Bell Digest v940613p3

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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 13 Jun 1994, part 3
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From: (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Following-up Sandy, it's a full-time job.
Message-ID: <>
Date: 11 Jun 94 18:43:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4513

> [...] the Hrestoli believe that, in  
> order to be a "full man", you must master all of life. How can you do  
> this without being a farmer?

Very easily, apparently, given the "Farmer" class occupation table.
Even the actually "peasant" type jobs vary widely, many being entirely

> 	Note also that the Hrestoli have to some degree recognized  
> the unworkability of their idealistic system (which, to work  
> perfectly, would seem to require lifespans far beyond the human  
> norm), and as a result have created the job-categories of Squires and  
> Acolythists, which are technically Farmer-caste, but no doubt have  
> shown talent in the military or magic field.

"Talent", also pronounced "ancestry" by the cynics.

> 	There is another point you're missing -- among the Rokari and  
> Brithini, Wizards aren't supposed to fight, Knights aren't supposed  
> to farm, etc. But among the Hrestoli I unequivocably state that the  
> Knights are allowed to farm, the Wizards to fight, etc. You still get  
> skilled warriors -- they're just called "Wizards".

I'm a bit hazy about this idea: what _are_ the Hrestoli class prohibitions,
if this is so?  The usual ones, but "downwards closed"?  (First graph
theory, now domains. )

> 	That said, some Lunar units certainly carry shortswords but,  
> again, it is probably a sidearm to the spear they normally fight  
> with.

Perhaps not the Gladius, but a short scimitar/long sickle sort of affair?
Is there a Saxon sword of this general size?  (Not a falchion, or a seax,
they're bloody huge.)  I refuse to plunge to the depths of (cavalry) "sabre".

> 	No one in Glorantha, as far as I know, has invented the Roman  
> Legion. It would probably kick butt among the undisciplined Orlanthi  
> and rigid Lunar phalanxes. On the other hand, it may not hold up to  
> well against the Pent or Prax nomads. 

Or the typical Western army, even.  The Legions were not happy campers
against heavy cavalry of any half-decent sort.  I agree about the Lunars
(and Yelmalions) being comparable to the Macedonians et al., rather than
Rome.  (Who defended (relatively) better against horse, for the obvious
reasons, but would not have impressed against the Romans, being less well
trained and organised all round.)

> >> When Chaos came into the universe, its initial point of entry  
> >> was at the north edge, above the glacier. They tipped up the sky  
> >>dome to crawl under it, and the sun fell from the sky

> Joerg wonders:
> >Which sun fell? Yelm was dead and gone to Hell, Antirius shone above 
> >Dara Happa, the Sun Dragon over Kralorela (?), Elmal over  
> >Kerofinela, Somash over Teshnos, Kargzant over the Pentan reaches,  
> >Yelmalio within the elf forests, Yamsur within Genert's Garden.

Somash I'm very skeptical of: expect a non-un-Yelm-like GLised Life/Death/
Rebirth schtick in that part of the world.  Kargzant I _want_ to know about:
have we agreed that the Pentans _do_ worship Kargzant, rather than Yelm?
Or both, in some unspecified way?  Others are plausible "fragments", but
probably all actually the same body. (Well, maybe.  Antirius one could
certainly argue about.)

> 	Despite the multiplicity of "sun deities" you mention,  
> Glorantha has only ONE sun, Joerg. God Learners or no God Learners,  
> that point's hard to argue.

Nevertheless, I'll have a go.  Firstly, notice that Orlanthi tales don't
imply that the sun fell/went out, but that it dimmed.  (After all, their
_sun god_ guards the stead.)  This could mean that Elmal = Lightfore,
for this purpose.  Equally, for most of Dara Happan pre-History, there _was_
a sun (one of three, in fact) in the sky, after the death of Yelm.  My
suspicion is actually that there were in fact only two "suns", in terms of
Celestial bodies ("Yelm" and "Lightfore"), the rest of the "swirling"
being in the minds of of confoozled DHan scholars.  All this assuming
(for purposes of argument) that the myths exhibit "historical" truth, and
not just "mythic" truth.

