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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 15 Jun 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: the Hrestoli
Message-ID: <9406141854.AA18152@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 14 Jun 94 18:54:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4576
Me:
> > Squire, hrm? Guess whose son gets _that_ job.
David Cake:
> Actually, according to the rules, squires, acolythists, etc. are the big
> LOSERS of the system, because they are officially farmer caste, and never
> develop their skills at farming, so can never leave it.
This may be true for some squires, and/or, in some areas. Lifetime
professional squires certainly occurred in mediaeval Europe.
> How does a squire become a knight? Anyone want to speculate? This is
> a pretty important question for Hrestoli society.
I'm skeptical that the "rules" for next-class candidateture are strictly
enforced, at least in most places. For, e.g., a squire, proficiency in
two of the relevant skills of the profession may be consider acceptable.
Say, one or more of their Crafts, Human Lore, First Aid... Obviously,
hardcore Hrestoli think this is a fudge, warn sternly of Loss of Solace,
etc.
> Absolutely. I am of the opinion that when you become a knight, you take
> service (either with a particular noble, or an institution such as a knightly
> order), and must rise up through the ranks of that institution to attain a
> full noble ranking position.
I think this varies. Some may be knighted late in life, have little martial
aptitude, as Sandy suggests. They'd be content to remain as effectively
"important Farmers". Compare with the late mediaeval system of inherited
land held by "squires", or even modern (effectively) honorary knighthood.
> There are several very big questions about Hrestoli society left
> unanswered. The most important one is what degree of separation of Church and
> state is there? The answer is quite possibly none. Are the two hierarchies
> separate, or intertwined?
In Loskalm intertwined, though not quite amorphous, I'd imagine. Clearly
the person who takes Clayday morning service isn't generally the same guy
lancing down the heathens in the Kingdom of War, but it's more like being
in different department of the civil service, than it is a Path in Life
thing.
> I would like to produce a write up of the Hrestoli soon (anyone
> interested let me know), and questions like this are making it very difficult.
Me <-- interested.
> We have a standing joke in my RQ game about Mountain Cooties
> (presumably related to the Sidehill Gouger), and meeting the broo that is
> a descendent of them. There have been several broos appear with one leg
> large then the other, but so far none of them have appeared favouring steep
> slopes.
> Note that the evolution of such creatures is complicated by the fact
> that clockwise and anti-clockwise strains develop, that can only mate under
> very unusual circumstances, for purely physical reasons.
Surely they just do it doggy-style with each other, and Make the Beast
with Two Backs with the opposite strain? Mind you, in Broo society, I
suspect the latter is considered Perverted.
Graeme Lindsell:
> Alex writes
> >I think the above account of Hrestoli idealism may be somewhat, well,
> >idealised.
> Very possibly. Hard to believe it isn't, really. But if we accept what's
> written.
I think what's in G:G2, though it may be a slanted account, is true. I'm
sure the GoG "cult rules" are, at the very least, a generalisation (as they
are for most cults).
> Has tolerance always been an official part of Christian teachings?
Well, the Parable of the Good Samaritan is puted to be about as early
as one gets. Doesn't mean it's always been paid much heed to, or that
there aren't contradictory ones: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live".
(In turn also contradicting a Commandment.)
> I would suspect it might be for the Hrestoli but not the Rokari: if you're
> born into your caste and stay there forever then those born as initiates
> of the false gods are doomed to stay that way. The Hrestoli may accept the
> possibility (nay, necessity!) of conversion.
This seems likely, all round. I suppose a forward-thinking Rokari might
consider "kill the nobles, convert the peasants" to be reasonable. Only
rank heretics would consider, say, allowing a weaponthane to become a
knight.
> >> Of course, as long as they are fighting
> >> the Kingdom of War no one needs to worry...
> >Apart from the poor bastards in the middle, of course.
> Until Loskalm smashes the Kingdom of War and then keep going. Nothing like
> outnumbering an enemy 10-to-1, being better organised and more advanced
> technically and magically to give you an edge in a war...
