From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 14 Jun 1994, part 6
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
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From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: RQ
Message-ID: <9406131645.AA05610@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 13 Jun 94 04:45:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4550
Nils, the pro-Sweden simp, claims:
>As for wars we have been fortunate enough to stay out of war this
>century and the last.
I thought you had your share of wars in the 19th century. You
got into the biggest fight of 'em all -- the Napoleonic Wars -- had a
Napoleonic marshall (Bernadotte) for your king, and I seem to vaguely
remember an 1860s conflict over Schleswig-Holstein, though this
latter may have been Denmark only, with no Swedish involvement.
Klaus?
Kevin Rose states:
>I seem to remember Greg wrote a fairly long article dealing with DI
>in wyrm fotnotes way back when. I don't have the article handy, but
>the relavant gist was that you could DI out of an other gods temple,
>but not into another gods temple. (I think it was a "Rune Fix"
>article.)
The Rune Fix articles weren't by Greg. All I can say is that
to my perfect knowledge Greg played in his campaign (as did Steve
Perrin and myself) that you couldn't use DI to get out of an enemy
temple's holy ground.
Regardless of what Greg and I do, however, clearly every GM
must make a decision for himself how far-reaching he wants DI to be.
I feel it is important to have limits on DI. How could you possibly
ever capture a Rune lord otherwise? I not only play that you can't DI
out of a god's temple, you can't DI into anyone elses, because that
would be an offensive use of a DI, and that violates the Compromise.
I try to have the DI's fit the god. When my Storm Bull
player DI's, his wounds all heal instantly, and he goes into a
Berserk rage. If he'd been an Orlanthi, something else would have
happened (probably everyone in the party getting their wounds healed,
but no Berserk rage). Of course, his DI's to date have been during a
battle, in which the rage was appropriate and needed. Luckily, both
times, the player went into the rage utterly convinced he was about
to die, and completely heedless of his characters' personal safety.
In fact, at the end of the first battle, when the bad guys were all
beaten, he keeled over, and announced that his character was dead,
"Right, Sandy?" He was highly surprised and gratified when I told him
he was still alive. He had the Right Attitude, tho, IMO.
(That was Guy Hoyle, BTW, an occasional contributor.)
PMichaels mentioned:
>Greg talked some about Humakt. He said that to be a good Humakti
>you've got to kill things and you've got to be willing to die. He
>said that order and justice are "not such a big thing for Humakt,"
I've heard Greg talk on Humakti on many an occasion. What all
right-thinking Humakti must remember is that Greg is an anti-Humakti.
He dislikes the fellows, and has often called them "assholes" in my
hearing. He secretly cackles over the fact that Humakti can't
resurrect. I think his distaste stems from the fact that in early RQ
campaigns, many rules exploiters/minimaxers/all-round jerks played
Humakt. I think I mentioned in this Digest about the early battle in
which a band of Chaosium PCs met a Chimera. They killed the damn
thing with FAILED Sever Spirits (each one costing the Chimera 1d6
CON). I think it took 17 Sever Spirits to do the monster in. Consider
what the party make-up must have been like, to even consider such a
means of destruction.
Now, this doesn't mean that Greg's not right about Humakt's
interests, but let's not forget the evidence that Humakt is not Just
a death god. He slew the Well of Death, restoring life to the world
again. He cut himself off from Orlanth -- clearly a sign of offended
honor. He inflicts geases on his followers -- constraints on
behavior.
Dave Dunham;
>By corn, you mean maize (this is an international digest)?
Hokay, international dudes. What does "Corn" mean to you. I
know it can refer to any grain kernel, but what does it "normally"
mean?
ECLIPSES in Glorantha
The only Eclipse I know about that ever happened in Glorantha
was at the Sunstop. I have some vague half-memory about an
Eclipse-like occurrence at the Rising or the Birth of the Red Moon,
but can't confirm without my books. I don't think the Wagon, or
Tolat, or the Jugger ever cause eclipses in the classic sense.
