12 Jun 94 03:33:35 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4502 G'day everyone, _________________________________ The Misunderstood Scorpion People Paul Reilly writes: >>Lon-Eel ... has a strange book about how everything will be >>wonderful once the Empire rules the world. Once the borders of the >>Empire and the Universe are the same, the Crimson Bat will no longer >>be Chaotic... Sadly her _next_ book was even wackier, describing how >>Broo and Scorpion Men and the like were really quite nice, if you >>gave them a chance. (She of course lives in GLamour and has never >>met one of these creatures). In Tales #8 (the Chaos Feature), I suspect Jaxarte Whyded is telling us about his experiences with one of Lon-Eel's books when he writes: "...I had of course been taught by the good sisters of Teelo Norri in my school days that the Lunar Way accepts and encompasses all creatures: great and small, lawful and chaotic. The sisters had even shown us engravings of chaotic beings, so that if we encountered them we could tell them about the Red Goddess. I remember my classmates and I, with gaping mouths and wide eyes, staring at a picture of a goat-headed broo, clad in a neatly-pressed linen kilt and ludicrous straw hat, sharing his plate with a smiling citizen. Another: a scorpion-man, taking a group of laughing children for a ride on his back (how much then did I too wish I could sit on top of a scorpion-man!). Perhaps the most bizarre of the collection was that of a walktapus, graciously climbing into a boiling pot, to provide a meal for a group of starving villagers, standing around the fire with adoring faces. How different were my first chaotic beings in reality!..." [excerpt from "Jaxarte and the Chaos Fiends" in Tales #8] Cheers MOB --------------------- From: DevinC@aol.com Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 11 Jun 1994, part 2 Message-ID: <9406110533.tn1072872@aol.com> Date: 11 Jun 94 09:33:17 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4503 Devin Cutler here: I would be very interested in getting the Intiation/HQ scenario you mentioned. Thanks Devin Cutler devinc@aol.com --------------------- From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) Subject: Kralori Dragons, Wenelian Gods Message-ID: <940611093247_100270.337_BHL44-1@CompuServe.COM> Date: 11 Jun 94 09:32:48 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4504 Nils has translated some Kralori names for us: "Yelm" = Yang Long, the sun dragon "Dayzatar" = Tien Long, the celestial dragon "Polaris" = Shing Long, the star dragon I like these and will use them. Thanks! Got any more? > I might be dead wrong giving the sky gods draconic identities, but until > convinced that this is so I kind of like the idea. No problem at this end. Kralori *like* dragons. > I began thinking about Kralorela, Teshnos and the East Isles before GRoY > came out, so I haven't really tried integrating its stuff. Good. Don't bother. Nobody in Glorantha ever has. The Glorious Reascent's account of Dara Happan myth is non-God Learned (it pre-dates the God Learners) and was never assimilated into the monomyth, as the God Learners never got to Peloria (cf. the Secrets Book appendix: "The Pelorian mystical geography was almost virgin territory since the area was never actively part of the God Learner's conspiracy"). So it hasn't been shoehorned/pruned into the Monomyth. Only latterday God Learners like Joerg attempt to do so: their incompetence is proved by their existence. ;-) As Sandy said yesterday, to cope with weird and different mythologies the God Learners spawned splinter groups. The Six Legged Empire was one such; the False Dragon's Ring was another. Kralori myth has not been mulched and systematised into the Jrusteli Monomyth, and a good thing too! It was to some extent mucked around with by a bunch of "carpetbagger" parasites, but purely in the quest for power, and not with the intention of harmoniously integrating it with the theories of the Middle Sea Empire. So we have two non-standard mythologies -- "almost virgin" Dara Happan pre- God Learner tales, and schismatic non-monomythised Kralori False Draconism (if the latter had any lasting effects, which is hard to prove one way or the other). Why on Glorantha should the two be compatible/comparable? (A rhetorical question, if your answer is "Because the gods speak Tradetalk"). Just my opinion, of course. _____________________ Gods of the Wenelians