And indeed, the situation is Nothing Like the above. The Loskalmi army
numbers 55,000, while there are 85,000 Warriors in the KoW. We don't
know a lot about the organisation of the latter, but the Warlords have a
similar level of technology, and make ruthless use of whatever kind of
magic comes to hand, certainly including sorcery, as testified to by the
number of Tapped natives. I'd not snear at Zorak Zoran, Humakt, Polaris,
Wachaza, Urox, and Cacodemon either, to name but a few.
> >I've no particular axe to grind about which Malkioni are really "bad guys",
> >and which are goodies,
> My complaint started because it was suggested that the last group which I
> could have made a bit more tolerant of foreign beliefs - the Salfestrans -
> should be evil oppressive types.
It's rather in the nature of monotheistic religions to get huffy towards
conflicting beliefs. The henotheists won't have this problem, but whether
they are Great Guys or not is another question. I'm confident there are
at least _some_ Great Guy henotheists, and Loskalmi, and even the
occassional Rokari, though.
> But possibly Hrestol actually wrote that stuff himself, rather than it
> being reported by others? Of course, that doesn't stop later Saints
> interpreting what he wrote...
If they were (as I suggested) the _sayings_ of Hrestol, they'd be a near-
contempory account, but not acyually penned by The Man Himself. (A la
the Islamic the Sayings of the Prophet). This wouldn't mean that they
are spurious, but would tend to concretrate on general cheerleading, and
the issues of the day, without being broadsides against other forms of
worship, like the locally defunct Brithini, or the non-existant Rokari.
> As for the status of women, none are mentioned in the Loskalm write-up.
> The only data on Western women refers to Seshnela and the Brithini. I've
> heard a second hand report from Greg that Loskalmi women can't fully
> participate in the Hrestoli religion, but I can't remember who told me,
> or how long ago it was.
Sounds right to me. I'm sure they have a hatful of way "meritocratic"
ideals don't apply to women. "Unsuited for the brutal arts of war."
"Could not properly act as Vicar of Hrestol." "Malkion's Laws make it
improper for a women to have dominion over a man."
> >Suggestions are invited for what the alternate female class-justifications
> >would be for.
> Goodwife, Healer, Enchantress and Lady, IMO. The main difference is that
> Western women are trained as doctors instead of fighters.
> >After all, technically the wife has no class of her own.
> No, she's a member of the class "women", who have different rights and
> duties to the four male classes. It's possible therefore that men from
> any class could marry a women of any birth without stigma (though I doubt
> it works that way in practice).
You're not kidding. Unless variance from the Ideal is pretty rife, or
that the class progression criteria for women is Have a Successful Hubby,
I find this hard to see. Otherwise, an inevitable consequence seems to
be that some low-class men will end up married to high-class women. In
the light that class=worth to the Hrestoli, this sounds very unlikely.
Let's face it, modern (Earthly) western men get angina and ulcers just
thinking about the idea of their wives being more successful than them,
how is a barely-culturally-post-Dark-Ages lot like the Loskalmi going to
take it?
Is it reasonable the Hrestoli have one one female class? Bear in mind
they are the "original" (surviving, at least) heresy from Brithinism, so
that they'd retain features of it is creditable. The later arising
Rokari may then have "improved" on it by putting women into classes, and
it doesn't cast up major problems with them.
Mark S. c/o Tom Yates:
> Land Ownership: My Loskalm is more Brithini than feudal.
> Farmers, Knights and Wizards work under the direction of Lords.
> Only Lords may "own" property; [...]
This seem Correct to me: why would Hrestoli grant hereditory rights, such
as ownership or tenancy of land, without requiring that it be Earned in some
way? Sandy's The Farmers are Part of the Land idea seems more appealing in
a Brithini or Rokari setting.
> Is Loskalm bent on crusading world conquest?: No AND yes.
> [...] Why should a nation of three million
> people have one view on any subject?
I don't think the Loskalmi have megalomanic schemes of World Domination,
but there's the Clear and Present Danger of the Kingdom of war. Then
there'll be Jonetela. Then there will be Charg, and/or the Lunar Empire...
> Shameless plugs: Most of my 'zine Pen and Sword ( in Pete
> Maranci's APA Interregnum) is background material from my
> Fronelan campaign.
Details! Details!
Sandy:
> I'm sure that a Squire is required to take a
> sabbatical every so often to polish up his Craft skill or whatever so
> that he can become a Knight that much sooner.
