From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 16 Jun 1994, part 3 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172) Subject: misc Message-ID: <01HDKUAY0GAUQWWNCI@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU> Date: 15 Jun 94 11:46:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4608 Hello everyone-- - Nils, Sandy Thanks for the comments on the story--glad you liked it! - Sandy on the Tunnelled Hills It was great seeing something on this after hearing about it for years and I for one would love to see more. Do you have info on the Plain of Stones available? - Nick (x-rq-id 4581) I like the Orlando name. Does Orlanth Thunderous become Orlando Furioso? In regards to Androgeus, I always wondered after Dorastor came out if that is who Skanth and Skath are waiting for? And speaking of Androgeus, does anyone know where he/she is located during the period 1615-1625? --Harald --------------------- From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham) Subject: greenhouse; Ralian Orlanthi Message-ID: <199406152200.AA05786@radiomail.net> Date: 15 Jun 94 22:00:41 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4609 Colin Watson said >my wife's granny used to grow grapes and peaches in Orkney >(which is pretty far north); she used a greenhouse. I reckon a casting of >Bless Crops might do as good. I don't think so. Us Riskland settlers were hoping we'd get a bumper crop thanks to having an Ernalda acolyte at our stead. The spell description says only that you're guaranteed an average harvest. Sunripen might work more like a greenhouse, though the spell doesn't say so. I suspect there's a subcult of one of these deities with the Greenhouse spell. Nick said >BTW, as a name for "the Ralian form of Orlanth" >I've used "Orlando", which has several pleasant associations: berserking, >amorous insanity, chivalry, Ariosto, orange cats. While the associations are fine (but cats? I slogged through the Song of Roland and didn't see cats -- or are you talking Orlando Furioso, which I never finished?), somehow the name bothers me. We've been told that the Lightbringers have the same name wherever they're worshipped. Plus, almost all Orlanth worshippers speak a Theyalan language (and can at least recognize The Greeting). I know linguistically your idea makes sense, however. >The trad. Ralian form of elective confederate kingship looks significantly >different to the more hereditary type we see in Sartar, to my (optimistic) >eye. Orlanth Rex would be King of the Gods for different reasons in Ralios, >and far more easily ousted by dissent among his followers. Quick, exile that man before my housecarls attack a man I've granted hospitality to! Orlanth Rex can never be ousted. I persuaded the carls to elect me thane because it was clear to all that Markan the Ox no longer manifested Orlanth's virtues, the way I do. As long as I speak for Orlanth, Orlanth speaks through me. When I grow old, Orlanth will choose another to represent him. Oh, you mean the king of the Delelan Confederation? It's true that a member of the Voshfrei clan has held that position for generations. The king always travels with the members of his clan he thinks will make the best successor, so that everyone can get acquainted with them. It's always easier to vote for someone you've met more than once. I do find it hard to believe what I've heard of the "freedom-loving" Sartarites. What would happen if a king's son was unfit to rule, the way Dandern Markansson is? My Speaking Companion visited a distant land where the people raise horses and worship Yelm, and even they elected their leaders much as we do. They lived beyond an oppressive land that worships the Red Ball and limits rule to the sons of kings. --------------------- From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Subject: How to be a Hero in Ten Easy Lessons Message-ID: <9406152151.AA25248@sonata.cc.purdue.edu> Date: 15 Jun 94 11:51:43 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4610 I've been mulling over the whole "hero" thing, and something that's finally hit me with the difficulty had regarding "heroes" and RuneQuest is that the vast majority of thinking regarding how a character becomes a "hero" or at least of "heroic" skill and/or stature has been completely wrong-headed. This hit me when I was re-reading the Mahabbarata [sic]. I then immediately tore through my stories on Chuculainn [sic], the Arthurian matter, my Norse stuff, always looking for one thing: How did the mortal heroes BECOME heroes? You will note that the vast majority of hero stories completely ignore this little detail and tell of the exploits of heroes after they already were heroes. I came up with two, and only two methods: The hero was "born that way" (usualy a demigod unless in a Christian story then "fey" blood is often invoked) and evinced heroic behavior from early childhood or from infancy. The hero was trained by a masterful, legendary teacher--often the mythical "best teacher in the world". The former is true of Chuculainn, Lancelot, Gilgamesh, et al. It makes for very tough, macho heroes, The latter is true of Arjuna (and his enemies), Chuculainn (and his greatest foe), et al. It also makes for tough heroes, but they feel more human, because we can see the time when they were less heroic. This latter method is also MUCH better for most role-playing situations, since only