From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 18 Jun 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Sumerians
Message-ID: <940617081341_100270.337_BHL82-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 17 Jun 94 08:13:42 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4644
_________________
Sumerian Thought:
Cullen:
>> I think you're suffering from overexposure to modern rational people.
>> Do you really think someone who was raised in Ancient Sumeria or as a
>> medieval peasant really reasoned like you do?"
Devin:
> Yes, in general I do. Do you really believe that someone who was raised
> in Ancient Sumeria or as a medieval peasant is really that different from
> us today (at least emotionally)?
Yes, in general I do. Is reading history not fashionable in California, or
something? Why not look at the way they acted, wrote, thought: *then* tell
me they're "no different from us". Instead of building castles in the air
with your head in the sand. (Hmm... an odd mixture, but I like it).
______
David:
> I would like Joerg's suggestion of using "Orlando" in Safelster (since
> they don't speak a Theyalan language), except Safelster is part of
> Ralios, so you'd expect "Worlath" to be used...
Hang on: I meant "Orlando" to be, consonant-for-consonant, almost exactly
the same as Orlanth: TH --> D is straightforward enough for any world, and
the -O on the end is necessary to decline a name in those funky Theyalan
Ralian languages. I also thought "Worlath" was from Seshnela, where the
stories about him presumably originated; my "Vorlan" from Wenelia is a
half-way house between that and Dragon Pass "Orlanth".
i.e: "Orlando" is more mainstream-Theyalan than "Worlath" or "Vorlan".
I guess I'm asking how tiny the differences between Sartarite and Theyalan
Ralian languages are in your version of Glorantha.
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Why the zealots, Devin?
Message-ID:
Date: 17 Jun 94 11:23:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4645
Devin Cutler in X-RQ-ID: 4636
> Sorry, I don't agree with this at all. I refuse to believe that a group of
> Cacodemon wqorshippers could take over a shrine of, say, Humakt, torture the
> Priest until he showed them the rituals (or simply secretly observed the
> rituals before sacking the temple), and then begin to sacrifice for Truesword
> at will for the rest of their lives.
Neither do I. If they tried to torture the priest within his own temple
to make him betray his deity, I think he'd DI out of it right into Humakt's
Halls and take the secrets with him, reactivating all the temple defenses
lots of Sever Spirit) to take the torturers with him.
Even a Chalana Arroy priestess would rather die by DI (healing her slain
or fleeing companions while consuming the mundane part of her soul) than
reveal the cult secrets to Chaos.
On the other hand, Humakt doesn't take the anti-chaos checks for applicants
too far - read "The Smell of a Rat" in RQ-Companion.
> Yes, the Compromise exists and restrains the gods, but IMO it doesn't turn
> them into mindless idiots who will give their powers to anyone who waves his
> hand and dances in the right fashion.
If a bunch of Ogres found a way to develop a worship of Humakt without
intervention from other Humakti, I bet they'll get into contact, and build
up their own temple.
If an obscure sect of Lunarized Carmanians starts to worship Invisible
Orlanth, the storm god will respond. Heck, the Umathelans even worshipped
Jogrampur and got a response. The worshippers shape the link to the deity.
It may not have occurred to anyone, but if a bunch of dissatisfied Solars
started to worship Orlanth Wakbothi, they'd get a response over time. I
wouldn't put this past post-Dwernapple Lunar Empire (to counter the
temples of the Reaching Storm insiduously), either. If Solar-descended
Pentans could enter fully-fledged Storm worship, why can't the Lunars in
a twisted way?
> Alex writes:
> "Resurrection has strict time limits, and must be done _before_ someone
> goes to their afterlife (or not). Hence bringing back someone _after_
> this is a totally different matter."
> I fail to see the difference. The great dividing line is life vs death. Even
> if "Heaven" has not been reached, it is clear that one survives after death,
> simply because after Resurrection, one is alive after having spiritually left
> his body. The fact that there is some sort of certain existence after death
> makes the difference.
About the same as the real world occurrences of apparent death, or people
fetched back after being clinically dead. The latter doesn't work either
if you come way too late. Too late on Glorantha is about a week.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: stuff
Message-ID:
Date: 17 Jun 94 11:46:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4646
Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 4634
> In general, through history, well-drilled
> infantry specialists have been able to defeat cavalry (Longbowmen,
> Landsknecht, phalanxes, etc.). But such excellent infantry are rare.
> Probably rarer in Glorantha than Earth. I don't think that the
> Malkioni have such troops, except maybe for the Brithini, whose
> Horals have to fight horsemen all the time.
