From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 18 Jun 1994, part 2 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com (Official Heat Sink) Subject: Ripping off the Gods of Gullibility Message-ID: <01HDN4TBWG2A8Y8H87@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com> Date: 17 Jun 94 03:28:24 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4650 Colin Watson: >IMO one who knows the appropriate rituals (and how to perform them) >to get Axe Trance (reusably) effectively *becomes* a priestess of >Babeester Gor regardless of how they reached that status or how they >intend to use it. A good point, but I don't entirely buy into the "regardless" part. I'll grant perhaps that their intentions can be masked, but I think it makes a difference as to how they reached "priest" status. After all, part of the point of sacking power to the god (Joerg and Alex, STAY OUT OF THIS!) is to create a link to the god through which magic flows. No sacrifice, to way to scarf up magic. I think you must be initiated at some point to pull this off. (One could argue that by learning the ritual, one sacks POW, but that's stretching it....) >Gods get their primary knowledge of you through your worship and >prayers. ... >Gods get secondary knowledge about you from what other worshippers >tell of you in their prayers. >This mass of information is available to the priests of the cult >should they wish to cast a Divination about you. True, but... :) It seems obvious that the gods know about things in mundane Glorantha that no worshipper really knows. I admit that this "tertiary" knowledge is pretty hazy most of the time, but I think that whilst the gods might be limited in their actions (because of the Compromise), they can still fiddle with the remote control and WATCH things. Ergo, the gods know more about you than you think. The primary and secondary knowledge might have more weight, but I still think they'd know what else you'd been doing, even in secret. >My impression is that the God will be "displeased" if you are lax in >your worship or if you (stupidly) blaspheme whilst praying or such. >This amounts to "botching-up the ritual". In such cases you will >have trouble getting a response out of your God and may even suffer >some sort of retribution. True. >I never said it would be easy, but it's feasible. No? Feasible, yes. I just have trouble accepting that it is so. :) I just like my gods to be, well, godly. --Scott --------------------- From: niwe@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander) Subject: Here be dragons Message-ID: <9406171531.AA26883@ppvku.ericsson.se> Date: 17 Jun 94 19:31:04 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4651 Nils Weinander writing Joerg on dragons: >Of course the later stage of the EWF aka Third Council identified all >the major powers (dare I say Runes?) as dragons, such as the Diamond >Storm Dragon Drang (or Dreng), or the Sun Dragon which is somehow tied >to the Pavis Rubble. (Their dragon creation, or rather awakening, >experiments as in Ormsgone Valley and all over their empire relied of >the communal minds of the inhabitants, though. Did they create or >summon the great elemental dragons the Carmanians were so fond of >slaying?) No I can see why you dislike my Sun Dragon name for Yelm. I never meant that the Kralorelan Sun Dragon is the same as the EWF Sun Dragon, they just are called the same. Anyway, I will make my view on Kralorela and the sky gods a bit clearer. To avoid allegations of God Learner monomythizing or any thing like that I put my words in the mouth of a Gloranthan. Here is a Kralorelan creation myth, as presented by Red Tiger: '... The honourable mandarin Imila Wan, called Master Two Brush because he can write with both hands at once, head of the large school in nearby {city name unreadable because of a ripe plum having been crushed when the scroll was rolled} ... me to write a text on ancient history. This is what I wrote of the Beginning {this word is hard to translate, it could mean creation, beginning or transition}. First was the Void, which is nothing and everything. That is the first manifestation of the paradox. Second was Ea Long, the Cosmic Dragon, which sprung from the Void. This is the second manifestation of the paradox. It felt the obligation to create the possibilities and thus dismembered itself. Its parts formed the following: Third were the Great Beings {this words denotes very powerful entities, encompassing deities etc}. From the Cosmic Dragon's soul the true dragons were created. They came first, and they are closest to Ea Long in concept. From its mind sprang Brightness {Aether}, which is not a true dragon, but is of draconic nature, because the mind is close to the soul. Brightness is thus also known as Ringten Long, the Bright Dragon. From its breath sprang Storm {Umath}. From its blood sprang Ocean {gaaah, what's the name of the primal water?