Bell Digest v940613p4

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 13 Jun 1994, part 4
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk


---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: Sandy's comments
Message-ID: 
Date: 12 Jun 94 20:18:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4519

Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 4492

I said:
>>I don't think the Lunar Empire has any water connections other than 
>>through Annilla or inherited from the Dara Happans.
> 	There's the Young Elemental connection. And Annilla's  
> connection is pretty strong, you gotta admit. 

My point exactly (although I have to admit I forgot Squire Sea).

>	Despite the multiplicity of "sun deities" you mention,  
> Glorantha has only ONE sun, Joerg. God Learners or no God Learners,  
> that point's hard to argue. The Sun that was up in the sky fell to  
> Earth. The Sun Dragon was a solar substitute -- the Kralori know that  
> Yelm was killed. Yelmalio was never the Sun, just a "spark" god. And  
> Splendid Yamsur is another "spark" god. 

Yelm was killed, and fell from the fiery orb he claimed as his own down 
into hell. (Even the Dara Happan myths corroborate this, telling us how the 
sun split uo into fragments.)

There were some solar bodies in the sky afterwards - not only the Artmali 
Empire was crushed by _a_ falling sun, the Dara Happan city of Mernita was 
as well. (GRoY p.26)

My interpretation of the vision of the muliple suns (in RQ Con-booklet) 
is that there were a whole bunch of solar bodies clustered around the 
imperial orb, shedding light and warmth in unison. Only when Orlanht 
had killed the central and unifying piee (Yelm), the lesser suns were 
left to roam th esky on their own. Some fell, like Antirius or the 
Artmali sun, others persisted, like Elmal, Kargzant, or the Sun Dragon.

What is the Teshan tale about the Darkness?

> 	The sun that fell to the Earth was the only one that was in  
> the sky.

In Pamaltela? Everywhere? Why did it fall?

> However, the Six Legged Empire (remember, descendants of the  
> God Learners) said that it wasn't _really_ the sun that fell from the  
> sky. Because they bought into the Monomyth, their claim was that the  
> Sun had already fallen from the sky when Chaos entered the world, and  
> that when the sky bowl tipped up and caught the Artmali empire on  
> fire, it was just a bunch of Aether and stuff pouring off the top of  
> the universe. 

My take:
When the sky dome was toppled, fragments of the sun were shaken loose, and 
fell down on earth. Wherever they landed, close by it will have appeared 
that it had been the sun which came down, not just a fragment.


>> What about Rahmuktara south of the Sea of Worms?
>	What are you talking about? Where can I read about  
> Rahmuktara? Until I get further info, could be.

Tales 11.

>	The monomyth suffers severely when you try to fit the Doraddi  
> beliefs into it. I mean, just consider: Qualyorni the troll god comes  
> and cripples Artmal BEFORE the sun falls from the sky.

As a God Learner with access to GRoY I can counter that Antirius fell 
from the sky long after the trolls had fled from Hell.

> The Origin of  
> People completely contradicts Grandfather Mortal's story. Eurmal the  
> trickster is believed to be the Creator of the world and most life.  

Now you tricked me. Eurmal the Trickster, in Pamaltela? Wouldn't 
that be either Ratslaff or Bolongo?

The story that Fire (the Agimori ancestors) and Water join to create the 
plants is very easily included into the monomyth - isn't Flamal a child 
of Sea and Fire? Doesn't death appear only after the Agimori drink water, 
procreate and age, and isn't death the prerequisite for being buried, 
and having (medicine) plants grow on one's grave? Just make these 
ancestral Agimori a bit more divine, and let Grandfather Mortal come 
into play later, when the first beasts will have been created.

If you want a monomyth (as the GLs did), you need to reinterpret the 
events until they fit.

> It's all screwed up. No wonder the branch of the God Learners that  
> conquered the Doraddi had to become a whole separate organization  
> from the Jrusteli to keep things straight. 

One more reason why I dislike Bolongo's inclusion into the Genertelan 
Rune sources. In CoT the Doraddi and the Hsunchen are classified together 
by the GLs as Naturalists. They have little to do with Runes. The Mystics 
of the East haven't either. This leaves the Humanist western and the Theist 
central Genertela for these views.