I doubt that the Horals were the effective anti-horse troop as you
picture them. When Hrestol conceived the idea of a heavy cavalry he
did so because his country was beset by Basmoli against whose
hit-and-run tactics there was no effective countermeasure. In the
ensuing religious dissent, the Seshnegi chivalry kept the upper hand
against the Arolanit Horals even though the latter had vastly more
experience and was backed by more powerful magic than the Hrestoli.
The Horal army of Arolanit which included Arkat was crushed in their
first battle against Tanisor, barbarians who did use horses.
> To sum up, IMO the only Genertelan soldiery that boasts
> infantry disciplined enough and trained to beat off a good cavalry
> charge are the following: Sun Dome Templars, Lunar Heartland troops,
> Agimori, and Brithini Horals. (I'm probably forgetting someone.)
3000 Loskalmi elite foot of the Grand Battle - they're trained against
knights, which ought to show.
Kralori heavy infantry - good against charges, but helpless against horse
archery on their own (without magical backing).
> Joerg Baumgartner:
>> The point in using curved blades for Lunar side weapons is twofold:
>> a) the curve of th blade resembles the sickle of the moon, and
>> b) ever since Yanafal cheated curved blades are the safer way for
>> Lunar warriors against sword-breaking spirits of reprisal.
> Even more important: curved blades make dandy weapons, which
> is why the Arabs used 'em (after the fact, there was a semi-religious
> explanation that it resembled the crescent banner, but this was
> _after_ the fact -- also North African Berbers used straight blades).
Depends on the fighting style you favour. Generally long blades are the
weapons of individual fighters, not massed and coordinated troops, which
is why cavalry was so fond of them as second attack (the first usually
being a variant of spear or missile) after charge formation had broken up.
The individual fighter mostly tended to be (or consider himself)
part of the nobility, while the man in the line emphasized duty over
personal achievement.
> My own belief is that curved blades were used in Peloria
> BEFORE the Lunars ever came along.
By the Pent nomads, no doubt. The curved slashing cavalry sword would
be a natural weapon for them. I wonder whether their tribal chieftains
during the darkness had been recruited from shaman-smiths able to forge
these from the bones of the gods?
> For some reason, I like the theory that the Carmanians
> somehow came to use curved swords in the years since their exile from
> Fronela (maybe I think this way because of the Persian connection),
> and that the Lunars adopted it from them.
Do you have any reason why they should have done so? Knights with
curved blades sounds more Moorish Spain to me than Persian.
> I also like the theory that the Pent sun nomads use curved
> swords, and this may be another influence on the Dara Happans.
Anything the Pentans did was considered improper by the Dara Happans.
Even if it was a proven method, I doubt the Dara Happans would have
copied much from their former overlords. See below.
Lewis:
>>> Dara Happans had NO cavalry only chariots (both heavy and light).
> Joerg says:
>> For the 1st Age Dara Happans I might agree.
> Don't give in, Joerg! The First Age Dara Happans were
> occupied by the Pent nomads. They had an extremely close-in look at
> horse cavalry, how it worked, and how to do it. They'd been occupied
> for generations. I can't believe they didn't know about cavalry --
> the nobles might have ridden chariots, as the elite vehicle, but I
> bet they had plenty of light cavalry.
I think the aloof Dara Happans would have considered so close contact
to a sweating beast impure, if not bestial. They'd have relied on
mounted auxilia, but hardly made the best cavalry themselves. Maybe
the cultist of the Sun Dome deity with their Kuschile archery
(inherited from the Pentans, no doubt) would have stepped in over time.
One important reason why I don't see post-Argentium Thriile Dara Happa
fielding mounted troops en masse is that the Pentans took the best
breeding stock with them, and the Beast Rider overlords imposed on
Peloria by the Theyalans did their best to wipe out or at least degrade
the remaining horses. Instead, already the Dara Happans would have had
heavy bison-riding nobility from Peloria and medium sable-riding cavalry
from Kostaddi as auxilary troops.
BTW, did the Impala Riders participate at Argentium Thriile and gain a
lordship? If so, does it show in the genes somewhere in Peloria? (Sor-eel
the Short: maybe the Eel-ariash?)
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: The Twins, and other boardgame heroes
Message-ID:
Date: 17 Jun 94 11:47:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4647
Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 4637
In reply to Brian:
> One basic HeroQuest is the one that finds out your father was God. Solves
> loadsa problems with heroes' ancestry. Check Campbell for more...
In reply to me:
>> A thing that bugged me: Are these twins the children of Arim and Sorana
>> called from their hero-cult, or are they a new generation of royal twins
>> from the Exiles?