> 	The sun that fell to the Earth was the only one that was in  
> the sky. However, the Six Legged Empire (remember, descendants of the  
> God Learners) said that it wasn't _really_ the sun that fell from the  
> sky. Because they bought into the Monomyth, their claim was that the  
> Sun had already fallen from the sky when Chaos entered the world

This seems to imply Sandy thinks the Monomyth is (nearly) literally true
in the north, and completely flase in the south.    Impressively

> >What about Rahmuktara south of the Sea of Worms?
> 	What are you talking about? Where can I read about  
> Rahmuktara? Until I get further info, could be. Almost anything could  
> be south of the Sea of Worms. Who would go there? A wooden ship finds  
> it impassable -- spend too much time in that sea, and your hull is  
> riddled with shipworms to the point that the vessel literally falls  
> apart around your ears. (This happened on Earth, too.)

Dwarfs, concrete ships, tales #11.  A wooden ship would be par-boiled by
the time it got to Rahmuktara, too.  It's occupants, lightly saute'd...
Effectively zero information on the place, though.

> 	The monomyth suffers severely when you try to fit the Doraddi  
> beliefs into it. I mean, just consider: Qualyorni the troll god comes  
> and cripples Artmal BEFORE the sun falls from the sky. The Origin of  
> People completely contradicts Grandfather Mortal's story. Eurmal the  
> trickster is believed to be the Creator of the world and most life.

A Golden Handshake for those whose model of the Godplane encompasses no, or
reversed, causality, multiple origins of the universe (or anything else),
and other minor local difficulties.  A Golden Shower for those who thought
it was 4-Euclidian space-time. ;-)

> 	Second, and I view this as more likely -- Whitewall, Sartar,  
> and Heortland (until you, Joerg took it all over with Aeolians) are  
> the Most Advanced Orlanthi in the world.

But don't you see?  Joerg's Aeolians are Very Advanced Orlanthi, Indeed. ;-)
"Too Advanced By Half", mutter some of their countryfolk.  And as Joerg
will be about to say, "You mean Hendrikiland, Sandy, not Heortland."

> The destruction of Orlanthi's "head", his most competent. fierce, and  
> well-organized practitioners, could mean the end of the God, at least  
> if the Lunar plans work out. 

On this whole subject, I think the Lunar claims are indeed hyped/laced
with porkies, but I certainly think you _could_ destroy Orlanth by
eliminating all worshippers.  Break a leg.  Lunar plans would indeed destroy
the Rex cult, but only because it's not known elsewhere, so no great loss
to them, right?  Except that this makes his claim to be King of the Gods
a bit shaky, one supposes.

> Note for all: A number of perfectly standard, conventional Heroquests  
> occur during what is technically Time. For instance, Yelmalio greets  
> the Sun upon his Rise. This happens on Day One of Time. 

Woo...  I think I feel a fallback to my (recently) Prepared Position,
here, that you can maybe HQ to (anywhere in) Time, but if you're trying
to _change_ anything, rather than observe, or reenact, or eat your packed
lunch, you'll get your head eaten clean off.  Loss of hearing in both ears,
vision impaired, and Permanently Spiritually Dead Forever('n'ever), to
paraphrase a Drolemaster crit. table.  Unless you're a) faster than she
is, or b) faster than a very large number of your Companions.

> 	In any case, I'm willing to admit that the Lunars don't have  
> printing presses. They have some sort of mass creation of written  
> forms, though. Perhaps a spirit spell that they manipulate through  
> Lunar Magic: "Duplicate Text". 

Trained walktapi wielding quills?  Can even supply their own ink.  A HQ'd
corollary to Devour Scroll, which reverses the effect, as often as needed?
"Hey.  This Menu detects as chaotic!  Must be ogre-hide!"  More prosaicly,
perhaps they use screen printing.  Plus kids in Inductory Imperial State
Scholaria use halved Lodraples, carefully carved into various symbolic or
representative shapes, and dipped in scarlet ink, to make instructive
tableux featuring many Well Known and Loved Modern Mythic Figures.

> Mark S.
> >>Loskalm is the one major power not ruled by some god emperor.

> I wonder if the Elf Kingdoms count as  
> having a god-emperor. They each have a High Council. 

I think the Vronkali count, at least by the hyperbolical terms of the above.
If aldryami are eco-socialists, the green elves seem to be somewhere in
the Late Stalin Period.  (While the emblymi, are perhaps more Chairman Mao's
widow, and the Mreli are Hampstead Heath sixties retreads, quite manifestly.)