>> why does the [Lunar] empire ignore Ralios?
>	What the hell can they do about it? They can't get troops  
> into Ralios. It's hard even to send individuals -- you got to either  
> go through Dorastor, a non-trivial project, or go the loooong way  
> around by sea and then walk overland through Tanisor and Safelster. 

What can the Lunars do about Ralios? If they really wanted to, they 
could use moon boats, or the secret troll passes from Halikiv into 
Aggar (Or how did the Halikiv trolls raid in Aggar in the 2nd Age?). 
They could release some chaos on them. They could ally with the Telmori 
of Ralios, who ought to be easy targets for missionaries, and unleash 
a new Telmori empire of werewolves. They could even use the Malkioni to 
drive out the last major realm of Orlanth, through intrigue (in which they 
on Glorantha excel) or financial encuragement.

>	I suspect that events in the uplands of Ralios are not even  
> rumors in Glamour. 

Not very likely, I agree, but their existence is known.

>	Now, obviously the Lunar Empire is aware that Orlanth is 
> worshiped in Ralios and Wenelia, so why does the fall of Whitewall  
> signify the destruction of Orlanth as a power?  

>	My answer is twofold: First, it's possible that Orlanth won't  
> have fallen everywhere and the Empire knows this -- but he'll be gone  
> from Peloria and neighboring areas. 

Hmm. Invisible Orlanth in Carmania, the great temple of Oxhead in 
Skantiland, the barbarian hordes of Brolia, and the hidden lands of 
Charg aren't what I'd call gone from Peloria. (Not to mention the 
Storm tribes of Pent the Lunars are yet (1621) unaware of.)

Or did the Lunars celebrate the subduing of Yelm in the 1st Wane when 
they had crushed the Dara Happan revolt, and introduced Moonson as Emperor 
of Dara Happa? Even though the Pentans still worshipped a quite puissant 
Sun God?

>	Second, and I view this as more likely -- Whitewall, Sartar,  
> and Heortland (until you, Joerg took it all over with Aeolians) are  
> the Most Advanced Orlanthi in the world.

Hey, I said most Hendriki were Aeolians, not all of Heortland. (And 
I regard the Hendriki as the most advanced Orlanthi - they went the 
farthest when Harmast revived the Orlanthi creed after almost a century 
under Lokamayadon's distortions of their creed, beginning in the 
Second Council and culminating in the creation of Gbaji. 'Though those 
of Harmast's people who followed Talor into the West went even farther, 
maybe too far?)

> The Ralian and Wenelian  
> Orlanthi are exceedingly crude and primitive compared to them. They  
> don't have cities, they don't have walled towns.

Not true for Otkorion (another case of advanced Orlanthi bordering on 
Malkionism, but sporting a Great Temple to Orlanth in one city and an 
Archbishop in the next one).

> They're barbarians,  
> through and through. We're talking unwashed Germanic hordes, here. ;)  

Again: not in Otkorion, and not really in Lankst either, it appears.

> The destruction of Orlanthi's "head", his most competent. fierce, and  
> well-organized practitioners, could mean the end of the God, at least  
> if the Lunar plans work out. 

From KoS it appears these plans don't work out, so the Lunar reasoning 
might be faulty.

>> Why not leave Illusion with Dormal
>	Dormal? You clearly mean someone else, here. If you meant  
> Donandar, instead, we didn't think that Donandar was an important  
> enough deity to deserve an Origin. If you want to attack us on the  
> basis of inconsistency, since instead we made up a god out of whole  
> cloth, mea maxima culpa. 

Of course I meant Donandar. I really don't know how Dormal slipped in. 
Maybe Do(nandar + Eu)rmal?

I have little trouble with an obscure deity as a Runic source - look at 
Mastakos, Hykim, or Uleria, neither of whom has a major cult (structure). 
What irritates me about Bolongo is that this is a dubious deity from a 
region where people don't even know the Runes this deity shall be a 
source of, and that they regard Bolongo as not even a real and feasible 
deity. In short, why should an obscure Pamaltelan non-deity (an emty mask, 
according to Prosopaedia) be the source of the Rune most Genertelan chaos 
fighters are tied to more or less?