}. From its bones sprang Earth {Gata}. From its innards sprang Darkness {I forgot primal darkness too}. The Western people {could also be read ignorants, or even inferior men} debate in which order these were created. This is not of significance since time did not exist then. {It is interesting to note that Red Tiger holds the true dragons as older than the primal elements. He also contradicts himself here.} Fourth were the descendants of the Great Beings. The children of Brightness are the dragons of the sky: Yang Long the Sun {Yelm}, Tien Long {Dayzatar, I haven't invented another name yet} the Sky and Arun Long the Fire {Lodril}. The children of Storm are the unruly gods and spirits of the air. The children of Ocean are the fearsome gods of the sea. The children of Earth are the gods and goddesses of the land on which we all live. The children of Darkness are the spirits of envy and hunger, lurking at borders. ... This is the story of the Beginning which is taught by imperial wisdom. Those who are devout worshippers of the children of the Great Beings have other stories. Thus the priests of Yang Long say that he is the emperor of the universe, just as Godunya, our ruler of blessed wisdom is the emperor of Kralorela. They also say that his name is Yang Ti, Sun Lord. They are still good citizens of the empire and perform divine miracles with the power of their patron. This implies that both stories are true; my story is true for me and you who are learning the blessed wisdom, the story of the priests is true for the followers of the gods. That many truths exist is another manifestation of the paradox. {Kralorelan society is said to accept and incorporate various, even conflicting, viewpoints and myths. This is an attempt to illustrate that}. ...' /Nils W --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: rockwoods Message-ID: <9406171636.AA03324@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 17 Jun 94 04:36:55 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4652 Lewis Jardine sez: >Sandy makes a point about Swiss halberds being used in pike >phalanxes. While I am no expert on these I assume that they were >used to protect the vulnerable sides and rear and not as part of the >wall of spikes to the front. Also the Swiss did not use large >shields. The halberds were actually in the middle of the formation. Admittedly, not in the front rows, but when the pike row got broken up or in a pushing fight, the halberds got used, and so could the scimitars be. The Swiss did not use large shields, but the Macedonians did. I'm not sure what this has to do with it. I have read a couple of books which claim that some Landsknecht units, primarily pike-armed filled their front rank(!) with two-handed sword wielders. >Don't you think the romans would have adopted a long slashing weapon >in Dacia when they were having their arms chopped off by peasants >with romphia. >Basically close order infantry with large shields have a very >restricted weapon movement I can only point out that in the late Empire the Roman legions DID go to a long slashing blade. Also, the Gauls, before their conquest, fought in very dense groups and used both shields and long slashing swords. There's other examples of same. (Like the slashing swords used by the Greeks in their own phalanxes.) What you must understand is that you don't have to swing your arm way out to the side to slash -- just go up and down. It's the strongest blow you can make anyway. Even so, the Lunars may have had to restrict themselves to And also note that the Lunar hoplite is only expected to go to his sword when the line of spears has begun to break up, and hand-to-hand combat is entered. > I see the Lunar hoplite's sidearm as being a sturdy >dagger/shortsword length weapon with a curved double-edged blade. >More similar to an arab weapon which would be used to thrust and cut >upwards. When held the point would curve up rather than down like a >kukri. I'm not sure which way the point curves, but the stats for the Lunar military sickle in RQ terms are the same as a kukri in my campaign, and have been so for many years now (11!). Dave says >I think that the Loskalmi think that they are well prepared, their >knights practice a lot at tournaments and duels. And many of their >knights are extremely skilled - at individual combat. When it comes >to warfare, the vast majority of them are parade ground