> Gonn Orta = Genert
> 	While Gonn Orta is obviously _not_ Genert himself (for one  
> thing, if Gonn Orta is Genert, who's the giant corpse in the middle  
> of the Krjalki Bog?)

Err, dunno?  More input?

> >Try this example: some peasants who were part of the entourage of a
> >diplomat return to Loskalm, and then go to the local Lord and say  
> ">We would like to worship the Great Green Mother Ernalda

> 	THE LORD IS CRUEL: he kills them quickly and without fanfare,  
> lest others hear of their heresy.

have the choral-master compose Hymns to St. Ernalda the Bountiful, and
if she answers, let her be praised throughout the land."  

> However, Loskalm  
> may be MORE liberal with regards to certain other aspects of society. 

To wit?  Fire ordinances as regards heretic burning in built up areas?

Kevin Rose:
> The obvious effect would be that a given lord would be, for example, 
> Baron and Bishop of XXXX, while the senior nobles automaticly get more 
> temporal and religious authority as they prove themselves.  (Actually, 
> I would expect that in such a system only the temproral rank would be 
> used, as their religious authority is assumed and obvious.)

Or vice versa: the Bishop of Durham is simply My Lord Bishop, not
(also or instead) Earl Whatever.  But I agree with the general point,
Church of England upper clergy had very much this sort of dual role.



From: (Barron Chugg)
Subject: Lunar Tricksters
Message-ID: <199406112230.PAA02475@popserver.Stanford.EDU>
Date: 11 Jun 94 08:30:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4514

  I was running down the Seven Mothers-Light Bringers parallel when I
noticed that the Lunars don't really have a Eurmal/Trickster analog. 
Matching 7M for LBs leaves the match of Danfive Xaron with Eurmal, note
exactly similar dieties.  Although you could (as I did) argue that DX is
how civilized/regimented cultures deal with their deviants (i.e. whip them
back into shape), while Eurmal is the barbarian way (let them be themselves
and give them a ritual duty).

  Anyway, I was wondering if I had missed an obvious Lunar Trickster.  I
seem to recall someone quoting Greg as saying that "creation was impossible
without the Trickster", or words to that effect.  So, is this Lunar lack a
crippling difficulty, or is the Red Goddess innate "flaunting the rules"
character enough of the Trickster for them to get by.

  On other notes, I have been greatly enjoying the campaign notes and run
synopsis that have been appearing lately.  I'd like to add the suggestion
that people could post synopses of interesting characters they have run or
run for.

Yours in Disorder (or was that Illusion)...



From: (Roderick Robertson, SC1-5, x52936)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 11 Jun 1994, part 2
Date: 11 Jun 94 23:40:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4515

>Roderick Robertson:
>>    Lots of sheep only since the Highland clearances you mean. C'mon
>> Sam, you must have seen those great shaggy Highland cattle. Used to be
>> the foremost export of Scotland. Of course, once the English decided
>> that Sheep don't rebell every 5 or 20 years... 

>And cattle do?  The clearances replaced crofts, not cows, with sheep.
>(There are indeed still cows in Scotland, but now mostly Frisian dairy
>herds.)  Not for nothing is Mutton Pie one of our national (heart-failure-
>inducing) dishes.

   Of course they do! You don't remember the great cattle rebellion of 
1725? (or The '25, as it's known). French Cows from the channel 
tried to put one of their bulls on the throne of Scotland, but 
it broke. :-)

    The Highland clearances moved the people off, yes. They were 
replaced with large-scale sheep farms.The biggest exports iin Scotland 
for most of the middle ages were cattle, timber, and Mercenaries.

> > >the ground's so steep a cow'd roll off
> > -Arf! Thats why haggises have one pair of legs longer than the other..
>   Haggis? it's everything a civilized person feeds to the dog. Liver, 
> lungs, intestines and oatmeal. Stuff it in a stomach, boil or steam
> until it all runs together, and season to taste. :-P 

>We know, we're perpetrating an Old Joke...

   Yeah, and I'm answering with my standard reply to those American Scots who 
think haggis is the Be-All-End-All of Scottish cookery. I used to be 
in a Scottish re-creation group out here in California. We'd dress up
in 16th C. gear and work at Highland games, telling people of Scottish
history pre-Bobbie Burns... 