Presumably if you lived in the right place, the Red Moon
could cause an eclipse.
Alex
>Sandy, would you care to handwave more specifically about
>the height and size of the Red Moon than you've done to date?
I have absolutely no idea how high the Red Moon is in the
sky. Lower than the Sky Dome that's all I know.
I (Sandy) said:
>>I don't know how long bison live.
Oh yes, I do. A long-lived bison can survive as long as 33
years. (I looked it up.)
Kevin Rose:
>Maybe I'm confused here, but if the sun fell out of the sky how did
>it get back there from the ocean? Particularly if the ocean is
>still burning?
It took a Lightbringers' Quest to restore the Sun. The ocean
is still burning because it caught on fire and won't go out.
>Also, didn't you lose the Gloranthan Grimore many years ago to an
>HDA crash?
Yes. The Gloranthan Grimoire was a collection of interesting
ways to misuse spirit magic, sorcery, and Rune magic, utilizing and
exploiting the RQ III rules to the detriment of your enemies and your
gamemasters' plans. It also had information and tactics on, for
instance, how to best use a shaman vs. a sorcerer.
---------------------
From: vladt@interaccess.com (Kevin Rose)
Subject: rq sorcerers
Message-ID:
Date: 13 Jun 94 05:56:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4551
Alex: (When is a sorcerer a sorcerer?)
The Chaosiom definition from a couple of years ago was that you
were a "Sorcerer" for initiation purposes if you knew any manipulation
skills other than intensity. This was from Charlie Krank and Sandy
Peterson.
Kevin Rose
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From: jclannom@mathlab.mtu.edu (Joe Lannom)
Subject: Hangin' 8 in the godplane
Message-ID: <9406131648.AA17511@mathlab.mtu.edu>
Date: 13 Jun 94 16:48:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4552
Alex scribed:
|> > Since she's in the center of the web, the root of it, and most
|> > heroquests would probably occur towards the outer/middle areas
|>
|> I'm not so sure the outside is safe, either; here, the risk would
|> be Chaos/the Void/the Silence/whatever your favourite
|> pre-existance with its built-in horrors is.
Well yeah, those dangers exist, they're always in there. Each path
has its own unique compliment of figures and architypes to deal
with.
The plane/web is Arachne's element. What I was hinting at is that
she's much more dangerous than anything else you would bump into
there. Able to leap from myth to myth in a single bound, able to
stop mighty heros with a single strand. Fighting for magic,
mastery, and the gloranthan way... *cough cough* sorry.
Here's a thought: She receives no worship on Glorantha's mundane
plane, but what about worship on the hero plane? Those that follow
her cult on the plane might have the ability to avoid her presence,
or even get closer to the center the of the web without getting
caught.
Hmm... a DI to her on the hero plane might get you a temporary
linkage to a different strand... out of the fire, into the frying
pan, so to speak, or placed back at the beginning of the path.
As for retribution, if you mess with the mythic plane too much while
a worshipper of Arachne, hero quests can happen at the oddest times.
ex: "Orlanth once had porridge for breakfast before going out and
killing a very nasty chaos beast..." imagine opening the door one
morning and walking outside into unfamiliar territory... or suddenly
a bunch of your uncles show up, grab you and a few relatives
(closest things to brothers if you've got 'em) and drag you off to
"become one of the guys"...
Of course, trying to worship her might just get her attention
quicker. *shrug* Maybe she doesn't want worship.. just a snack.
joe "and what kind of spider might she be" lannom
I say a cross between a jumping spider and a black widow with an
infinity rune on her belly.
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From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: The Fall of Orlanth
Message-ID: <9406132101.AA10883@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 13 Jun 94 11:01:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4554
Why do the Lunars state that the fall of Whitewall is the fall of Orlanth?
Specifically, why do they make this statement in light of Ralios, etc.?
