From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 18 Jun 1994, part 3 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu Subject: Re: Trickster, sorcery/wizardry Message-ID: <9406172023.AA05641@venus.phyast.pitt.edu.phyast.pitt.edu> Date: 17 Jun 94 20:23:53 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4656 Paul Reilly here. People have been discussing the myth behind Remove (Body Part) as a Eurmal spell. We use "Eurmal's Wooing of Babeester Gor", a mock-heroic ballad parallelling (or parodying) Orlanth's WOoing of Ernalda. Ballad is basically identical to Snakefinger's "I Gave Myself to You" off the Vestal Virgins album. I could attempt to transcribe the relevant parts... just one line may serve as a canonical example. "I gave you my liver; you threw it in The River..." ....... Sandy writes an excellent thing on Western magic and ethics, including: > I don't think that the Westerners think of sorcery as being >particularly sacred at all -- it's just a useful tool that they're I agree almost totally with Sandy. Wizardry is based on _knowledge_ about the true principles of the Universe. For transcendant-IG sects, these principles are the Divine Plan and thus sacred in some sense - sort of like Newton's God, or Einstein's God. For the immanent-IG sects, the principles _ARE_ the very stuff of the God. (Like in Stoicism). Thus, they are even more sacred. However, these sacred things can be used rightly or wrongly. Sorcery, the misuse of wizardry, is thus a foul crime - it perverts the sacred knowledge of God's plan for the universe to be used against God's will. Evil, evil, evil. _But_ it still works for the evil - a person's magic is not necessarily a sign of holiness. Holy men have great magic, but so do the unholy. Sandy also writes: " The fact that a change awaits those who dies doesn't meant the part of the spirit is necessarily missing. I'd rather have the subdivided soul beliefs be restricted to a minority of sects. It's my belief that the Individualist dwarfs believe in a subdivided soul -- the POW and MPs go to fuel the World Machine, and the personality, if strongly enough developed, goes Elsewhere. " Basically agree. I think that the Brithini and the early Malkioni believed that the "ghost" was just a form of leftover decomposing "spirit energy", similar to the decomposing matter of the body. The ghost is NOT the person. I think that the original Brithini converts to Malkionism did NOT believe in an individual afterlife per se - such would not have appealed to their emotions or their reasons. I think the Solace ritual was supposed to DISSOLVE you ghost into its component energies, and that the information that made up YOU would be remembered in the Mind of God. Thus the original Solace was a mystic union with the GOdhead, not an elaborate afterlife. Later on, when the religion changed (probably Second Age even) this shifted around and the belief in a Transcendant IG OUTSIDE Glorantha arose. Only then did the idea of souls going to some afterlife get into the religion. Competition with the pagans and their afterlives influenced the religion, esp. during the Second Age. Note that on Earth, many, many religions say little or nothing about the afterlife and it is not that important to them. In some the whole question doesn't even come up. As Westerners influenced by the Christian tradition, we tend to think that this is a burning issue that all religions must address, but in fact this is not so. THe idea that you need a pleasant afterlife to get people to join your religion is just wrong. Look at Aztec or Maya or Sumerian or ancient Greek or Mae Enga or (etc.) beliefs for some counterexamples. Since this emphasis on rewards in the afterlife is (IMO) a feature of Earthly western monotheistic religions, I'd like to get it out of the GLoranthan western monotheistic religions, and leave it in Gloranthan paganism, where we know it exists already. Makes a nice reversed picture from Earth. > Besides, the Hrestoli are English-equivalents, not U.S. >equivalents, and _they've_ had female rulers. PM & Queen. AHa! Now we see the answer to the question "Are they the nice guys of Glorantha?" ! It all depends on your point of view. COnsider the same question asked about the English: generally regarded (especially by themselves) as a nice, civilized nation. However, opinions may differ if we ask a 16th century Irishman (death penalty for teaching the written Irish language, death penalty for being an RC priest, etc.), a 19th century Irishman (food exported to England by force every year during the potato famine ) or a 20th century Indian (Bengal famine c. 1940, politically manipulated). Nice/nasty : you be the judge (BTW: ENglishmen please don't bring up USA actions here - I am ready to admit England is "nicer" than USA, just not a nation whose politicians are saints.) " >re: Eurmal the Murderer > I think it is mythically important that Humakt be the First >Killer. Agree. >Greg once told me that the first words Humakt spoke after >slaying Grandfather Mortal were: "What the hell? It wasn't supposed >to do THAT!" The implications re: Eurmal are quite fine indeed. :-) !! THat's also