> Mark S.
>>>Loskalm is the one major power not ruled by some god emperor.
> Graeme L.
>> Esrolia is no great military power but has a large population. It  
>>seems to be ruled by an oligarchy of noblewomen, and to have  
>>"normal" politics as well.

Esrolia is ruled by a god emperor (at least until 1616), called the 
Pharaoh.

> 	Ditto for the Kresh Empire. At least, they don't have a God  
> Emperor (their ruler is unknown to outsiders -- I'll share my own  
> belief at some later date).

What are the Pamaltelan prophecies for the Hero Wars? We have seen 
the Genertelan ones, and we have seen most of Pamaltela in print 
(Umathela in Breakout, Fonrit in Heroes, Jolar in Tales, Slon and 
the Jungles in Elder Secrets), but I don't recall to have seen a 
prophecy. The Kresh are the last major power which has not been 
published (except by you on the Daily), plus maybe the Slarges.

> I wonder if the Elf Kingdoms count as  
> having a god-emperor. They each have a High Council. 

They have an avatar of High King Elf as war leader, as a close 
approximation.

> Gonn Orta = Genert
>	While Gonn Orta is obviously _not_ Genert himself (for one  
> thing, if Gonn Orta is Genert, who's the giant corpse in the middle  
> of the Krjalki Bog?),

This corpse is definitely _not_ Genert, because Genert dismembered 
himself and fed himself to Hyena.

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: RQ-Adventures
Message-ID: 
Date: 12 Jun 94 20:19:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4520

Alex in X-RQ-ID: 4501

> Nick Brooke:
>> RQ Adventures Fanzine #1 has a lot of neat details about this part of the 
>> world. Tom Zunder used to distribute it in the UK (are you still out there, 
>> Tom?), and I know the German RQers print a European edition. RQA is a good 
>> thing, IMHO; there have been plenty of worthwhile ideas in every issue so 
>> far -- and the latest one doesn't even have any Ducks! (Hurrah!)

>   I hope this is still true.  Anyone have a semi-reliable way
> to Contact Distributor?

Ask me (Joerg), and I'll send you this:

-------------------------------------------------

The German RQ-society does the European distribution of RQ-Adventures.

This works the way that we re"print" a master John Castellucci sends us 
in Germany, and air-mail it in Europe.

Ingo will offer subscriptions for five issues each, for DM 42.-, or if 
needs be, for 17.- pound stirling at Convulsions 94. We will also bring 
back issues.

Ingo's address is

Ingo Tschinke
Scheevemoorer Landstrasse 33
28325 Bremen
Germany

Free INT 7 is out. A Vikings issue. If you want to subscribe to 
this German language RQ-Zine, contact Ingo or me.

-------------------------------------------------

> If this distribution is defunct, any change of
> anyone bringing over a suitcaseful to flog at Convulsion?

We are.
-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Dragons and deities
Message-ID: 
Date: 12 Jun 94 20:19:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4521

Nils Weinander in X-RQ-ID: 4491

> I love the expression 'uppity storm boy'! It seems I forgot the
> {comment} on Yang Long in the text. Yang Long _is_ Yelm. I thought that
> since Yelm is the name of the sun god in Dara Happa and Dragon Pass,
> Ehilm the old Ralian name, Somash the name in Teshnos etc. he should
> have a Kralorelan name in Kralorela, so I came up with Yang Long, the
> sun dragon. I have similar names for the other Sky deities: Dayzatar
> is Tien Long, the celestial dragon, Polaris is Shing Long, the star
> dragon etc. I might be dead wrong giving the sky gods draconic
> identities, but until convinced that this is so I kind of like the
> idea.

From "What the Dragon Lord Whispers" I take it that while the draconic 
element is strong in Kralorela, the sky pantheon is not regarded as 
draconic. Aether, ancestor of all the sky deities, came into being as 
the soul of the Cosmic Dragon, and he "formed the sky gods from his 
sacrosanct spirit." Under the heading "How do I do magic?" it says 
"City officials have strong and true magic from the Gods of Light."

I think your view is a bit too draconic, about as much as Steve 
Gilham's Kralorela views from digest 8.6 were too Yelmic to 
be "official".