A few answers:
Orlanth actually does live in Whitewall much as Kygor Litor lives in the
mountains north of Prax or Eiritha lives in the Eiritha hills. It is the
Axis Mundi of the Orlanth cult and it is the "navel" of the "Orlanth
umbilical" so to speak. When Whitewall falls, Orlanth is "imprisoned" in
the sense that his primary connection to the mundane world has been effectively
isolated from his followers. He may have other, lesser connections elsewhere.
Thus, Orlanth has been "imprisoned" OUT of the world (as opposed to
"imprisoned" WITHIN a containment). The fact that most Orlanth cult functions
still seem to work after this may be due to the connections present from
each initiate/priest/etc. to Orlanth. However, the "vital trunk link" that
allows Orlanth's "secret power" to flow to the world has been severed. Thus,
the cult of Orlanth could wither and die within a few generations, given enough
political pressure against it. That ineffable something which inspired young
men and women to fight and die for Orlanth, regardless of cost, has been, at
least temporarily, cut off at the source with the capture of Whitewall.
Another possibility might be that the Lunars are just using an important
political victory for propaganda purposes--claiming that Orlanth was defeated
and imprisoned in order to break the morale of those clinging to his cult.
And it could be that the Lunars really have no idea that Orlanth is worshipped
in Ralios and points distant. They may know that "a storm god" is worshipped
there, but little else.
---------------------
From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: The Sartar Stuff
Message-ID: <9406132107.AA10940@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 13 Jun 94 11:07:39 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4555
If you don't want to post a great honking amount of stuff on Sartar to the
daily, you could always upload it to the archive (soda.berkeley.edu).
---------------------
From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: Vinga and Sartarite beverages
Message-ID: <9406132136.AA11244@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 13 Jun 94 11:36:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4556
I'm currently running a campaign that has a Vingan PC. I'm running the cult
to be pretty much identical to Orlanth Adventurous in the rules particulars.
Vinga's major myth is summarized thus:
Vinga is the sister or daughter of Orlanth (depending on the part of the
world you're in). Unlike her other female relatives, she felt no love for
cooking, child-rearing, or other typical womanly things. Thus, she declared
that she was to be considered part of Orlanth's war circle. Orlanth laughed
at her and she left, vowing to make him eat his laughter.
Along the way, she encountered Eurmal, who tried to seduce her. Vinga turned
the tables on Eurmal and "caught him by the short hairs". She then made
Eurmal show her the secret that he had shown to her brother/father Orlanth.
To make sure that he would make good on his promise, Vinga castrated Eurmal
and held his "bits 'n pieces" as collateral.
Eurmal sneaked into Orlanth's circle and replaced Death with a copy. Then
Vinga took Death from Eurmal and tossed his genitals into a bramble. She then
went to find the Emperor, who had many times humiliated Orlanth. If she could
humble Yelm, then Orlanth would have to accept her into his circle of war.
Unfortunately, she was on hand just in time to see Orlanth slay Yelm with his
copy of Death.
In frustration, she cast Death away, and Eurmal picked it up. Not one to
avoid an apportunity for mischief, he left a copy in its place.
Later, Vinga went looking for death and found Eurmal's copy, which she strapped
to her side.
During the Storm Age, Vinga had many adventures, but each time she took her
trophies to Orlanth, he patted her upon the head and told her that, while she
was very good, the war circle was not her place.
This happened until the Hill of Gold, when Elmal stood to defend himself
against Zorak Zoran and his minions. Elmal was almost defeated, even with
the flaming spear that Orlanth had given him, until Vinga leaped into the fray
at his side. The two fought like brothers against the darkness monster and
drove it off. In the fight, Vinga's magnificent brown hair, the color of
the most fertile earth, was devoured by Zorak Zoran, and she was made
completely bald. The entire top of her head bore the scars of the troll's
teeth. Elmal bid Vinga to sit with him as his most honored warrior, and this
is where she was when Orlanth returned from the Lightbringers' Quest.
When he asked his thane how this could be, Orlanth was told of Vinga's courage
and sacrifice. He looked upon his sister/daughter and was ashamed. Her
beauty had been devoured by darkness. What man would marry her. Then he
saw her eyes and was shamed even more, for no sadness marred her face. She
blazed with glory and joy at her status of warrior and hero. Then he knew
that the War Circle was Vinga's place, not the hearth.