From: (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 11 Jun 1994, part 3
Message-ID: <>
Date: 12 Jun 94 00:22:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4516

  Paul here.  Lots of stuff to reply to, but no time.  Maybe more tomorrow.

  Nick writes:

> Eurmal played a great joke once when he found out how to give water many of 
> the properties of fire. Fortunate clans who know the secret can drink it in 
> Sartar to this very day, and it's one of the trade items most coveted by 
> Praxians. I'm not sure if the god of this distillation process is Tanian...

  I play that the Mostali have distillation and that some humans have
learned, stolen, copied, or developed it independently.

  Mostali can use Alcohol as fuel.  Distilled is good - undistilled might
gunk up their innards.  In particular Irondwarfs, who spend a lot of energy,
like to refuel on the hard stuff.

  In some areas with Human-Mostali contact, this has given the Dwarf warriors
a great reputation as Warriors Who Can Really Hold Their Liquor.  Never
challenge an Irondwarf to a drinking contest...


From: (David Dunham)
Subject: Humakt; typical warriors
Message-ID: <>
Date: 12 Jun 94 04:17:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4517

Jonas said of East Ralios Humakti:
>No, Humakt is (was) disliked _because_Arkat_was_a_Humakti_. The fact that
>he betrayed the cult naturally makes it look silly to boot. In our current
>draft, we just have two Humakt temples, one in Kilwin and one in Dorflik (a
>city in Safelster that we made up from whole cloth).

The Humakt subcult worshipped in Ralios is Makla Mann, who remained
faithful to Arkat even after Arkat betrayed the cult. I see Humakti joining
Makla Mann because they want to prove how loyal they are. "No, your
thaneship, you don't have to worry about me betraying you, because I bear
these Makla Mann tattoos. They mean I will swear an oath of loyalty to you
which means more than any other ties I might have." If the Humakt cult
hadn't had this paragon of loyalty to hold up to the outside world, they
would have completely gone away. Ironic, since Makla Mann's loyalty was to
Arkat, but it was a virtue nonetheless.

(You mean Dorflik is a city in Saug.)

Mike Dickison had some real nice stuff about Wenelia. I liked the format,
and will try to use it for the two areas I've run in:

A typical East Ralian:
Harall is a prosperous warrior of the Taskenth clan, with a large herd of
cattle, a gaily painted chariot, and a team of ponies. He shaves his chin
to show off his flowing moustache, which drags in his bowl. Except in cold
weather he wears no shirt, to impress everyone with his many fine tattoos.
Harall is fond of bagpipe music, and once gave a gold armband to a piper
who inspired him in battle. He was exiled for a year after assaulting a
traveller who belittled the Taskenth clan's beer.

A typical Grazer:
Yanordar is a heroic warrior with many decorations on his coup stick, proud
to have earned Warrior status so he can engage the enemy face-to-face with
his lance. He discusses at great length with his clan's Warrior age group
how they'll acquire many horses so they can offer a rich bride price and
marry well. His hair is kept back by the beaded headband made by the girl
he's picked. Yanordar is fiercely loyal both to the Ghost Horse clan chief
and to the Feathered Horse Queen, and is unhappy that the two disagree so

                #### The How-To-Tell-The-Barbarians-Apart Table ####

                East Ralios

Weapon 1        Sword
Weapon 2        Craisech (blade-spear, like a halberd)
Shield          large rectangular (not pictured in RQ3)
Missile         Sling

Clothing        Trews
Colours         checks, tweeds, and plaids

Music           Pipes, Harp, Flute
Skill           Drive Chariot

Famed For:      Storytelling, Epic Poems


From: (Nils Weinander)
Subject: This is not a good subject line
Message-ID: <>
Date: 12 Jun 94 16:19:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4518

Martin (Argrath?) in daily June 12:
>If people liked Malcolm's Moonbroth, I could post some of my
>notes on Cam's Well.

Please do!

Peter's duck Humakt story:
>Hope this gave a few laughs.

It did.

Sandy in daily June 12:
>The Sun Dragon was a solar substitute -- the Kralori know that  
>Yelm was killed.

It seems I'm on the wrong track with my draconic names for the sky gods
in Kralorela (damn it, this must be the most difficult Glroanthan name to
write on a keyboard. I get it wrong on the first attempt _every_ time).
Where can I find more about this Sun Dragon?

/Nils W