what we thought here! (no input from Greg). It's obvious that it was a joke on Humakt - after all Eurmal did it. Question is, what did EURMAL think it was supposed to do? Subere has a sense of humor too, and tricks usually backfire on Trickster... >"enemy stronghold" and "enemy holy ground" are different things, but >I'll only say that my house rules hold that enemy holy ground cannot >be DIed within. I've always played this way too, despite what "the rules" said. Actually I thought it should work the other way around - in an enemy God's territory your God might still be able to give you hints, but direct intervention would violate the Compromise. Also, the limitation makes for better stories. > To sum up, IMO the only Genertelan soldiery that boasts >infantry disciplined enough and trained to beat off a good cavalry >charge are the following: Sun Dome Templars, Lunar Heartland troops, >Agimori, and Brithini Horals. (I'm probably forgetting someone.) Yes. Irondwarves, eg. Leaving out Altinae, Luatha, Uzuz, etc... Actually I think you were implicitly limiting to humans. In which case I'd add Red Vadeli (they stood up to the Horali for a LONG time) and perhaps some crack Kralorelan units. > My own belief is that curved blades were used in Peloria >BEFORE the Lunars ever came along. Entirely correct - it's implicit in GRoY and explicit elsewhere. Of course this is before the Red Lunars in Time - remember that she is a partial reconstruction of a shattered Godtime Lunar deity, so "before the Lunars" may not be quite right. In any case, curved blades are ancient in Peloria (Pelanda in particular) > For some reason, I like the theory that the Carmanians >somehow came to use curved swords in the years since their exile from I think that curved blades were used in the territory the Carmanians took, and that Carmania wound up with more native customs than Loskalmi customs. (Like England or perhaps even more like France, Italy, and Spain under the Franks and Goths. Or perhaps better, like the Indo-Greek kingdoms, Bactria, etc.) > I also like the theory that the Pent sun nomads use curved >swords, and this may be another influence on the Dara Happans. Agree. They were ruling DH at the Dawn, no? Still quoting Sandy: > Lew Jardine: >>My idea about the lunars is that they are the first people in the >>region to combine infantry and heavy cavalry. > I didn't buy this before, and I don't buy it now. I still say >the reason for the Lunar dominance is their magic system (not the >_magic_, the _system_), which I've gone into a great length several Agree with Sandy. If anything the Carmanians probably had a _better_ military than the Rinliddi - turned-Lunar they were fighting in the Zero Wane. The magic system won it for them. Once Carmania was conquered, the Lunars absorbed their military system, arguably the best in central Genertela. The Lunar military has been going downhill, if anything, though the Provincial Army has been revitalized. Carmania may pick back up now that the frontier is reopened. ..... Nick writes: >One basic HeroQuest is the one that finds out your father was God. Solves >loadsa problems with heroes' ancestry. Check Campbell for more... I think this kind of Heroquest is common in Glorantha - Arkat, the Sons of Storm Bull, etc. Remember, you could start out an "ordinary person", go on a HeroQuest to Discover your "true" parentage (like Arthur, Theseus, Hercules) and wind up the son of a God or Hero. AND your new, divine, parentage would now be the Truth. Oops, I think I just smashed my own argument that the Red Emperor need not fear usurpation. Oh, well... - Paul R --------------------- From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL) Subject: RE: Jun 16, 1994 (misc.) Message-ID: <940617210752336@thuemmel.com> Date: 17 Jun 94 18:41:42 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4657 Re: Rokari Women. Why is there any argument about this? _Strangers in Prax_ makes it quite clear on pages 64 and 66: "To him (and his culture), women have a few acceptable roles: wife, nun, and perhaps healer or crafter. Women do not fight or travel, they do not participate in government, and they do not act magically except as healers (or renegades." `nuff said. _______ Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 4603 S> so they'll only take the houses on the outside edge, where they Glad you liked my idea, good reasoning WRT animal nomads. I hadn't thought of that angle. S> But they are a DIFFERENT group of gods than the ones who were doing Another fascinating idea! This is an intriguing idea even outside the context, but does it imply that all the non-Lightbringer gods are less firmly bound by Time/Compromise/etc? And most importantly how did the LBers get replaced once they were dead? Could it be some heroquesting wizard named Worlanth went on a HeroQuest and became a god? If so how many other gods have been 'replaced'? Did somebody replace the god of death by the name of Humct? And does this tie into my theory about the God Learner Secret (ie: GLers made all the gods) albeit in a weakened form? _______ Dave Pearton in X-RQ-ID: 4590 D> IMBOYNGIS Good notion, very non-european, but