only. Hear, hear! Dave Cheng opines: >My only rational conclusion is that Nyarlathotep has taught Sandy >Petersen how to make clones of himself. This horde of proto-Sandys >is busy influencing as many thousands of us innocents as possible. Dave, I'd like to discuss this with you in an up-close most personal way. What's your home address? Any family? Besides, we're not clones, we're pods. >Henk, is there any way we can seal each Daily with some kind of >Electronic Elder Sign? Henk, you do that, and I'll stop posting. [threatening glare] Devin Cutler: >I refuse to believe that a group of Cacodemon wqorshippers could >take over a shrine of, say, Humakt, torture the Priest until he >showed them the rituals, and then begin to sacrifice for Truesword >at will for the rest of their lives. No, of course not. But if those same Cacodemon worshipers simply concealed their ogreish nature, applied (and qualified) for Initiation into the Humakt temple, and adhered to the cult rules and geases until one of them had qualified for Sword, then they could learn all the Truesword they wanted. They'd still have to keep their geases, unless Illuminated, but there you are. That (or something like that) is what Ralzakark's band o' Humakti broo are. They don't obey many of the Humakti rules, and wreak havoc on the cult sensibilities, but at least they got the power. Ditto for Ralzakark's Chalana Arroy healers, who pretty much only heal broos. > it is clear that one survives after death, simply because after >Resurrection, one is alive after having spiritually left his body. >The fact that there is some sort of certain existence after death >makes the difference. Most Gloranthan faiths teach that the temporary survival of the spirit after death doesn't mean it lasts much longer than that. Even the Brithini (even the Dwarfs!) know that the spirit retains its personality for a week after death, at which time it breaks up into energy. Of course, theists claim that the 7-day time limit is simply how long it takes for the spirit to make it to Daka Fal's palace. Nick >Loved the Doraddi Darkness/Lightbringers' myths, *especially* the >monsters coming out "to be naughty" after dark... Thanks. I'm proud to be praised by my admitted Master in Myth-telling. Joerg B. asks: >How impassable are these these [Rockwood]mountains? To whom? 'Tis like this. The western "bulge" of the Rockwoods, just north of Sir Ethilrist's territory, where the Northern Rockwoods and Southern Rockwoods meet, is lower to the ground and more passable than most of the Rockwoods (I know of no travels from Wenelia to Ralios, for instance). This is not to say it's easily passable. There are humans living in isolated valleys here, and trolls living on isolated mountain tops. During the summer, the humans pray to their gods in an attempt to thaw the snows sufficiently that they (the humans) can travel from valley to valley and visit one another. This doesn't always happen. During the winter, the trolls pray to their gods in an attempt to freeze the snows sufficiently that they (the trolls) can travel from mountain to mountain over the slow and visit one another. This, too, doesn't always happen. Sending an army through this territory is probably not possible, but parties of adventurers could make it, easy. Though they risk being trapped in a mountain slope during a blizzard. >(What was the continent called during early Godtime, BTW? Lodrilela? >Why call it after an "Earth-King" who had neither taken the rule nor >proven his worth? It was called the Artmali Empire. Before that I know that Ganderland and the Duck Empire covered part of the territory. After the Artmali Empire was destroyed, but "before" Pamalt rose to prominence I don't know who called it what. --------------------- From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson) Subject: Wind-up gods Message-ID: <9406171611.AA06320@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk> Date: 17 Jun 94 17:11:32 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4653 Colin Watson here: Devin states: >I refuse to believe that a group of >Cacodemon worshippers could take over a shrine of, say, Humakt, torture the >Priest until he showed them the rituals (or simply secretly observed the >rituals before sacking the temple), and then begin to sacrifice for Truesword >at will for the rest of their lives. Yes, in practice there are many, many reasons why this sort of thing wouldn't work. Not the least of which are: - Unless the Cacodaemon worshippers were also experienced Godlearners they wouldn't even consider the possibility that this might work. Hence they wouldn't bother trying it. - The Humakti would, of