I'm sure this is so, if only for form's sake. I suspect it might get to
Marie Antionette playing milkmaid proportions in extreme cases, though.
> I also suspect that there are two types of Squires in
> Hrestoli society: sons of Lords, Knights, and Wizards, who are simply
> marking time while they work on qualifying for higher rank, and the
> other, perhaps more common variety, which is simply a rich Farmer who
> has taken upon him some of the responsibilities of the upper ranks
> without actually qualifying for the job.
Plus a third, the life-long faithful retainer of some knightly type.
I'm not sure this second kind should be too common, the analogous English
Squires being a very late, and somewhat "degenerate" feudal phenomenon,
and the people in question actually being hereditory land-holders.
> I don't think the Hrestoli are aware that there _can_ be a
> difference between the State and the Church. Their entire social
> structure is built upon their religious beliefs. I think that it is
> possible, even likely, that they have no church "hierarchy", no
> priests, whatsoever. At their ceremonies, the local Knight or Squire
> officiates.
I disagree with this: I'm sure they'd still see it as a breach of class
restrictions for someone below Wizard to actually perform their rites.
Even the Knight-class "junior clerics" observe this restriction by only
assisting the same.
> In other words, I agree that the Hrestoli hate the Jonatings
> more than the Orlanthi or Rathori.
Absolutely. These Weird Barbarians talk such nonsense they're pretty
harmless; they don't know enough about the Invisible God to say something
blasphemous about him. Peasants don't understand a word of what they say,
unlike those evil Jonatelan heretics we have to execute every so often when
they blandish our good folk with their talk of honour to all men, whatever
his place.
> I'm not sure if their opinion
> vis-a-vis the Rokari is the dire hatred of the Roman Catholic for the
> Lutheran, or the relatively mild distaste of the Greek Orthodox for
> the Roman Catholic.
Something more like the first, I think. We're not talking about the
odd "filoque" here or there.
Alex.
---------------------
From: DevinC@aol.com
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 14 Jun 1994, part 6
Message-ID: <9406140430.tn1167269@aol.com>
Date: 14 Jun 94 08:30:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4564
Devin Cutler here:
Jacobus writes:
"If you don't want to post a great honking amount of stuff on Sartar to the
daily, you could always upload it to the archive (soda.berkeley.edu)."
To whom are you directing this message?
Jacobus also gives some info on Vinga.
I like the background, although I would be interested to hear who her mother
was. What I do not like is the idea that Vinga is merely a copy of Orlanth. I
would like to see a similar structure, but maybe with some different spirit
magic in order to emphasize her use of cleverness. Also, I think she should
have her own Rune Magic (such as the Wind Movement one given here earlier).
Martin Crim gives us notes on Cam's Well. Thanks, great piece! A few more
like Moonbroth and Cam's Well and we'll have PraxPak!
Regards,
Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com
---------------------
From: appel@erzo.berkeley.edu (Shannon Appel)
Subject: RQ-Con 2 Update #1
Message-ID: <199406140708.AAA18744@erzo.berkeley.edu>
Date: 13 Jun 94 17:08:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4565
Work on RQ-Con 2 has continued in the last two months. Here's a
general update on the current status of things.
** GENERAL INFO
As noted before, the Convention is going to be held January 13-16 in
the San Francisco Bay Area. We've chosen the San Francisco Clarion
Hotel for the Convention. It's in Millbrae, California, just a bit
south of SF.
Sandy Petersen has been officially added to our Guests of Honor list,
which at this point also includes all four RQ2 authors as well as Greg
Stafford.
Wizards of the Coast has let us know that Ars Magica will be the
spotlighted game that they are presenting on January 15. Jonathan
Tweet, the co-author of Ars Magica and current editor of the Ars
Magica line will be in attendance.
** SPECIAL EVENTS
A number of old events will return for RQ-Con 2, many of them with new
and interesting twists.
Trollball this year will be held in balmy Dagori Inkarth, rather than
on Valind's Glacier. It will be open to all Uz, not just Uzhim.
Geo's will be hosting a look at the dishes of the Lunar upper class.