A while back I posted my own guesses about the gods of Wenelia. Joerg asked a bunch of sensible questions (and a few others), but I was working 24-hour days at the time and didn't get round to answering them. So, apologies for lateness, and here goes: > What happened to Entru and Entruli? The Entruli people? Through speculating about Esrolian origins, I came to theorise that Entru and Genert are similar figures (N-T-R; N-R-T; anyone who has tried to read books on hieroglyphic decipherment will follow this!). Entru is the First Man, as Esrola/Asrelia is the First Woman. The First Man runs around wild in the forest and ruts with animals; this is the origin of the Entruli: barbarians. The First Woman mates with serpents, or ears of corn, or other things (I've only seen the Puppeteer Troupe's comic version of this, as the Esrolite women won't let men into their temple), and her children, male and female, are the Esrolites: civilised folk. This is of course an Esrolite myth, explaining why all the people of the Manirian forest think they're different animals, but intermarry anyway. It also allows them to feel superior: foreign men (and women) are barbarian animals, but our women (and men) are civilised people. "Entruli" would be the former name of the people who followed Wendel and became the Wenelians. And "Entru" would be a figure in Esrolite myth, not Wenelian. (More on him one of these months). > King Lalmor and the Vathmai tribe which settled Slontos? Happened in Slontos. They passed through 1500 years ago. What kind of trace are you expecting to find? > How did the God Learner occupation of Slontos change the Wenelians? Happened in Slontos. They thought we were barbarians. They were right. Not rich, powerful or sophisticated enough to be worth tampering with. > We see what happened to the Ramalians? Who were settled/conquered by refugees from Slontos. Not many ran into the Dark Forest of Wenelia -- and very sensible, too! > Why the Sow Mother, and not (male) Mralot? Or are both worshipped? They're the same person, Joerg: Hsunchen androgyny. But in Wenelia we have the Boar Totem clan, who fulfill much the same role as Storm Bulls in the rest of the Barbarian Belt. The Boar is the defender of the forest against anything unnatural (agriculture is unnatural to the Wenelians); he berserks in battle, and can be calmed or commanded by the Oak Woman. So Sow Mother is included as a general deity, and not a clan bloodline. Perhaps something similar happens with the Stag Clan and the ancestress of hunted deer? Of course, this makes the Esrolite "Entru" myth rather suspect if Wenelians claim their male ancestor was the Boar, Stag, Lion, Fox or whatever... > Do any of these relate to the Aram-ya-Udram story? Incidentally. (The First Council story, not the Gouger one). Aram as human ancestor was one of the reasons I was so keen on scattering pigs'n'boars everywhere in this primitive barbarian setting. Note also that Tusk Riders can be found all through the Wenelian Forest. The parallel between Gouger and the Boar is because they're both the same species, which does the same kind of thing. Not a conscious connection. > Is Wendel more a human hero (like King Heort, inhuman though he appears), > or rather a Trickster deity? Both? A bit of both. But his "cult" would be rudimentary, I think: most likely an Ancestor Worship variant like Votank, with perhaps an awe-inspiring Fire- bringer power (like "Ignite" spirit magic). I don't know his story, yet. > What makes swords so rare in Wenelia, when the joint forces of the Holy > Country regularly are beaten by Greymane and his sons? Not many in those joint forces have swords. The Esrolite infantry don't (I see them as a peasant army with spears, clubs, etc: like an ancient Middle Eastern levy), and they're the majority of Greymane's victims. Now the Heortlendings do, of course, but the "joint forces of the Holy Country" ceased to exist in 1616 at the Lion King's Feast, the first time we know they encountered the Wenelians. (My assumption is that the earlier "wars" are skirmishes between raiding bands and local defenders). Which is to say: Greymane and his sons have *once* defeated a Holy Country army in which the toughest, most-able-to-flee troops carried swords. And ever since then, the Heortlendings have had problems at home to distract them from Esrolia. So I don't think there's a glut on the sword market in Wenelia. BTW, the "Esrolian Humakti" from