Orlanth called Vinga to his side and placed her upon the war circle. As token
of her defense of Elmal, he gifted her with a fine head of red hair--the color
of the fire she had defended.
Thus, Vinga sits among the warriors, not the wives.
Areas with Yelmali tell the story a little differently. In their versions,
Vinga does not fight alongside Yelmalio, but charges into battle after
Yelmalio has been defeated and drives Zorak Zoran off with her fierceness.
Yelmalions themselves tell a different story. They maintain that Vinga stood
by idly and watched Yelmalio suffer. Then, when Zorak Zoran left, she
sneaked to the weakened god and tried to use her "wicked wiles" to steal the
last remnants of his guttering fire powers. Yelmalio, in his bewildered state,
succumbed to what he thought were ministrations. But all that was left was
enough to color Vinga's hair red--the mark of her wanton-ness. Vinga then
ran off to find other prey.
This cult's major function is to give a place to women who prefer to walk
the warrior's path. Requirements to join are identical to Orlanth Adventurous,
except that the applicant must be a woman and must dye her hair red if it
is not already so. Vingan Wind Lords are called "Red Women" by many people.
Among the Orlanthi, Vinga has a reputation as a lusty, strong-willed goddess,
who knows what she wants and goes out to get it. Most stories involving her
revolve around the attempts of various gods to seduce, induce, or woo her
to marriage, and her many ways of outwitting them. She is seen as witty,
a master of weapons, and quite the flirt. However, she is also portrayed as
a steadfast warrior and champion of the weak. Vinga's cult stresses the use
of wit as well as weaponry, and there are many stories involving Vinga and
Eurmal (usual progression: Eurmal tries something on Vinga. Vinga sees
through the trick. Eurmal's trick backfires.)
Vingans are not forbidden to marry, but it is unusual for one to do so.
It is common for women widowed by violence to become Vingans as well, since
Vinga does have some avenging function. However, Vinga is still within the
circle of society, so her cultists do not become the scary, single-minded
avengers of Babeester Gor. Furthermore, it is possible to change from
worship of Vinga to worship of Ernalda (although it would be pretty strange).
A good example of how a Vingan could be expected to behave would be Griselda.
Elmali are especially friendly to Vingans, and it is not unheard of for an
Elmali warrior to take a Vingan wife or for an Elmali to actually encourage
one or more of his daughters to become Vingans.
Vinga considers Elmal to be very close, as well, for he was the first to
accept her as she wished to be.
Yelmalions, on the other hand, don't like Vingans much at all, and see them
as wanton, and generally of loose morals.
Vinga considers Yelmalio to be a whining little boy, who is just too jealous
to admit that he was saved in combat by a woman.
Yelorna and Vinga get along about as well as acid and base. Vinga sees
Yelorna as an "uptight little priss" and Yelorna sees Vinga as a "dyed-hair
tramp".
The above are just a few notes.
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: That ole rascal Nick
Message-ID:
Date: 14 Jun 94 00:23:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4557
Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 4504
Nils Weinander:
>> I began thinking about Kralorela, Teshnos and the East Isles before GRoY
>> came out, so I haven't really tried integrating its stuff.
> Good. Don't bother. Nobody in Glorantha ever has.
Wrong. The Lunar committee for mission of the east, whose executive members
accompany the Redhead tribe through Pent, amost certainly have.
> The Glorious Reascent's account of Dara Happan myth is non-God Learned (it
> pre-dates the God Learners) and was never assimilated into the monomyth, as
> the God Learners never got to Peloria (cf. the Secrets Book appendix: "The
> Pelorian mystical geography was almost virgin territory since the area was
> never actively part of the God Learner's conspiracy"). So it hasn't been
> shoehorned/pruned into the Monomyth. Only latterday God Learners like Joerg
> attempt to do so: their incompetence is proved by their existence. ;-)
Another word for latterday God Learners is Lunars, and yet another one
is Loskalmi. _I_ live in Godtime, as far as Gloranthan time is concerned.