permitting characters who were "favored by the stars" to become heroic can cheese some players off. Anyway, why am I bringing all this up? The reason is that RuneQuest is supposed to be a mythic game, and the myths give us the means by which heroes are made. They are NOT made by going out and beating the shit out of something. That is what they do when they already are heroes, or are getting some item or proof that they need to become heroes. They are not made into heroes by the act of combat. They are either born heroes or they are TRANSFORMED into heroes by specific "rites" of passage and education. Permit me the luxury of a very loose use of "rites" to include training by Yoda and his ilk, please. In fact, I could see a large chunk of a campaign working along the Star Wars model: 1: Luke proves that he is "hero material" by being a good pilot and willing to learn. 2: Luke studies under Yoda and has his new knowledge tested, the test also puts his own spirit on trial. 3: Luke is now of heroic caliber and begins to take his place among the movers and shakers of the mythic universe. I could see a campaign working somewhere along these possibilities, no? It would permit characters to gain immense skill and power from "beings of wisdom", but they must first "prove themselves worthy". Then, when they are full of their new power, but not truly masters, they find themselves tested sorely--they find all they had held steady to be unstable. If they pass this test, then they become truly heroes. Must get back to the lab, so I can't elaborate further. Just some ideas. --------------------- From: lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au (Graeme Lindsell) Subject: Loskalm vs the Kingdom of War Message-ID: <9406160119.AA06308@Sun.COM> Date: 16 Jun 94 15:58:18 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4611 Alex writes: >And indeed, the situation is Nothing Like the above. Obviously I disagree. >The Loskalmi army numbers 55,000, while there are 85,000 Warriors in the KoW. The Loskalmi standing peacetime army numbers 55,000 (and we're told it's one of the best in Glorantha). With a population of 3 200 000, plus whatever of the 800 000 inhabitants of Junora are supporting them, plus whatever they can recruit from Sog city (who will certainly ally with Loskalm rather than the KoW), they could lose that army and replace it immediately (there are many ex-soldiers in the higher bureuacracy to act as officers). The KoW, on the other hand, has no reserves at all. They're going to have to recruit from outside. They may get these recruits, as Jonatela is overrun by the Aldryami. Of course, Sandy has now repudiated all of these figures. I'll go on them as the only ones I've got, though. >We don't know a lot about the organisation of the latter, But we do know that Loskalm is one of the best organised nations on Glorantha. >but the Warlords have a similar level of technology, and make ruthless use >of whatever kind of magic comes to hand, certainly including sorcery, as >testified to by the number of Tapped natives. Which has the delighful effect of ruining them as recruits. As for magic, the Hrestoli are the guys who started the Syndics Ban, and are now robbing the Godplane for power. > I'd not snear at Zorak Zoran, Humakt, Polaris, Wachaza, Urox, and >Cacodemon either, to name but a few. But in war I'd support the homogeneous nation of militarist fanatics. In comparison the KoW are a bunch of thugs. As I've said, the KoW will be nasty enemies. But in a long war, Loskalm has all of the advantages. -- Graeme Lindsell a.k.a lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au Research School of Chemistry, Australian National University, Canberra. "I was 17 miles from Greybridge before I was caught by the school leopard" Ripping Yarns - Tomkinson's Schooldays. --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Schleswig-Holstein Message-ID:Date: 16 Jun 94 02:03:19 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4612 This is not RQ, but since Sandy and Nils disussed it here, and I happen to live in the area in question: 1864 the Prussians and Austrians invaded the Duchy of Holstein, which was part of the German Empire, and the Duchy of Schleswig, which was part of the Danish kingdom, both of which were ruled by the Danish king. The war was part of Bismarck's scheme to create a German state, and to exclude Austria from the leading role in it. As a result, Austria occupied Holstein, and Prussia Schleswig, which made Austria overextend itself. Now back to RuneQuest. -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Loskalmi prejudices Message-ID: Date: 16 Jun 94 02:03:54 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4613 Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 4576 > And indeed, the situation is Nothing Like the above. The Loskalmi army > numbers 55,000, while there are 85,000 Warriors in the KoW. How did you arrive at this number of 85,000? 