From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 14 Jun 1994, part 2 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: more Message-ID: <9406132043.AA06210@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 13 Jun 94 08:44:03 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4553 Devin says: >This may be a difference in campaign style. First, I do not see how, >according to the RQ3 rules and GoG, a non-initiate of a cult or a >non-associated initiate of a cult can obtain spirit magic from that >cult. Hmm. Apparently there's been a communication gap here. Okay, I'll lay it on the line. IMO, most Gloranthan slackers _belong_ to the local cult. The mundane advantages are too great to ignore. But, _despite this_, they harbor doubts about an afterlife, are less than vigorous about cult practices, and may skimp a bit on the ol' tithing. And, yes, sometimes they suffer impests and the like from this. I don't think there's a Secular Humanism organization in Sartar, full of atheist non-believers. Rather, lack of devotion among the Orlanthi shows itself as laxness, NOT non-membership. Most Orlanthi that are less than fanatic about their cults still more-or-less believe in the Gods and an afterlife and stuff. They just don't obey the strictures properly or fully. The point you _seemed_ to be making was that you felt Gloranthan worshipers were amazingly more faithful and devoted than Earthly ones. I believe differently, but that doesn't mean that non-fanatics are necessarily atheists, agnostics, or some other type of infidel. There's a whole range here of possible belief. The Issaries who joined his cult solely because of the financial benefits, the Storm Bull who was just trying to impress his girlfriend, the Humakti who signed up because his Dad expected him to (and he had to take his Dad's old geas, too), all of these are a part of my own Gloranthan campaign. Frex, I play that the stereotypic Storm Bull who does all the standard deeds, shows no fear, etc. is rather unusual -- a model that other cult members may strive to emulate, but rare nonetheless. After all, it requires not only the right personality, but also the proper physique and skills. It's a rare combination. Of course, there's heaps of Storm Bulls that _behave_ like the ideal, but when push comes to shove ... I bet that the Storm Khans can pick out almost at once which new initiates are going to be Storm Khans themselves some day -- "That one! He's got the courage, the muscles, and he works hard at his broadsword training. He'll make it, if he's not killed first." And I believe that the Storm Bull is one of the more dedicated cults of Glorantha. Orlanthi, being a more inclusive cult, probably has a much larger percentage of slackers. Alex, re Loskalmi land ownership: >The Lord having more rights to it than the peasant, in fact. >Effectively, the guys you're describing sound like tenant farmers >with some legal or customary protection. Yep. Still plenty of room for abuse here, but at least it's better than having _no_ protection. >I'd be surprised if the West had female clerics or rulers; it took >the Church of England several centuries to manage the former. Two points. First, Glorantha, even in the more female-repressive areas, is generally more egalistic in this regard than most Earthly cultures. Second, having female magicians is not the same as having female clerics. They might permit female magic-users while not allowing them to officiate at ceremonies (because Hrestol or Malkion was a man, or some such nonsense). >> But I'm still not convinced that the Rokari women have but a >> single class. Arguments one way or the other? >Arguments that it's a moot point, as it essentially is with the >Brithini? Well, the Brithini don't necessarily even _live_ together on a normal basis. I don't think "intermarriage" is even a consideration with them, and suspect that Brithini marriages are all ordered by the Talars, and that the woman's father's caste is rarely considered when the marriage is performed. MOB points out >John claims ... the water that far down south in the Worm Sea is >actually *boiling*! If you go far enough south, the water around Pamaltela is actually boiling, but I don't think you'd call it the Worm Sea anymore by that time. There are boiling swamps at the south end of Pamaltela, bordering on the Sea of Fire. >Top Seven Magi You'd Least Like to be Apprenticed to: >Making a hit list, got any suggestions? My own campaign boasted: Angerbad the Troll Sorcerer, who excised non-essential parts of his (human) apprentices, for "disciplinary reasons". The apprentice himself had to cook and serve the amputated bits to his master. Ruqustu the Mightful, whom his apprentice learned was actually just a familiar -- the real sorcerer was a shrivelled tiny thing kept in a bottle, who'd been reduced down to STR 1, CON 1, SIZ 1, etc, when the familiar had mind-controlled him into using Create Familiar on all his stats to "donate" them en masse. Joerg states: >Yelm was killed, and fell from the fiery orb he claimed as his own >down into hell. >There were some solar bodies in the sky afterwards - not only the >Artmali Empire was crushed by _a_ falling sun, Now see here. The Doraddi say they were destroyed _when_ the sun fell. The Six Leggers, in matching their beliefs to the Monomyth, say that the Artmali were destroyed when the sky bowl tilted and the celestial fluid poured off the top down onto them. Actually, the Doraddi of today also agree that some celestial fluid poured down from the sky. > The sun that fell to the Earth was the only one that was in > the sky. >In Pamaltela? Everywhere? Why did it fall? It was killed by Orlanth. >> The Origin of People completely contradicts Grandfather Mortal's >>story. Eurmal the trickster is believed to be the Creator of the >>world and most life. >Now you tricked me. Eurmal the Trickster, in Pamaltela? Wouldn't >that be either Ratslaff or Bolongo? The entity who created the world in Pamaltela is agreed by the God Learners to have been the same being named Eurmal by the Orlanthi. Note that the God Learners essentially agreed that all the Trickster gods were the same god, with exceptions such as Bolongo and Ratslaff. But Bolongo didn't make the world, and neither did Ratslaff (for those Pamaltelans educated enough to have heard of the Celestial