course, happily face death rather than tell. (Visual observation the rituals would not be sufficient because there is so much in working magic which is non-observable.) - Even assuming super-enlightened Cacodaemon worshippers and a spineless cooperating priest: I doubt that the priest would be able to succinctly explain the whole process to the extent that the invaders could re-enact it. It's not the sort of thing which one can scribble down on the back of a cigarette packet. - Even if they understood; it would still be a (years) long process requiring extreme dedication and much sacrificed POW to succeed. - Even in the event of success; if *any* other Humakti priests found out about it, these "new worshippers" would be excommunicated so fast it would make their heads spin clean orf. And they would be right back at square one. Subtle infiltration would have greater hopes of success. Still a lengthy process though. >Yes, the Compromise exists and restrains the gods, but IMO it doesn't turn >them into mindless idiots who will give their powers to anyone who waves his >hand and dances in the right fashion. This is trivialising a rather complex situation. Ok, lets assume the Gods instinctively know when someone is right-thinking. Assume they can tell good-guys from bad-guys; and using their Divine Judgement they decide who gets magic and who doesn't. A couple of questions spring to mind: #1 Why is Excommunication left in the hands of Priests? Surely the God would know best who should be allowed in the cult; who should get spells etc. Why is a priest-driven ritual required to cast someone out? #2 Why have initiates? Why not give *all* the right-thinking worshippers the same powers as priests and screw the rest? The cult would be lots more effective at fulfilling the wishes of God. Well? It strikes me that access to a god's power is governed by the cult and not by the god himself. (At least that's how it seems within Time.) The cult has a hierarchy so that Joe Cynic can't rise in power too quickly and the elders get a chance to assess his worth. If he performs well he is gradually entrusted with more knowledge of the cult's inner secrets. If he steps out of line he gets cut off. ___ CW. --------------------- From: DevinC@aol.com Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 17 Jun 1994, part 1 Message-ID: <9406171433.tn61711@aol.com> Date: 17 Jun 94 18:33:30 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4654 Devin Cutler here: Colin Watson explains his position that as long as the rituals are done properly, then the gods will grant Divine Magic. Asie from my previous objectiosn to this, I would rule that the rituals cannot be done properly without being devoted. In other words, even were one to intellectually know the steps and words involved, the rituals are inherently designed to be emoptional/metaphysical affairs and, thereby, one who is merely going through the motions will tend to botch them. Regarding Eurmal the Murderer: I haven't been following this thread too closely, but isn't it possible to say that Eurmal is a Murderer simply because he was the indirect cause of every murder commited since Godtime by his finding of Death? In a sense, Eurmal murdered Yelm, murdered Flamal, murdered Grandfather Mortal, et al. I don't know if someone else has brought this up, but it seems relevant. Regards, Devin Cutler devinc@aol.com --------------------- From: WALLMAN@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU (Close friend of Little Elvis) Subject: Eurmal the Murderer Message-ID: <01HDNIQF3N0Y003G5C@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU> Date: 17 Jun 94 10:07:57 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4655 > From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) > X-RQ-ID: 4634 > re: Eurmal the Murderer > I think it is mythically important that Humakt be the First > Killer. Greg once told me that the first words Humakt spoke after > slaying Grandfather Mortal were: "What the hell? It wasn't supposed > to do THAT!" The implications re: Eurmal are quite fine indeed. I thought (and thought I read in KoS) that death was brought to mortals when Eurmal gave it to Grandfather Mortal to "try out" or was "demonstrating" it. I have always found this a satisfying explanation because in this way death was created through a mutual effort, the impish "look at this" attitude and naive "let me see" attitude. Of course, this is not a new idea (e.g. Snake: "Want an apple?" Eve: "Sure..."). So of course this is the Involuntary Manslaughter Aspect of Trickster. Oh no, my boss just read what I was typing. Time to update the resume. Ed Wallman@vax2.winona.msus.edu