> See last post: they can be both!
No doubt about that. The thing is that apart from Androgeus the Twins are
the only heroes of the Dragon Pass boardgame who didn't make it into
Genertela Book. Beat-pot made it at least into the prophecy on p.54,
although his imminent Redland slave revolt isn't mentioned in the Lunar
near future (nor recent history).
Since Arkat and Belintar managed to call King Heort, Tessele the True and
Vogarth Strong Man into the mundane plane without any LBQ-like effort, and
Jaldon can be returned by a similar means, is there an altar to the Twins
where they can be recalled to their nation? (Another version of the King
below the Mountain myth, this mountain being Wintertop?)
If so, the why haven't they been called by Palashee Long Axe for the
defense against Philigos and Phargentes? Or is there a hidden bloodline
of the Twin dynasty as the only ones able to perform this rite, which
only steps forth after Sartar has been freed? Annstad of Dunstop maybe?
Androgeus would be quite likely to stalk one of the adjacent Blank
Lands (most likely Garsting during the time covered in Griffin
Mountain, and Balazar afterwards) so that she could make his arrival a
surprise, I guess.
A question of appeal to all the Gloranthan RuneQuesters out there: can
we make away with the concept of Blank Lands by now? Now Glorantha has
become the world of conflicting myths and histories, do we need this
games construct of a bygone rpg generation any more? To call Balazar a
Blank Land is purest sarcasm, IMO, and I bet that if we collected ideas
about Jarst (mentioned in about four sentences published so far) and
Garsting, and put them together, we'd get a more complete picture.
For one thing, these areas _have_ been used in subsequent Chaosium
publications (the Votanki haven't been edited out of either Troll Pak
or GRoY), for the other thing, if people have used these areas, they'd
get a chance to include their material into the greater picture.
Opinions?
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Names of the Thunderer continued
Message-ID:
Date: 17 Jun 94 11:47:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4648
David Dunham in X-RQ-ID: 4639
> I would like Joerg's suggestion of using "Orlando" in Safelster (since they
> don't speak a Theyalan language), except Safalster is part of Ralios, so
> you'd expect "Worlath" to be used...
My reasoning was that if small Maniria can house two names for the
Thunderer (Orlanth in Sartar, Vorlan in Wenelia), why couldn't vast
Ralios do so as well?
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172)
Subject: another tale
Message-ID: <01HDN3XGW1XCQWWX8P@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: 17 Jun 94 02:03:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4649
The Crippling of Lokarma
(The following is a piece of the Imtherian Lightbringer cycle. Lagavar
is the Lightfore planet and is considered the hero/leader of the quest.
Khalana is the healer. Orlantio is the trickster and not the leader in
the Imther version. Kagozhim Gearmesher is a dwarf and the keeper of
knowledge. Lokarma is the Imtherian goddess of trade and is seen
regularly in the sky--the star known elsewhere as Wagon.)
Now when the Lightbringers approached the River of Swords, they could
see a large crowd gathered there. All were pale, shadowy forms which
cried in anguish or wept profusely. They shied away from the light of
Lagavar--all but one, but looked hungrily upon the party.
Lagavar was surprised for this was none other than Basmal, the Lord of
the Lightnings. "Who are these folk that you stand amongst and how came
you to be with them?" asked Lagavar.
Basmal scowled, "These are the dead who lack coin for their passage.
They are left behind, forgotten and unloved, in their death. Therefore
they weep and will always weep lest someone find their rotted bodies and
offer up their fare. As for me, ask that foul traitor amongst you."
Basmal pointed angrily at Orlantio. "He stripped me of my spear and
claws, then cast me here. My followers are gone and none came to give
me a coin. I am stuck here, too, but I can and will strip him of his
very skin." And Basmal stepped forward to rend Orlantio.
But Orlantio ducked behind Lagavar and Lagavar stood firm. "Stop
cousin! Though I see your hate and understand it, you cannot have him."
Basmal bellowed in rage. "I will make him pay!"
"No," replied Lagavar firmly, "you will begone and let us pass. For
though he is a traitor, I still need him for the final dance."
Basmal glared and stomped, but finally left their company. "Good
riddance to you, too, broken hand!" Orlantio called out after him.
"Hush, insolent wretch!" answered Lagavar. But Orlantio continued
taunting the wretched dead until they reached the river's edge.
At the edge of that harsh river, where all the world's swords rush by to
destroy any who would touch its stream, sat a Ferryman in his boat. Now
the Ferryman was a gloomy god bound by oaths sworn upon the black waters
to carry those souls who had their coin into the Second Hell.