420,000/5? With this percentage of warriors, no wonder they rely on loot and pillage for subsistence. > Absolutely. These Weird Barbarians talk such nonsense they're pretty > harmless; they don't know enough about the Invisible God to say something > blasphemous about him. Peasants don't understand a word of what they say, > unlike those evil Jonatelan heretics we have to execute every so often when > they blandish our good folk with their talk of honour to all men, whatever > his place. Honour to all men, whatever his place? This sounds more like Rokari doctrine to keep the serfs in their allotted places than like "let's suppress our pagan farmers" Jonatela. >> I'm not sure if their opinion >> vis-a-vis the Rokari is the dire hatred of the Roman Catholic for the >> Lutheran, or the relatively mild distaste of the Greek Orthodox for >> the Roman Catholic. > Something more like the first, I think. We're not talking about the > odd "filoque" here or there. I can buy this for the Rokari, but hardly for the Jonatings. Somehow I have the impression that the Ecclesiarch in Southpoint thinks that the Jonating way is the right attitude towards non-believers. -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: csc3rwm@cabell.vcu.edu (Rodney W. Morris) Subject: The revival of the net.plot.book Message-ID: <9406160157.AA10138@cabell.vcu.edu> Date: 16 Jun 94 01:57:24 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4614 The Prince of Darkness X-Mailer: ELM-MIME [version 1.0 PL0] I am reviving the Net.Plot.Book, beginning with Volume III. If you have any ideas for plots of any kind, please drop me a line. The idea shouldn't be too detailed. No need for specific stats and such, just some plot lines for GMs to grab and use in their campaigns. Be kind and include your RL name, and the system or genres your plot is meant for ('misc' is a viable genre). Chances are you'll see your name in print, at the least. Please include PLOTS: in your header. I will be posting the results of the book, when I think it's big enough to ;) to the list as well as major rpg ftp sites, in ascii format. PLEASE only send these to me, as I'm not subscribed to many of the lists I've sent this message to. Thanks. Lucifer >:} csc3rwm@cabell.vcu.edu P.S. If you can contact the previous owner of these books (or ARE that person), please drop me a line. I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes, I'd just like to see further issues...and, as they say, if you want something done... --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Curved blades Message-ID: Date: 16 Jun 94 02:51:33 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4615 Lew Jardine in X-RQ-ID: 4575 > I am unconvinced about the ubiquity of the scimitar in the Lunar army. > Sure all the Officers wear them, but can you imagine close order infantry > using them? The point in using curved blades for Lunar side weapons is twofold: a) the curve of th blade resembles the sickle of the moon, and b) ever since Yanafal cheated curved blades are the safer way for Lunar warriors against sword-breaking spirits of reprisal. I think that a) is as important as b). It also includes another quite fitting earth parallel for the Lunars: the Saracenes, fighting under the banner of the half moon, which in turn came from the Prophet's curved dagger stuck into a pole as a standard for battle. The curved blade also nicely symboizes the Lunar attitude towards death: it's only part of the cycle/circe of existence. Enemies say that the Luanrs are as bent (or if they are satirical, as straight) as their blades. > I see expensive swords being used by cavalry and officers but > not by rank and file close order infantry. I agree largely that the superior scimitar will be the tool of the officer, and the cavalry sabre was a well established weapon, too. But I see nothing to prevent the regular Lunar soldier, be he Peltast or Hoplite, from bearing a shorter curved blade in his belt. A weapon not unlike the scramaseax of the Germanic peasants, the cheaper version of a sword, or just a long slashing knife. For a quick reference I checked the Palladium book of weapons etc. Almost a third of all the daggers and swords shown, mainly from Islamic or south Asian origin, are suitably curved to pass as sickle. The Kukri of RQ3 is the perfect short sword for Lunar infantry, IMO. > Spears are much cheaper and more > effective for close order troops. My idea about the lunars is that they > are the first people in the region to combine infantry and heavy cavalry. I don't buy that. The Carmanians had the combination before - mounted knights and armed peasant troops, some of these trained to good efficiency. The Solars combined chariots and hoplite infantry. The Pentants used nobility cavalry of all types and native infantry before, and to good effect, against the mainly infantry troops of the Second Council. > Dara Happans had NO cavalry only chariots (both heavy and light). For the 1st Age Dara Happans I might agree. 2nd Age Dara Happa persisted against Pent, Carmania and the EWF for some time. If they didn't use cavalry against some of these, I doubt they wold have held out as long as they did. their land, even where protected by irrigation trenches, offers few geographical features to hinder invading enemies. > Yelmalians developed horse archers (or stole the idea from the Pentans) and > also used to use light chariots (ref: Yamsur & the Dragon...) Perhaps the > horse archers replaced the light chariots. There is no point in the using > heavy cavalry in Prax or near Esrolia so perhaps they have never developed it. Heavy horse cavalry, even though only medium compared to a Bison or Rhino charge, still is a potent tactical unit, and against Sables or Impalas is a shock force not to be underestimated. The Golden Horse people held their position in Prax throughout