is there any myth associated with this role? If so, could you write it up either in Gloranthized or Real World form for us to look at. If not I'm sure we can make something up, but cannabilizing RW legends and myths often intoduces that unexpected twist. :^) _______ Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 4596 A> But that could be just timist interpretation. Sandy suggests that in A> Genertela, the Sun fell, then chaos invaded, while in Pamaltela, A> choas invaded, causing the sun to fall. These _could_ be two A> different causal glosses on acasual, timeless, events. I must admit, I was struck by their nonchalence about it. But then, they had things like falling dynasties, starvation in the streets, and barbarian invasions to occupy them. A> No, but you should take "Bronze Age" with a tablespoon of NaCl. A> Culturally and otherwise, most of Glorantha is Iron Age+. And do you attribute this (as I do) to the many cultural artifacts (in the broadest sence of that term) which were presumably created not by man but by the gods? _______ Bryan J. Maloney in X-RQ-ID: 4606 B> There are mail-servers for FTP, you know... Ah, the joys of batch processesing... B> Also, all warriors are "nasty" in the sense that they are all really B> just professional killers. Well, some of them (Humakti fer'inst) but Storm Bulls are Holy Killers, Orlanthi Warriors serve their leaders (ok, except Adv.), etc... To much of a generalization, IMHO. _______ Harald Smith in X-RQ-ID: 4608 H> And speaking of Androgeus, does anyone know where he/she is H> located during the period 1615-1625? I was wondering this myself. It doesn't appear in the index to KoS at all. Does it appear under Yet Another Gloranthan Alias [YAGA ;^)]? _______ David Dunham in X-RQ-ID: 4609 D> Sunripen might work more like a greenhouse, though the spell doesn't Earthwarm? Cullen --------------------- From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au Subject: Sogolotha Mambrola Message-ID: <01HDOR1ZW1JC93DR4L@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> Date: 18 Jun 94 22:19:01 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4658 G'day Everyone ______________________________ The Ark of Deliverance Cometh! David Cake discusses Hrestol vs Kingdom of War: >I think that the KOW will initially have many victories (the Order of >the Swallow and perhaps the Sog City Horals their only serious opposition), >but eventually the Loskalm army will stop them, and then the real war will >begin, a long battle with the Kingdom of War having the better troops, the >Loskalm armies being more centrally coordinated and better equipped, and >the Kingdom of War suffering from discension in the ranks. The KoW looms as a menace on the horizon, and refugees arrive in Sog daily from upriver, bearing tales of bloodshed and horror. The corpses floating down the river attest to that. The Sog City Horals might be serious opposition, but they if act like they did when the city was threatened last time, the KoW have nothing to fear. When Harrek the Berserk sacked Sog in 1615, the Brithini overlords simply withdrew behind the red-hot brass walls of their citadel while an orgy of pillage and destruction went on outside. No wonder the apocalyptic Cult of the Ship and City has taken such hold in Sog! I agree with the general consensus that in the up-and-coming conflict KoW vs Loskalm, the KoW will win many early battles, but Loskalm with its superior numbers and organisation (and non-Tapped populace!) will win the war in the end. If the KoW do manage to make a deep incursion into Loskalm, Lord Death will probably have to decide which of the two great peninsulas he wants to concentrate on. The northern peninsula holds the civil capital (Northpoint, with its "incredibly extensive and elaborate fortifications), and the South, the religious (Southpoint, great names huh?). Whatever side the KoW invades, the Loskalmi can coordinate the war from the other side, AND unlike the KoW can transport forces back and fort h with their navy. My guess is they'll roll through the flat farmlands of the south, plundering their way Junora and then into the southern side of Loskalm. Going north is too tricky for an army which relies on and demands plunder: they'd have to wade through Dilis Swamp or loot-free Tastolar first. Unless Lord Death keeps amazingly tight discipline, he will forced by his own greedy troops to go south. Of course, Sog is likely to fall first, after a epic siege not unlike that of Constantinople in 1453, and with similar acts of doomed heroism (read Runciman's book on this: it's one of the most moving history books I've ever read!). I have great hopes that Sog's Talar will come out of his citadel to defend his city then, believing that if his city is to die, he should die with it. Unlike Constantinople though, where the Emperor who founded the city and the Emperor who died defending it against the Turks had the same name, here in Sog its likely that they are the same person! Now doubt we'll all learn more about Sog City, the Kingdom of War and the Loskalmi boot boys at the Seventh Council of Malkion, to be held soon! Cheers, MOB ---------------------