Court). Eurmal is known and worshiped along the Pamaltelan coast, where he is called "The Catsup Slob". He may not be known by the same name of "Eurmal", but he's the same entity that is worshiped at the temple of "Where Did You Get That Sword, Eurmal? Put It Down At Once!" known to now exist in everyone's campaign somewhere in Sartar. >What can the Lunars do about Ralios? If they really wanted to, they >could use moon boats, or the secret troll passes from Halikiv into >Aggar (Or how did the Halikiv trolls raid in Aggar in the 2nd Age?). >They could release some chaos on them. They could ally with the >Telmori of Ralios, who ought to be easy targets for missionaries, >and unleash a new Telmori empire of werewolves. They could even use >the Malkioni to drive out the last major realm of Orlanth, through >intrigue (in which they on Glorantha excel) or financial >encuragement. Okay. I'll try to demolish every aspect of this mad plan. >they could use moon boats the moon boats can only carry a few regiments at a time into Ralios. They'd be easy meat for the teeming hordes of Ralios Orlanthi. They could barely keep an army of any size supplied. And their use there would prevent the empire from using the boats within their borders, where they provide an essential service. >they could use ... the secret troll passes from Halikiv into Aggar >(Or how did the >Halikiv trolls raid in Aggar in the 2nd Age?). Those passes are _secret_. Also, they are up in the snowbound parts of the mountains -- the trolls' trails through the mountains are only good in winter, when Lunar soldiers couldn't use them. >They could release some chaos on them. What? The crimson bat? What would happen in the border areas if they knew the Bat was gone for the next few years. >They could ally with the >Telmori of Ralios, who ought to be easy >targets for missionaries, >and unleash a new Telmori empire of >werewolves. The Telmori have been having their butts kicked by the Orlanthi for years (and vice-versa, I admit). If the Lunars could just "convert" the Telmori like that, why don't the Orlanthi Ralians just "convert" the Carmanians and use them against the Lunars?0 > They could even use >the Malkioni to drive out the last major realm >of Orlanth Except that the Malkioni are hostile and doctrinally opposed to almost every facet of the Lunar Empire. And find it hard even to _reach_ the Ralian Orlanthi (seeing as Safelster's in the way). >>My answer is twofold: First, it's possible that Orlanth won't >> have fallen everywhere and the Empire knows this -- but he'll be >>gone from Peloria and neighboring areas. >Hmm. Invisible Orlanth in Carmania, the great temple of Oxhead in >Skantiland, the barbarian hordes of Brolia, and the hidden lands of >Charg aren't what I'd call gone from Peloria. (Not to mention the >Storm tribes of Pent the Lunars are yet (1621) unaware of.) No, no, Joerg. You missed the implications of my statement -- the Lunar Empire believes that once Whitewall falls and Orlanthi is proven crushed, that the other traces of Orlanthi in Peloria and environs will DISAPPEAR! (It may take a few years, but it's inevitable.) Invisible Orlanthi will collapse, the barbarians in Brolia etc. will switch to other cults, and when Charg is revealed it won't have Orlanthi. And of course, they don't know about the Storm tribes of Pent. See? Whitewall's fall is a huge victory! Nyuk nyuk nyuk. >Hey, I said most Hendriki were Aeolians, not all of Heortland. I was joking. >> The Ralian and Wenelian Orlanthi are exceedingly crude and >>primitive compared to them. They don't have cities, they don't >>have >walled towns. >Not true for Otkorion (another case of advanced Orlanthi bordering >on Malkionism, but sporting a Great Temple to Orlanth in one city >and an Archbishop in the next one). Otkorion is the capital of the Henotheist church. Hardly an Orlanthi stronghold. The Orlanthi in Heortland and Sartar are, in fact, highly developed Orlanthi. The Orlanthi in Otkorion are not -- but rather are folks in the process of transition _away_ from "true" Orlanthi ways. Lankst is probably the most advanced of the Orlanthi areas in Ralios, but it is crude and uncivilized next to Sartar. In attacking Bolongo: >I have little trouble with an obscure deity as a Runic source - look >at Mastakos, Hykim, or Uleria, neither of whom has a major cult >(structure). Mastakos was just as imaginary as Bolongo. It's hardly my fault that Bolongo hasn't managed to attract a convincing mythology yet -- no doubt because he's from Pamaltela. Bolongo irritates you _because_ he's disorderly. He doesn't fit into the neat scheme of things. ;) >What are the Pamaltelan prophecies for the Hero Wars? One belief is tied in with the Monomyth version of the Gods War. First Rashoran came, the harbinger of Chaos. Then Ragnaglar came, who changed the laws of the universe. Then Wakboth came, and destroyed the universe. The belief is that in the World-Since-Time, the same thing is re-occurring. First Rashoran came -- Gbaji the Deceiver in the First Age. In the Second Age, the forces of Disorder -- the God Learners and Six-Legged Empire, who tried to change the laws of the Universe to make Something New. The belief is that the Third Age will produce Wakboth, who will destroy the universe. >This corpse [in the Krjalki Bog] is definitely _not_ Genert, because >Genert dismembered himself and fed himself to Hyena. But Genert has been being reassembled for centuries, Genert. That's what the corpse is in the Krjalki Bog -- the pieces that have been gathered since Time Began in an attempt to resuscitate Genert. Nick Brooke >I'm not sure exile would be as common in Loskalmi justice as you >suggested, if only because for the century of the Ban there was no >point in trying to exile anyone: they couldn't go anywhere! Maybe >this was meant as a form of capital punishment after all: "Go on! >Into the swirling grey fog with you!" That's what I think. No doubt the swirling gray fog was an excellent conscience salve to those who didn't like "executing" criminals. Just pop 'em into the fog, and who knows what happened to them? Maybe something good! Maybe now that the fog's gone, the exile solution is starting to have problems -- folks who are kicked out no longer vanish into oblivion. Instead, they form small hostile communities, and cause trouble among the neighbors.