"Master of this boat, we seek to cross this river," stated Lagavar
simply.
The Ferryman surveyed the party but shook his head. "You are not dead
and only the dead may cross this river."
The Lightbringers had expected this and Lokarma, she of the coin,
stepped forward. "Ah, but we have the proper payment. Surely that will
mitigate such a trivial detail. Accept these seven coppers, one for
each, so that we can be on our way."
The Ferryman shook his head. "You are not dead and no seven coppers
will make you so. You may not cross."
Lokarma, still smiling, answered, "I see your price is higher for such
as us. We offer you five coppers apiece so that we can be on our way."
Still the Ferryman frowned and shook his head. "Such an offer has no
meaning here. You may not cross."
Lokarma touched her cheek and pondered this before continuing. "You
position is hard, but I think you could allow us passage for, say, 100
coppers apiece or if that won't do, a wheel of purest gold, freshly
cut." She smiled at her skill.
But the Ferryman was unmoved and repeated his position once again.
Lokarma offered jewels, but the Ferryman refused. Lokarman offered
magics, but the Ferryman would not budge.
Orlantio shook his head. To Lagavar he said, "Slay him and be done with
him. He only blocks our path and we can guide a boat as well as he."
"Violence is not the only way, fool," said Lagavar angrily. "The
Ferryman has a task which we should not stop. We will go and find
another way."
And as they were about to leave, Lokarman cried out, "Wait. I have one
more offer." She turned to the Ferryman. "You who are so dark and
gloomy, why are you so? Do you not enjoy your task?"
"I do," replied the Ferryman, "but I long to see my kin who dwell
elsewhere and have their own tasks. But I am bound to stay here to keep
my vows."
"This then is my final offer. Go and see your kin. For if you give us
passage, I will perform your task until you return and ensure that your
vows are kept."
Now at this offer, the Ferryman looked puzzled. He thought long and
hard upon the matter. "Very well, for this offer I shall give you
passage with one final condition--you must give me your hamstrings as
surety of your word."
Lokarma was reluctant to do so for she was a dancer and did not like to
be left without motion. "Is one sufficient? For with just one I could
not keep up with the others and would die by myself in this hell. I am
a goddess of her word."
"No," replied the Ferryman, it must be both."
So Lokarma came and sat in the boat and gave up her hamstrings. The
others then entered the boat. Under the steady strokes of the Ferryman
they crossed the river of swords and reached the far bank.
There the Ferryman scrambled out and up the bank with a smile upon his
face. "Farewell and remember, you are now bound to my oath--see that
the dead do not back up or the black waters shall consume you! I will
return when I am ready." And then he was gone into the shadows of the
Second Hell.
Lagavar asked Khalana, "Can you heal her so that we can depart
together?"
Khalana replied, "No, for to heal her I must give up those very strings
needed to make my magics."
Lagavar went up the bank then and the others, all but Lokarma, followed
him up the bank. "You have undertaken a grave task for our sake, dear
sister."
Lokarma shook her head sadly, "If it is needed, then so it shall be. I
will follow as I can when the Ferryman returns."
Lagavar broke a branch from his torch and lit it. "Keep this with you
as a reminder of our task. It will guide you to me when you can come.
Know that your tasks are not yet at an end and I will need you yet
again."
Lokarma took the torch and kissed Lagavar goodbye. "I look forward to
that meeting."
Then with slow strokes, Lokarman dipped the oars into the sword waters
and crossed back to fetch the dead. Lagavar and the others moved sadly
and quietly on into the shadows of the Second Hell.
Notes:
1) It is said in Imther that the Ferryman eventually returned but made
another bargain with Lokarma--that she must return regularly to relieve
him of his task so that he could visit his kin. That is why Lokarma
moves so slowly across the sky, for she only reluctantly agreed and
tries to prolong her time away as long as possible.
2) An ending popular amongst the Grigor marl is that Lokarma fell in
love with the sad Ferryman and agreed to marry him. Since she was still
bound to assist Lagavar, she did so, but gave the Ferryman a hamstring
so that he would know that she would return.
3) An another alternate ending says that on the way across, Kagozhim
fashioned a new pair of hamstrings out of gold and copper which he gave
to Lokarma in secret. When they reached the far bank, Lagavar insisted
that his party be allowed out so that the Ferryman would have room to
show Lokarma how to work the boat. But when they were out, Lokarma
jumped out too using her new hamstrings and the Ferryman was left in the
boat. But the new hamstrings were not as good as the old ones and
always have to be repaired--that is why Lokarma takes so long on her
journey.