> That reference is mighty interesting. I'll have to look it up. The
> Antirius parallell is also interesting. I began thinking about Kralorela,
> Teshnos and the East Isles before GRoY came out, so I haven't really
> tried integrating its stuff, but read it as a historical writing rather
> than mythlogical "reality".

I tried to find parallels (sometime in March), but I don't think that 
there will be much beyond "Yelm made divine beings out of part of his 
substance, like Aether did, and made them guard parts of his empire (the
universe, at that "time")." I doubt that Shavayah figures in any legend 
outside of the Eastern World. I don't know how and why he left the rule 
to Daruda in Godtime (presumably long before the slaying of Yelm). Daruda 
seems to have been the Emperor of the East during Storm Age.

> A question about Teshnos: its early history, pre-Dawn and first age
> is REALLY sketchy. Anyone got any info/ideas/wild hunches?

Again I propose to look at Steve's ideas about the east.

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Malkion
Message-ID: 
Date: 12 Jun 94 20:20:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4522

Alex in X-RQ-ID: 4497

> Graeme Lindsell:
>>  This alternative scenario explains a great deal IMO: why the
>> West seemed to be Brithini at the Dawn (Hrestol is referred to
>> once as a Talar), why the Rokarian attempt to return to pre-Hrestol
>> Malkionism is basically recreating the Brithini with Solace.

> Hang on, is "Talar" only a Brithini title?  I thought the sects used the
> same titles, but perhaps I need a remedial course here.

This seems to be the case. Although it is possible that the Western words 
for "Lord" sound similar to "Talar"; we don't have any Western soundbites 
except a few Brithini and Malkioni names.
 
> But at any rate,
> what else would one call Hrestol, since any other caste terminology couldn't
> have been invented yet, his own (if any) being the earliest alternative.

Prince, as the Malkioni do.

>> In this scenario, it's Hrestol's revelation that
>> breaks caste strictures and causes aging, not Malkion's.

> Woo...  Is there a reason to blame either?  I think I see the logic, but
> would any sect (other than the Brithini, natch) go for this?

I'd rather say that Hrestol's revelation makes the curse of aging bearable 
to those who fell victim to e.g. the Spell Forbidden by Urostio. (Genertela 
Book, p.82) I think Hrestol saw the futility in keeping the caste strictures 
for those who had nothing to gain from them any more. (For a prophet, 
Hrestol seems to be a man of unusual pragmatism. As a Roman Catholic he'd 
have been a Jesuit.)

>> It's even possible that Malkion said nothing about immortality (ageing
>> may not have been a big problem that far back in Godtime).

> Malkion arrived after Death, so I tend to believe that even if no Brithini/
> Malkioni had died to this point, they became aware of the possibility. 

What makes you think this? Malkion is the father of Talar, Zzabur, Horal 
and Dronal, according to the few Malkioni legends we know.

> I tend to think Zzabar had "invented" immortality at this point, and Malkion
> came along to quibble with his methods.

I agree that the sons of Malkion did invent a way to avoid mortality. The 
Vadeli did so as well, although a different way (apparently). The "Spell 
forbidden by Urostio" seems to be a way to break the Brithini way of 
attaining immortality/avoiding age.

BTW: Any ideas who Urostio was?
-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re: Notes from Nochet
Message-ID: <9406121858.AA24313@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 12 Jun 94 18:58:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4523


Harshem's Reports  (Nochet Temple Document 116-J-4970, y. 1615)

  My master has set me to recording the tales of merchants and sailors 
returning from the Western lands, and now to editing and collating my findings.  I have found that many of the old records describing the West are inaccurate
or out of date and thus these notes are necessary.

On the Men of the West  (1093 entered by Jaro Tirn)
  The Men of the West are divided into four classes: Ruler, Philosopher,
Warrior, and Servant.  Their Philosophers wield magic much as do our own priests
but it is limited in scope although long in duration.  Their Rulers are
forbidden to use magic themselves, perhaps through fear of corruption -
lacking a divine leader such as the Only Old One they fear the foibles of 
ordinary men.  Their Warriors ride horses and are sworn to serve the Rulers in battle.  The Warriors are fractious and undisciplined and much given to
drinking and swearing.  The Servants are little better than slaves, in a bad 
year they starve.