MOB's Lottery Swords are more a product of the cosmopolitan urban Holy Country culture than a reflection of what goes on out in the sticks, IMHO. The confusion in Gloranthan studies between Esrolia and the Holy Country is long-standing; the exaggerated role given to Lhankor Mhy is the worst part of it. Like imagining Ptolemaic Egypt was run by librarians on account of Alexandria. One last word. The stuff I'm rabbiting on about above is all my own work, part of the background research I did for an Esrolian RuneQuest campaign. It shamelessly extrapolates from what we've been told, interpreting and interpolating and binning the bits I don't like. It isn't "official": you can take it or leave it. I get sad when people say they feel "a bit Nicked" whenever I open my big mouth, but there's sweet F.A. I can do about it, short of shutting up. And that's not an option I'd consider... ==== Nick ==== --------------------- From: DevinC@aol.com Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 11 Jun 1994, part 2 Message-ID: <9406110558.tn1072993@aol.com> Date: 11 Jun 94 09:58:47 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4505 Devin Cutler here: Argrath (aka MC) writes: "If people liked Malcolm's Moonbroth, I could post some of my notes on Cam's Well." Please do so or send to me personally if you like. Sandy writes: " Despite the multiplicity of "sun deities" you mention, Glorantha has only ONE sun, Joerg. God Learners or no God Learners, that point's hard to argue. " Yaaaayyyyyyy!!!!!! :-) Sandy also writes: "Ancestor worshipers worship ghosts. The Eternal Battle is not an afterlife place -- it's a pre-life place, if anything. You can't contact your dad there. Humakti, Zorak Zorani, etc. can make ghosts, yets. But a Ghost does not an afterlife make. What about heaven? What about hell? Even Earth has folks who believe in ghosts and don't believe in heaven or hell. A ghost's existence is far from being necessarily interesting and desirable. Even the Ancestor Worshiper's ghosts are in constant dependence on their followers to maintain their existence. AND, more importantly, most dead people don't become ghosts. There's certainly no guarantee that YOU will. (Unless you're an Ancestor Worshiper, with a cult structure set up specifically to do this for you.) In other words, when you die, mostly you become unattainable to normal human techniques, or even magic ones. The Ancestor Worshipers, fearing oblivion, have learned how to turn _everyone_ into ghosts, so having at least that pale substitute for an afterlife made certainty. If you're an Orlanthi or Yelmite, you got no guarantees. " I have always been under the impression that Daka Fal Ancestors do go to some sort of heaven or reward. Do you mean to say that they exist somewhere else? Where then?...on the Spirit Plane I suppose. In any case, as far as I'm concerned, once I know that magic and ghosts and gods exist, it is much easier for me as a Gloranthan to accept the certainty of an afterlife than it is/was for Terrans. "The fact that you can be Bad according to your own culture's mores implies that you need not follow your culture's ethical standards to get magic. So why bother? " First, In arguing the opposite side of the argument, make sure we don't go too far the other way. Are you saying that Gloranthans have no devotion to their gods. That is what the above sentence seems to imply. Why should I worship Orlanth when I can get better magics from "Bad Gods"? Second, yes, maybe a culture can have specific gods regarded as bad, but on an individual basis, almost no one does acts that they themselves consider evil (I'm certain Hitler, Stalin, et al would describe themselves as righteous and good people). The fact that an Orlanthi Sartarite might turn to worship, say, Thanatar, in order to gain personal power does not mean that person sees himself as evil, rather, he sees strength, survival of the strongest, and personal enrichment as good things and can probably justify to himself that his actions actually make Glorantha a better place for all (i.e. he is weeding out the weak and unworthy). " They don't get to be priests too often, I agree (unless they mask their lack of belief), but they can get all the spirit magic they want, and that's certainly enough for everyday activity. The God won't deny spirit magic to any initiate, if only because the priest doesn't check every single initiate to see if he's "worthy" for that Healing 