the EWF presence, and longer. Near Esrolia cavalry seems useful enough that Tatius the Bright detached the Grazeland Horse Army to Esrolia in 1622, as sufficient measure of control against local forces. Only when Brian led the Hendriki forces to Esrolia a year later these troops were defeated. > On the subject of Dara Happans I believe that the Assyrians or > Babylonians or Homeric Greeks are a good model. Heavy infantry armed with > spears supported by lighted troops with Chariots used as the mobile strike > force. And also the beards are a MUST. An Indian force with some cavalry wouldn't be out of possibility either... -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Sartar is abnormal Orlanthi the nth Message-ID: Date: 16 Jun 94 02:52:11 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4616 Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 4581 > The trad. Ralian form of elective confederate kingship looks significantly > different to the more hereditary type we see in Sartar, to my (optimistic) > eye. Orlanth Rex would be King of the Gods for different reasons in Ralios, > and far more easily ousted by dissent among his followers. Sartar kingship (or rather princeship, from the "hereditary" bit I conclude tribal kings aren't what you mean) IMO is rather Western or even Dara Happan in character than Orlanthi. When the later kings of the Twin Dynasty, starting with Yarandros, put the right of first birth above the right of achievement and approvement, they took over a concept foreign to Orlanthi culture and society, more at home in either Dara Happa or Western society. The post of the Prince of Sartar was hereditary from the beginning. Apparently it was connected to a family strain of constructive magic: all Sartarite kings were builders of sort (another un-Orlanthi thing to do: build solid roads or city walls and towers). Sartar became king because he was so much un-Orlanthi that he could overcome tradition and offer an alternative. When his successors slowly became more Orlanthi, they lost some of these special powers and alliances Sartar had when he founded Boldhome, most important the help of dwarf and dragonewt magic. Did it occur to anyone that the founding of Boldhome might have been an essential preparation to the Dragonewts' Dream? > And incur the eternal hatred of those who can't access that archive? Don't > do it, Sam! Post it here, where we can all read it! I'll join this movement. > I misspoke: Hykimi androgyny. Androgeus is, as ever, the Unnatural One. > (Though some Vadeli come a close second). Only the exceptionally naughty > Twins of Tarsh can tolerate his/her practices. (At the same time??). A thing that bugged me: Are these twins the children of Arim and Sorana called from their hero-cult, or are they a new generation of royal twins from the Exiles? > Graeme reiterated: >> I don't think I'm oversimplifying the Lunars when I say they haven't >> developed an idea (creating a new language and imposing it upon the >> populace in order to manipulate their personalities to desired ends) >> that has only been developed in 20th century speculative fiction. > Check out Plato's Republic. 5th century BC: 2500 years earlier than your > frame of reference. I'll concur with the "speculative fiction" tag, though. Another, in Glorantha historical, influence of language on the way people thought were the early stages of the EWF, when people first learned to speak, then to think draconic. The Lunars _know_ that this works, they aren't the first to use this way. They are the first to construct such a language, though, which may explain the flaws in their scheme. But then the language they work from has been influenced by illuminates already in the past, so they just had to collect the relevant Solar and Illuminate phrases and "enrich" and emphasize them in New Pelorian. -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Prince caste? Message-ID: Date: 16 Jun 94 02:52:52 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4617 Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 4588 >>> But at any rate, >>> what else would one call Hrestol, since any other caste terminology couldn't >>> have been invented yet, his own (if any) being the earliest alternative. >> Prince, as the Malkioni do. > I suspect this is a Joerg "Nya!", but at any rate, I'll bite: Prince is a > title, not a caste description. Ok, but the title is one exclusively related to the ruler caste. I think that "ruler" or "lord" in Brithini is called "talar", but for the Western colonies we can assume a considerable change of language over the (3000?) generations in the pre-Dawn (after I Fought We Won, according to Uz Lore). > Eh, or at least his revelation, and building of Malkonwal did. I hereby > disclaim any suggestion about when he was born, or whatever. According to an old issue (8) of either Wyrm's Footnotes or Different Worlds, he was the son of the Kolating Aerlit and the sea-nymph Warera Triolina. Now Aerlit sounds sufficiently similar to Orlanth if Gonn Orta is connected to Genert (*rl*t and G*n*rt). Could Aerlit be another version of the Orlanth-Vorlan-Worlath-Oralanatus-Lanatum-Resant-Orlando variation? BTW, Nick: Orlando for all of Ralios seems wrong to me in light of the name Worlath (used elsewhere in one breath with Ehilm), but I applaud its use in Safelster. -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de