From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 20 Jun 1994, part 4 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex) Subject: re: Soldiers equipment and bits Message-ID: <9406191652.AA27255@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 19 Jun 94 16:52:31 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4669 Lewis Jardine: > S. Jones commented that the Greeks were not a Good model for Lunars, > especially with regard to what their soldiers wore and their fighting style. > I second this opinion and support the *well known* view that a Greek would > rather fight with the but spike of his spear if iw was broken than use his > sword. Their swords must have been awful! Or their training very centred on their use of spears in close formation. > I see the Greeks as a better > model for Sun Dome Templars (Hoplite shield, bloody big spear and plate on > exposed locations). According to available info, the tactics and weaponry of the two is substantially similar. > Obviously these heavy hoplite units need to be supported > by lighter more mobile infanty (militia peltasts) and also missile troops > (bow armed infantry and light cavalry), This might be obvious, but it took the Greeks a long time to think it up. I think the Sun Domers rely fairly heavily on heavy infantry. Even militia units would generally be used in a similar role, since they are eqipped in the same way. The Sun Domers have no cavalry to speak of, though this isn't true for other Solar types. > I do not see the SDers as using heavy cavalry Indeed, not having any horses is a bit of a setback in this area. > For the Lunars I would use Republican Romans with the three way mix of > Hasta, Princeps and Triarii (have I got any of these right?) supported by > Velites (peltasts) and other exotica. This gives the mixture of troop types > which can be seen around the empire and underpins the flexibility of the Lunar > military system. I think that Lunar pike-using formations are actually very similar to Sun Dome/other Yelmic "hoplites", and don't represent a significant advance on that particular troop type. But I agree that where the Lunars have the advantage is in a greater and better mix of troops. (Not least using formations of magicians...) Many will be of obviously "ethnic" origin, from assorted provinces and allies. > I am unconvinced about the ubiquity of the scimitar in the Lunar army. > Sure all the Officers wear them, but can you imagine close order infantry > using them? Perhaps a smaller sidearm is more usual among the heavy infantry, such as the kopi someone suggested. I'd think a fair bit of the infantry do use scimitars, though, simply because pike formations are too specialised to form the overwhelming part of the infantry. > I see expensive swords being used by cavalry and officers but > not by rank and file close order infantry. Spears are much cheaper and more > effective for close order troops. My idea about the lunars is that they > are the first people in the region to combine infantry and heavy cavalry. I don't think the Lunars have heavy cavalry. (This was Rome's weak spot, too.) With the odd exception like Lunarised animal riders, of course, and Carmanian "knights". Lots of light cavalry, certainly. > Dara Happans had NO cavalry only chariots (both heavy and light). > Yelmalians developed horse archers (or stole the idea from the Pentans) and > also used to use light chariots (ref: Yamsur & the Dragon...) Perhaps the > horse archers replaced the light chariots. There is no point in the using > heavy cavalry in Prax or near Esrolia so perhaps they have never developed it. I don't think one should exaggerate the difference between the Dara Happans and the Lunars as a whole. They are, after all, the backbone of the empire, not only in a literal geographic sense. > On the subject of Dara Happans I believe that the Assyrians or > Babylonians or Homeric Greeks are a good model. Heavy infantry armed with > spears supported by lighted troops with Chariots used as the mobile strike > force. And also the beards are a MUST. What you suggest I'd broadly agree with for Dawn Age Dara Happa, with chariots being usable in their broad flat plains, and playing much the same role as cavalry. After defeat by, and incorporation into, the Lunar forces, the chariots would have been mostly abandonned, as they'd be fairly use in the much rougher terrain met by the expanding Empire. The same factors would mitigate against the development of heavy cavalry, which one would otherwise expect. Bonus bogus analogy: unlike the Pentans, the Grazelanders seem to have significant infantry. I'd guess they were somewhat Persian in equipment and tactics. (One handed spear and shield, and very much second fiddle to the cavalry.) Alex. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex) Subject: Hrestoli. Message-ID: <9406191656.AA27293@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 19 Jun 94 16:56:17 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4670 Dave Cake: > Ok, the Hrestoli have one hierarchy for both temporal and spiritual > matters (in fact, like many earthly religion, they have difficulty telling > them apart). I posit that Bishops basically generally control a city (and its > cathedral), and the ranks above bishop (who control a larger area) and the > ranks below (generally control a small fief) are referred to most commonly by > their temporal rank, as they seldom officiate at services regularly. Just because the Hrestoli see Church and State as a single entity does nor mean that specialised offices cannot exist at all levels of society, combining temporal and spiritual powers to different degrees. There's probably an Archbishop (or whatever) for each part of the Kingdom, but in some areas he may have essentially only spiritual authority, with a number of "temporal" barons actually holding the land, while elsewhere, the Archbishop may be the ruling lord himself, and the local lords and bishops his direct vassals. On a smaller scale, one could imagine the same applying to lesser lords and clerics (of "Talar" rank, still, though). > Furthermore I posit that the Ecclesiarch (who nominally controls the > entire world) is higher than the king - but the Ecclesiarch has little > responsibility for temporal matters, while the king has much. I disagree with this, if only because we haven't heard of the Hrestoli "Ecclesiarch". Rulership is, after all, the special duty of of "Talar" class, though they continue to exercise religious powers and duties. The King may be seen as the embodiment of Hrestol himself, if the hints about his Sacred Kingship are anything to go by. I suspect the Loskalmi high council has two or three Archbishops on it, though. > What about Acolythists? They > could progress to Knight fairly quickly (using appropriate skills - Read/Write > or similar?) but would they still need to combat skills? Acolythists would progress to Knight with some Craft and some Lore skill (not necessarily Plant Lore). As for progessing to Wizard, it would depend on their Knightly post. Most of these will probably been actually or notionally martial, but may include:- Copyist (junior scribe) [90% in three of Write Western, Calligraphy, Speak Loskalmi/Seshnegi/Brithini]; Chorister [Sing, Play, Musical Lore, Compose, Orate]; Deacon [Human Lore, Speak Loskalmi, Orate, Religious Lore, Administration]; Bursar [Evaluate, World Lore, Legal Lore, Administration, Human Lore]; etc. > Th Hrestoli are very difficult to have as PCs as > written (ie the only people with a chance of getting to Knight are the > farmers) I think if you have a Hrestoli PC, the last thing you want is for him to _advance_, since your already modest freedom of action, particularly to adventure will become positively vanishing. Alex. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex) Subject: re: corn and other food stuff Message-ID: <9406191702.AA27348@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 19 Jun 94 17:02:40 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4671 Colin Watson: > Corn is corn. > *Sweet*corn is maize. Even an unreconstructed Old Worlder like me knows that sweetcorn is a _kind_ of maize, not a synonym for it. > Scottish (not Sartarite) crops: > I think it's the low temperature rather than lack of sunshine which restricts > Scottish crops: my wife's granny used to grow grapes and peaches in Orkney > (which is pretty far north); she used a greenhouse. I reckon a casting of > Bless Crops might do as good. I don't think so, myself; I know Joerg speaks of Bless Crops as an agricultural necessity in the same way as Anglian wheat farmers speak glowingly of nitrogenous chemical fertilisers, but note that all the spell is stated to do is guarantee an "average" yield of crops. Nothing is said about making ungrowable crops growable, or increasing the modal yield (though obviously it improves the mean...) But I agree that some kind of sunlight/heat increasing magic would do the job, though I don't think it's necessary in Sartar (not Scotland). > In prehistoric times it was apparently warm enough to grow wheat in Orkney. > Now it's too cold. Oats and barley only. Be fair, we are still only half way out the last ice age. > When the Game Police confiscate your motorbike; cast Mobility instead. Another born-again Mastakos herder, I see. I feel an Orlanthi recitation coming on... "And truly was the three-hooved sigh whole upon his breast." Alex. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex) Subject: Some replies. Message-ID: <9406191821.AA27805@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 19 Jun 94 18:21:57 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4672 Jonas Schiott: > Let's see... The standard myth has Eurmal giving Death to Humakt, who then > uses it on Gramps Mortal, right? Now, this is obviously the way _Humakti_ > tell it. But Peter's version is much more logical: _Eurmal_ is the first to > use Death, Humakt was just an onlooker. I don't know about more logical, but there's no reason some people, including some Humakti wouldn't tell it that way. After all, is Humakt Swordsman, or Sword, as someone recently asked. "Humakti don't kill people, people kill people." Colin Watson: > Alex (replying to Devin): > >All that we actually > >know to be required to get Axe Trance is that one be a Babs Initiate (or a > >suitable initiate), and that the local temple go for the idea. That She's > >sitting around in the GP personally vetting each application in detail is > >just One Man's Opinion. > Yes, but I think it's worthwhile for a GM to have a definite opinion on > this, one way or the other. Yeah, I think this is true. Or at least, it's almost inevitable from a practical point of view. Characters will tend to have their own views (to say nothing of their players...), and it's perfectly reasonable to let them cling to them, without spelling out the True Situation. Bryan J. Maloney, on leaving Heroquests. > Quitting Heroquesting: Practice heroquests, probably quittable. Real > down-n-dirty heroquests, about as easy to "quit" as "quitting" manual > control of a nuclear pile (and you're sitting on top of it). I suggest the reverse: since practice HQs are in the material plane, "quitting" them could prove... painful. (I may be possible to exit the ritual, I suppose, though you'd be stuck in the same mundane place, anyhow.) Quitting "real" HQs: if the ritual ends, then you're probably back on the mundane plane, where you started (or wherever). Unless: you're "engaged" with some nasty, or otherwise at a Critical Point; or you're such a Big Studdly Hero that returning to the mundane plane is difficult in itself, as you've become somewhat "native" to the HP. Alex. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex) Subject: More Hrestoli/Loskalmi ravings. Message-ID: <9406191921.AA27960@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 19 Jun 94 19:21:21 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4673 Graeme Lindsell: > The Loskalmi standing peacetime army numbers 55,000 (and we're told it's one > of the best in Glorantha). With a population of 3 200 000, plus whatever of > the 800 000 inhabitants of Junora are supporting them, plus whatever they can > recruit from Sog city (who will certainly ally with Loskalm rather than the > KoW), they could lose that army and replace it immediately (there are many > ex-soldiers in the higher bureuacracy to act as officers). Replace it with a mediocre bunch of soi-disant "knights" and other Horals of no particular martial virtue, yes. If the Loskalmi army were wiped out, they'd be in deep doo-doo. This could have deleterious effects on the "Loyalty" of Junora, though they'd hardly rush to join the KoW. > But we do know that Loskalm is one of the best organised nations on > Glorantha. Best organised for what? The only war they've fought in the last century was strolling in to western Junora, to (I'd estimate) zero resistance. cf. Austria, rather than Poland... > As for magic, the Hrestoli are the guys who started the Syndics Ban, and > are now robbing the Godplane for power. This is a synonym for "have HeroQuesters", not a unique qualification. > > I'd not snear at Zorak Zoran, Humakt, Polaris, Wachaza, Urox, and > >Cacodemon either, to name but a few. > But in war I'd support the homogeneous nation of militarist fanatics. In > comparison the KoW are a bunch of thugs. Provenly effective thugs, unlike Loskalm. There's a lot to be said for a bit of diversity in an army. Joerg Baumgartner: > How did you arrive at this number of 85,000? 420,000/5? Yup. See the G:G "occupation" table. Obviously not Gospel, but The Only Data Available, and an indication that "outnumbered ten to one" is a bit fishy. > Honour to all men, whatever his place? This sounds more like Rokari > doctrine to keep the serfs in their allotted places than like "let's > suppress our pagan farmers" Jonatela. It amounts to the same thing, doesn't it? Or are the Jonating modified Hrestoli, of some sort? > >> I'm not sure if their opinion > >> vis-a-vis the Rokari is the dire hatred of the Roman Catholic for the > >> Lutheran, or the relatively mild distaste of the Greek Orthodox for > >> the Roman Catholic. > > Something more like the first, I think. We're not talking about the > > odd "filoque" here or there. > I can buy this for the Rokari, but hardly for the Jonatings. Somehow I > have the impression that the Ecclesiarch in Southpoint thinks that the > Jonating way is the right attitude towards non-believers. I'm lost. Whose attitude to whom are you speaking of? The Loskalmi to the Jonatings? Not even printable, I'd imagine. Even (especially?) if they are "modified Hrestoli". > > I suspect this is a Joerg "Nya!", but at any rate, I'll bite: Prince is a > > title, not a caste description. > Ok, but the title is one exclusively related to the ruler caste. I think > that "ruler" or "lord" in Brithini is called "talar", but for the Western > colonies we can assume a considerable change of language over the (3000?) > generations in the pre-Dawn (after I Fought We Won, according to Uz Lore). Persumably all Princes are Talar, but I doubt all Talar are Princes... I'd don't think "Prince" is a modification of "Talar", since he's variously referred to as both. But one or both could pertain only to the caste system as (however) it existed _before_ his own reforms. Or whatever. Alex. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson) Subject: Hrestoli women Message-ID: <9406192037.AA28231@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 19 Jun 94 20:37:25 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4674 I state, discussing Sandy's many-classes-for-Hrestoli women idea: > >Otherwise, an inevitable consequence seems to > >be that some low-class men will end up married to high-class women. Graeme Lindsell: > If there is only one female class then there are no high class women > ie class is a matter relevant only to men, all women are members of > the one class. Yup, that's what I was suggesting/supporting, in contravaridistinction to what Sandy was saying. (For the Hrestoli, that it.) You appear to be confusing me and my target. For the Rokari, I still like the idea of four separate castes. But possibly this is four _female_ castes, though in one-to-one correspondance to the "standard" ones, and interpreted in a somewhat similar, but distinct. way. Perhaps female "farmers" weave and spin; female "warriors", minor religious or bureaucratic flunkies; female "wizards" are nuns, Xemela acolytes, and other assorted female "clerical" (but non-priestly) roles, while female "lords" do all the assorted things noble women throughout history have done (making "not a whole lot" a feasible, if not favoured option). Alex.