  Harshem's comment:  The travellers I have spoken to confirm this and that
people are born into their class.  The Kingdoms of Nolos, Pasos, Seshnela and
Tanisor all follow this pattern.  However they report that the Warriors or
"kanicks" are no more given to drinking and swearing than ordinary seamen.

On Magic Bottles
  Here is a report (1594) from the merchant Teever:
  "I was determined to find the source of the magic bottles which we had gotten
in trade from Pasos.  I tracked them as far as Safelster, where we were stymied
for a time by the barbarous tongue of the natives.  Fortunately I was able
to employ a translator and scholars everywhere had some knowledge of the 
Brithini tongue."

  "The bottles come from Syran, a city there {i.e. Safelster? - H}.  It is
beatiful and rests upon a foundation of sand {??}.  The walls of the city are
of fused glass rather than ordinary rock and have reportedly withstood many
sieges."

  "The city is ruled by many Guilds of which the most important is the 
Glass Blowers Guild.  There are but twenty-five Master Blowers but each has a
group of apprentices to serve his needs.  Apprentices graduate to become
journeymen upon the construction of a magic furnace called an _athanor_.  This
is used in the making of the magic bottles.

  "These bottles are of many types and are trade goods of incomparable value.
Unfortunately the kind I was seeking, the bottles of visions, were the product
of a Master now deceased.  Each Master has his own secrets and they all vie
to make unique bottles.  I believe they pride themselves on not repeating their
earlier work and this makes continued trade difficult.  Each bottle is a work
of art in its own right save that some of the most potent are squat and ugly
as if the magic in them twists their very shape into something horrible.

 "I return with a cargo of one hundred bottles of various types which cost
me my entire fortune to purchase.  I freely give this testimony to your cult,
which I would normally keep as a trade secret.  In return I ask you to spread
the word from city to city that I have these goods to offer, and attach a
description of the bottles.



---------------------

From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Gilled Guilds and the Waertagi Monopoly
Message-ID: <940612205100_100270.337_BHL59-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 12 Jun 94 20:51:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4524

Re: Sandy's clarification on the Waertagi Monopoly

It can be fun to compare the Waertagi of the Dragonships to the Spacing 
Guild in Frank Herbert's DUNE series. They're bug-eyed, half-human fish- 
things, and their ships are ridiculously huge, but they remain the only 
people who can take you safely on those long, long voyages. In the First 
Age, at least.

Perhaps, like that Guild, they maintained a position of strict neutrality, 
being willing to transport anybody who paid their immutable (scriptural?) 
ferryman's fare? The Seshnegi would have to save up to afford an invasion, 
but their carriers would do nothing to help or hinder any military action. 
Wars are fought on land, not at sea (until 718)...


I'm not sure exile would be as common in Loskalmi justice as you suggested, 
if only because for the century of the Ban there was no point in trying to 
exile anyone: they couldn't go anywhere! Maybe this was meant as a form of 
capital punishment after all: "Go on! Into the swirling grey fog with you!"

====
Nick
====

---------------------

From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller)
Subject: Moonbroth comment
Message-ID: <01HDH4UPC0GY8WWAGY@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 12 Jun 94 20:27:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4525

It looks good, but one comment. Where'd they get all the wood you mention?
Prax is notoriously poor in wood. They'd use adobe and stone for everything,
and sod or earth for roofing their buildings. The fortifications would
be made of stone blocks quarried from nearby and brought by tribesmen
and Oasis folk whom the Lunars had enslaved for the duration of the work.

That's my only negative comment. Otherwise it looks great!

-- Loren

---------------------

From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller)
Subject: Karmanian remnants in Charg
Message-ID: <01HDH59I81H48WWAGY@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 12 Jun 94 20:39:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4526

It's a very attractive idea, that somehow the old cult of Carmanos
survives in Charg. However, the cult of Carmanos was destroyed for
several hundred years before the closing separated Charg from
Carmania. How did the cult escape Lunar spies for all that time?
I actually prefer Paul's theory about Charg, but have got to be
mysterious about it. Paul, if you want to tell people about the
Sunkiller then now might be a good time.

-- Loren