2, if he can pay for it that is. 95% of MY characters only have spirit magic, and they get around okay. " This may be a difference in campaign style. First, I do not see how, according to the RQ3 rules and GoG, a non-initiate of a cult or a non-associated initiate of a cult can obtain spirit magic from that cult. Same for shamans. This leaves out those who might save a priest's or shaman's life and get magic as a reward. But I think that Mr. average Atheist is not going to get any cults to teach him spells for any price (albeit perhaps corrupt priests). At the very least, an Atheist needs the spell Summon Spell Spirit to begin to learn spells on his own. Ever since RQ3 came out, I have tried to get away from spells as a commodity or unit of currency in Glorantha (which it seemed to me was how RQ2 worked). I view even Spirit Magic as a small cult ritual, and that even though cults share Spirit Magic spells, I picture that on some metaphysical level, a Humakt Disrupt is different from a Seven Mothers Disrupt. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk Subject: Another Class Post from Sandy. Message-ID: <9406111109.AA26280@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 11 Jun 94 11:09:57 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4506 Sandy: > Alex F. opines: > >Since Hrestoli caste isn't fixed by birth, it must be defined by > >one's occupation, social standing, and stuff. In fact, I'd not be > >in the least surprised if Loskalmi society were even more hierarchic > >than Seshnelan, since it has a meritocratic "justification". > Yeah, that's what I said. But "more hierarchic" doesn't > necessarily mean overtly evil. Eh wot? You seemed to be making quite a differebt argument, that caste was a sort of "existentialist" thing. I am a Talar because, well, I'm a Talar. But anyway, I certainly didn't espouse the "hierarchy is evil" line. > Of course not, at least not without the prior approval of the > Lord, and proof that the new owner will be able to farm it in the > style to which the Lord has become accustomed. I'm sure that a Lord > can sell his ruling rights to a swatch of land though. In this way, > each piece of land actually is "owned" twice -- once by the peasant > himself, and once by the Lord. The Lord having more rights to it than the peasant, in fact. Effectively, the guys you're describing sound like tenant farmers with some legal or customary protection. (Leasehold and freehold being the "two ownerships" you mention, I suppose.) > Alex, the entire thrust of your reasoning on this subject seems aimed > at demonstrating that the Loskalmi are _able_ to be villainous. If I have an Entire Thrust, and I somewhat doubt it, it's that the main reason for supposing a Good Loskalm is wanting one, not that it shows irrefutable signs of being Utterly Wonderful. > >Everyone seems to have it in for Jonatela these days, but I don't > >see that much evidence that it's all that stratified or repressive. > Cut me some slack, Alex. The only printed information on > Jonatela is from the Genertela book, and I quote: "The ruling class > has an iron grip upon the populace. No guild councils protest these > lords' taxes, and when peasants revolt they are routinely > slaughtered. Great castles are build spanning the walls of most > cities: signs of terrible oppression." > Now, tell me again your own Jonatela theory. Eh, Orlanthi propaganda? ;-) (Okay, so managed to miss the only actually relevant section: kill me now.) Note that I don't renounce the mention of Jonatela in my Riverjoin thingy, since it tacitly agrees with the above picture, from "the other side". > >I've no particular axe to grind about which Malkioni are really "bad > >guys", and which are goodies, or if they're all one of the other, > >but I question the hidden assumption here that we should decide this > >all in advance > What a very strange thing to say, Alex. What could possibly > be wrong with deciding ahead of time which cultures are going to be > "generally benign" or not? Benign to whom? Is Dara Happa "benign", generally or otherwise? Lest Joerg and yourself come to the Contest of Weapons again, let's just note that these things are open to different views. My real gripe against this method is that if one determines who're the Good Guys before knowing much about them, it leads to the danger of having whatever otherwise sensible decisions one might make about them overly conditioned by their need