Please bring a Pelorian delicacy, and the recipe (both Gloranthan and
Terran). Entries should fit into the categories of Snack, Drink,
Salad, Main Dish or Dessert. Braised Alticamelus tongue in ginger
sauce, over a bed of saffron maize and bloodbeans? At this point, do
not plan on cooking facilities other than those you bring yourselves.
Orlanthi Storytelling this year is titled Trickster's Night Out.
Please bring stories (not more than 10 minutes in length) about
Eurmal, Bolongo, Ratslaff or some other Trickster figure from
Gloranthan Myth. Our panel of Gloranthan sages will judge the contest
based on mythic substance and humor.
The game auction this year will feature all our Spotlighted games.
This is your chance to pick up rare and prized items. Runequest and
other Chaosium products, Skyrealms of Jorune and Ars Magica products
are sought for the auction.
We will have our information auction again, where you can ask Greg (or
our other guests) any question and receive an answer. Our guests
reserve the right to return your money if they can not or will not
answer your question.
This year we will introduce some new contests and displays:
Gloranthan Introductions is a game of pure role-playing. Present
yourself or another in the style of one of the Gloranthan cultures:
Orlanthi boasting, Lunar bureaucracy, Praxian geneaology, etc.
Introductions should be kept under two minutes.
A Gloranthan Costume Parade is scheduled, as is a Display of Battle
Standards and Banners of Glorantha. A brief description of the object
and its history should be provided. As this is the first year of this
event, we do not plan on making it a competition. All are welcome to
enter; winners only receive the admiration of the audience. Please
note that we do not want to have twenty copies of the Banner of the
Empire of Wyrm's Friends (the Chaosium symbol).
A display area will be provided to showcase your Gloranthan
Miniatures. A similar area for your Gloranthan Artwork will be
available. We do not plan on this being a competition. Entrants will
be asked to proivide some information about their entry. Again, the
only prize is admiration and envy!
Several private and company collections of our featured games will be
available for your perusal. These games will be available for viewing
throughout the day for the run of the convention.
** SEMINARS
We're still working on seminars for the con. Nothing is set in stone
yet, but we should have talks on cultures and religions of Gloranthan,
tips on gamemastering Glorantha and a discussion of Heroquesting for a
start. If you have ideas for other seminars that you'd like to see at
the Con, drop me a line.
** GAMES
People are still needed to run RuneQuest, Call of Cthulhu, Elric!,
Pendragon, Nephilim, Skyrealms of Jorune and Ars Magica games at
RQ-Con 2. If you'd be interested in running something, please drop me
a line. People running games will be given discounted admission to
the Con.
Shannon Appel
appel@erzo.berkeley.edu
(510) 649-7467
PS: If you're not already on the mailing list for RQ-Con 2 and would
like to be, send me mail.
---------------------
From: niwe@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander)
Subject: Once again, not a good title
Message-ID: <9406140934.AA13463@ppvku.ericsson.se>
Date: 14 Jun 94 13:34:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4566
Nils Weinander writing:
Harald Smith's story about Jannisor an the Gargoyle king:
great stuff! More of that kind please.
_____
Hal Mangold on my Kralorelan dragon names:
>I like these names, but I have one small problem with
>the name Tien Long. Knowing RQ player's and
>scholar's propensity for forging links between
>similarly name beings, is it really wise to name a
>dragon "Tien"? :) Especially considering the Kralori
>link to Atyar? Just a friendly suggestion.
Oops, I didn't think of that. I merely used the chinese word for
sky or celestial or whatever (one of the few chinese words I know,
long = dragon is another, the other ones are bogus). I'll have
to think of a better one for the Celestial Dragon.
As a sidenote, I started thinking about the sky gods as dragons
in order to make Kralorela more Gloranthan and less chinese. (Thus
my choice of names is totally inconsistent with my other views,
sigh...)
_____
Sandy on swedish history:
>Nils, the pro-Sweden simp, claims:
>>As for wars we have been fortunate enough to stay out of war this
>>century and the last.
> I thought you had your share of wars in the 19th century. You
>got into the biggest fight of 'em all -- the Napoleonic Wars -- had a
>Napoleonic marshall (Bernadotte) for your king, and I seem to vaguely
>remember an 1860s conflict over Schleswig-Holstein, though this
>latter may have been Denmark only, with no Swedish involvement.