> So we have two non-standard mythologies -- "almost virgin" Dara Happan pre-
> God Learner tales, and schismatic non-monomythised Kralori False Draconism
> (if the latter had any lasting effects, which is hard to prove one way or
> the other). Why on Glorantha should the two be compatible/comparable? (A
> rhetorical question, if your answer is "Because the gods speak Tradetalk").
They are two specimen of development (i.e. degeneration) of the Solar
Empire of the Golden Age. Fonrit is another one. They have the early
elements in common. Why not some of the later developments? But I admit
that after Daruda parallels would be unexpected.
> Just my opinion, of course.
And everything Nick says is a Eurmali trick, remember?
> Gods of the Wenelians
Me:
>> What happened to Entru and Entruli? The Entruli people?
> Through speculating about Esrolian origins, I came to theorise that Entru
> and Genert are similar figures (N-T-R; N-R-T; anyone who has tried to read
> books on hieroglyphic decipherment will follow this!).
Entru is the earth king, ok. But in the following he sounds more like
Granddad Mortal:
> Entru is the First
> Man, as Esrola/Asrelia is the First Woman. The First Man runs around wild
> in the forest and ruts with animals; this is the origin of the Entruli:
> barbarians. The First Woman mates with serpents, or ears of corn, or other
> things (I've only seen the Puppeteer Troupe's comic version of this, as the
> Esrolite women won't let men into their temple), and her children, male and
> female, are the Esrolites: civilised folk.
Sounds a bit like Kralorela's Wild Man myth.
> This is of course an Esrolite myth, explaining why all the people of the
> Manirian forest think they're different animals, but intermarry anyway. It
> also allows them to feel superior: foreign men (and women) are barbarian
> animals, but our women (and men) are civilised people.
Aren't the Esrolites the result of the mating between the Earth King
and the Great Mother in their incarnations as First Man and First Woman?
Or is Kethaa yet another goddess of the land, unconnected to Esrola?
> "Entruli" would be the former name of the people who followed Wendel and
> became the Wenelians. And "Entru" would be a figure in Esrolite myth, not
> Wenelian. (More on him one of these months).
Then Entru would be the Esrolite name for Wendel?
>> King Lalmor and the Vathmai tribe which settled Slontos?
> Happened in Slontos. They passed through 1500 years ago. What kind of trace
> are you expecting to find?
In Heortland, the Hendriki rebels (which started maybe 200 years later)
still give their ame to the ruling tribe. The tribe name might have
survived. The king won't.
>> How did the God Learner occupation of Slontos change the Wenelians?
> Happened in Slontos. They thought we were barbarians. They were right. Not
> rich, powerful or sophisticated enough to be worth tampering with.
Just the right stuff to prove a theory or two. Where was it the Goddess
Switch occured?
>> Why the Sow Mother, and not (male) Mralot? Or are both worshipped?
> They're the same person, Joerg: Hsunchen androgyny.
As in Hykim=Mikyh? You're the first to spell this out.
I androgyni is a Hsunchen trait, how do the Hsunchen stand to Androgeus?
> But in Wenelia we have
> the Boar Totem clan, who fulfill much the same role as Storm Bulls in the
> rest of the Barbarian Belt. The Boar is the defender of the forest against
> anything unnatural (agriculture is unnatural to the Wenelians); he berserks
> in battle, and can be calmed or commanded by the Oak Woman. So Sow Mother
> is included as a general deity, and not a clan bloodline. Perhaps something
> similar happens with the Stag Clan and the ancestress of hunted deer?
I prefer a version where all the aspects of pig, deer or whatever-hood are
split into several distinct spirits one can worship (or not), and who
together make up the whole thing. Parallel to the elemental forces...
> Of course, this makes the Esrolite "Entru" myth rather suspect if Wenelians
> claim their male ancestor was the Boar, Stag, Lion, Fox or whatever...
Hsunchen androgyny?
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de