to be excessively nicey-nicey. There are certainly elements of this in the Hrestoli vs. Rokari discussions that spring out here, for instance. Mind you, I suspect they're not too far wrong. Admittedly, there's a good excuse for it in this case: someone asked, presumably having a need for such in his campaign, but to go decide on an Official Morality Level map of Glorantha would be going a bit far. > Alex, on haloes, sez: > >it seems likely for Carmanian and Loskalmi saints, at least. > Carmanian, I agree, because of the solar influence. Why > Loskalmi? Because they are near enough to have got the idea from Carmania (the two have been practically adjacent in the past, the _last_ time Loskalm annexed most of Fronela...), are iconophiles, and crypto-henotheists. (Well, they worship Visible Saints, at least.) > >Is a farmer husband "worthy" to have a noble > >wife, if class corresponds to social worth? > Consider: if a farmer weds a farmer, then rises to knightly > rank, while her husband stays a farmer, is the wedding dissolved? I > say no, because nobody would stand for it. I agree, but I don't think the alternative scenario is likely other. This was a reductio ad absurdum argument against meritocratic females castes, not a call for Quickie Laskalmi Divorce... > I'm not convinced that female classes are interpreted just > the same as men ones. Suggestions are invited for what the alternate > female class-justifications would be for. I suspect that the > qualifications for being a Lord are the same as for a man, because > women are manifestly as good at magic as any man, so they can be > expected to master the Wizard class just fine. What about Knight? The reason I suggested the classes being interpreted the same way was, of course, precisely because those Non Equal Oppurtinity Employers the Westerners would likely use this as a means of "blocking" female advancement. "Can't swing a 15lb Greatsword, dearie? No promotion to Wizard for _you_." I'd be surprised if the West had female clerics or rulers; it took the Church of England several centuries to manage the former. > >>the [Jonating] "Farmer" castelings are actually Ernalda worshipers, > >> who have nothing to do with the Invisible God. > >What are all these "Farmer, civilised"s doing in the G:G 3 book, > >den? > Why can't an Ernalda worshiper be civilized? They are in > Esrolia, y'know. True. But what's with 25% sorcery users in _every_ occupation? (Well, apart from Sorceror and Priest, natch.) > > If a [Rokari] woman wanted to marry into a higher caste, things > >would get even uglier, I bet. (I wonder if the general rule would > >be "both assume lower class", or "both assume husband's class". > >Some Rokari regions may outlaw intermarriage outright. Or consider > >it a "sin" against caste law. > Even if intermarriage is outlawed or a sin, it will still > happen, and I bet it's not annulled. Just do your penance, or pay > your fine or whatever. I'm not so convinced it will happen this readily; after all, a Wizard has to assent to marry them, and if he doesn't recognise the upper class members of his own flock, he's been using Tap INT on himself for fun. (On the other hand, if the prospective hubby is a Talar...) I can certainly envisage intermarriage between non-adjacent castes being annulled, if not more drastically terminated. > I submit that if women are considered to > be a "single" class, though notionally subdivided according to the > father's class, then I suggest that the rule is "both assume > husband's class". After all, technically the wife has no class of her > own. Indeed, the above question assumed women belonged to the four "normal" classes. > But I'm still not convinced that the Rokari women have but a > single class. Arguments one way or the other? Arguments that it's a moot point, as it essentially is with the Brithini? > Anyway, after these labors, we're sitting there stuck with > the Movement/Change Rune. Who is that Rune's origin? I tried > suggesting that Orlanth was the Origin, but I couldn't convince > myself. So in the end Greg came up with Mastakos. If he seems to be a > "minor" "not-real" god, mea culpa. And Grega culpa, too. Hrmph. Despite this entertainly "RQ-designer-level" explanation, I still maintain: being a Source/"Greater" God is a highly overrated occupation. I don't think it fundamentally _means_ anything, beyond being an interesting exercise for bored God Learners. And aren't they all? Alex.