Just to lay this utterly non-Gloranthan issue to rest: the last war
Sweden was involved in was 1809 when we lost Finland to the russians.
The swedish king Karl XIV Johan was indeed the french revolutionary
and napoleonic marshal Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte, but he kept Sweden
OUT of the napoleonic wars, wisely enough. The Schleswig-Holstein
affair must be danish-german (prussian?) because I have never heard
it mentioned in the context of swedish history. So for the greater
part of the 19th century and all of the 20th century this far we
have been spared the horrors of war. As a curious remainder of old
conflicts (I don't know the origin) though, Sweden has never made
official peace with San Marino...
_____
I haven't followed the Loskalm/Hrestoli debate closely, since I'm
not that interested in the west, but I'm stupid enough to jump
into the fray anyway. I definitely side with those who see Loskalm
as one of the few "good" nations. But, the hrestoli meritocracy
runs the risk of becoming the "tyranny of the successful", ie if
you are competent/competitive/ruthless enough you can go very
far, but there is no place for those who do not quite measure up
to the standards.
_____
/Nils W
---------------------
From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
Subject: Replies, Misc.
Message-ID: <940614080320243@thuemmel.com>
Date: 14 Jun 94 18:05:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4567
David Dunham in X-RQ-ID: 4402
>David Gadbois suggested
DG>>New Pelorian should break all the linguistic rules we
DG>>know of. [weird example deleted]
DD> Why? New Pelorians are humans. They should form languages in the way
Yes, but who says a human made up New Pelorian?
(Note: what follows is IMHO)
The core language was likely the Red Goddess herself, in her spare time.
Any mindbending quality the language has is due to her. The core of the
language may have been augmented by mortals, and these parts would work
normally. Thus most of the language would work nomally... but in a few
spots, it might be really strange and mystical to communicate truths
that 'normal' human languages cannot convey.
_______
Malcolm in X-RQ-ID: 4452
M> MOONBROTH
M> The buildings in the oasis are all made from wood frames and adobe
M> walls. The one and two story structures are built touching one
M> another, often sharing a common wall. Most streets run north to south
I had always imagined the Oasis dwellers as living in something
resembling Catal Huyuk. Or the houses of the Zuni? Indians in
Arizona. IE: no streets, all the 'houses are rooms in one big
building, and to get to your house you might have to climb a
ladder or two and walk across somebody's roof.
The reason why I'm arguing is that I dislike the presence of too many
societies that have individual houses for each family unit. This is a
little too redolant of the modern world, historically only a few
cultures have had this practice. In Glorantha, IMHO the west has this
as their structure, and maybe the Lunars (though other ideas come to
mind), but why the Oasis dwellers? Also including streets makes the
culture seem less alien, I would prefer some culture clash in
this ares with lunar ideas of organization.
M> Realizing that the oasis was both a living shrine to the Seven
M> Mothers, and a strategic location, the Lunars began the construction
I don't get this, could you explain their reasoning?
_______
Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 4475
S>THE LUNAR EMPIRE CUTS ITS THROAT
The artistry of this was too wonderful for mere words to express.
_______
Martin in X-RQ-ID: 4490
M> If people liked Malcolm's Moonbroth, I could post some of my
M> notes on Cam's Well.
I did, please do.
_______
Devin Cutler in X-RQ-ID: 4505
D> In any case, as far as I'm concerned, once I know that magic and
D> ghosts and gods exist, it is much easier for me as a Gloranthan to
D> accept the certainty of an afterlife than it is/was for Terrans.
I think you're suffering from overexposure to modern rational people.
Do you really think someone who was raised in Ancient Sumeria or as a
medieval peasant really reasoned like you do?
Cullen
---------------------
From: pyspas@midge.bath.ac.uk (Paul Snow)
Subject: Corn is ..
Message-ID:
Date: 14 Jun 94 14:45:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4568
English in England
Corn is what you use to make bread. Hence the fuss over the the Corn Laws
in the last century as the legislation would effect the cost of bread
for the working classes/ man in the street.
We have popcorn but it is made from maize (I suppose). Language is like
that. We have cans of fruit or beans but tinned music. We use yardsticks
in our work but no one owns one.