From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 21 Jun 1994, part 4
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From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172)
Subject: blank lands
Message-ID: <01HDRIQ5EN4UQWX1YB@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: 20 Jun 94 06:22:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4689
- Joerg asks about the viability of eliminating blank lands
When blank lands first appeared (way back in Griffin Mountain), I
thought the idea was a good one. You could play in Balazar, move off
into a "published" area like the Lunar Empire, or create your own not-
for-publication bit for your personal campaign in an area like Garsting.
We have since seen Balazar turned into a Blank Land and a whole group
added as part of the Genertela pack. Of course, we keep getting
references to primitive Balazar, to Rigtaina the Hunting Nymph, to the
rivalry between the Telmori and the Dog-people of Balazar, etc. So much
for a blank land! (And to a minimal extent Garsting was subject to this
in the History of the Lunar Empire where a couple of cities sacked are
mentioned and cities are shown on the maps of the empire.)
One reason, though, that I decided to develop in Imther was that it was
next to a Blank Land. I can say that a Common Event is a raid from
Garsting without worrying about who they actually are (of course, the
fact that there's a lot of woods between Garsting and the Imtherian
population centers helps here). If this material is ever published, GMs
can use Garsting as they will--friend or foe, place to venture into
without fear of being Gregged, etc.
So I still like the idea of the blank land and leaving Garsting as one.
What I suggest is that we develop Jarst. In my campaign the two are
culturally the same (hence the more or less common name), but
politically opposed (usually), though they almost always unite to fight
off the horse nomads. If Jarst is there, then it can be used by those
GMs who want to extend their campaign into Garsting.
Now, on the other hand, I believe strongly that Balazar should be
restored to its original form. FREE BROTHER DOG NOW!
--Harald
---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Cults; Ralios passes; Sumerians; king names
Message-ID: <199406201615.AA03385@radiomail.net>
Date: 20 Jun 94 16:15:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4690
Colin Watson said
>Gods supply magic when they're worshipped correctly; not because they like you.
> ... The priests have control over who gets into the cult; it's largely
>a cultural thing.
In my PenDragon Pass game, the Religion skill (which is deity-specific)
indicates how well you know the prayers and rituals of the religion. You
can get a POW check by making this roll. The priests test for the five cult
virtues, and these are cultural (Chalana Arroy can have different virtues
depending on where she's worshipped).
Joerg said
>Alakoring Dragonbreaker takes his war against the dragons and
>dragonfriends from Ralios to Aggar and Holay. Since the route through
>Dorastor was firmly shut at the end of the Second Age, he either must
>have used High Llama Pass (an unlikely route to take with an army) or
>he crossed the Rockwoods directly into Aggar.
"Alakoring took his war" -- not necessarily his army! Alakoring could have
travelled on foot the long way to Aggar and Holay and started raising
rebellion against the EWF.
Or, from Wyrm's Footnotes 13: Alakoring "was in the army which flew over
the Rockwoods to fight the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. He became prominent
while living in Aggar, where he settled and raised a family, always
fighting the Empire."
>A question of appeal to all the Gloranthan RuneQuesters out there: can
>we make away with the concept of Blank Lands by now?
The concept was, use these areas and we won't Greg you. I wouldn't be
surprised if many people would still appreciate this. It's unfortunate in
some ways that Balazar is translucent rather than opaque...
Sumerian Thought:
In the excellent novel Snow Crash, the Sumerians _didn't_ think quite like
we do... And I saved an article from the Chrstian Science Monitor 5Jan94,
about the work of Lucio Gaidorou-Astori, who studied Mesopotamic stone
tablets and discovered a proof of the Pythagorean Theorem that "proceeded
from a different way of thinking from that of ancient Greece." "What
motivates [Gaidorou-Astori] is the investigation of another, arlier way of
thinking."
In general, I agree the ancients were an awful lot like us. But I suspect
much of the mindset was different. Pendragon has some information on this.
re "Orlando" vs "Orlanth:"
You guys certainly have logic on your side. And if you'd said all this
before, rather than just after, I'd started a Ralios campaign, I'd be
swayed. I don't want to change now. "Orlando" doesn't really fit with the
names I've been using; "Orlan" or possibly "Orlant" fits better.
So would other Lightbringers have different names in your scheme?
---------------------
From: jpolk@csc.com (James Polk)
Subject: Misc Replies
Message-ID:
Date: 20 Jun 94 16:18:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4691
Well, I am really far behind on reading the Daily, so please forgive these
comments to week (two week?) old items.
Colin Watson writes in X-RQ-ID: 4570
"Remember, as a result of the Compromise, that the Gods have no free will.
They're not omniscient either. They can't read your mind. So long as you
carry out the correct rituals etc, they will respond accordingly "giving"
you magic. This response to worship is like a reflex. They don't choose
who is "worthy" and who is not. That kind of decision is in the hands of
the priests of the cult. It is the priests who choose who should be
initiated.(And they are fallible.) Once you're initiated you've pretty
much got it made."
Hey folks, I think I found a Mostali! After all, reflex action,
no free will, mechanical responses - all this sounds like World Machine
talk to me.
Somehow, though, I can't see it. If all decision-making ability was taken
from the gods by the Compromise, then how does one explain the events
connected with the Lunar Goddess? How does one explain the destruction of
the (much-abused by RQ Daily writers) God Learners? And what makes you
think a Troll could become a Yelmalian simply by performing normal
iniation rituals? (These aren't rhetorical questions; I really would like
to hear your reasons.)
-----
Nick Brook directs in X-RQ-ID: 4581 -
"(Or, better still: tell us something else interesting about New Pelorian)."
Even though your comment wasn't directed to me, I'm going to answer anyway.
I have always seen New Pelorian as the great mongrel, expressive (and
liberating?) language of Glorantha. Formed from parts of the languages of
Peloria ("Old Pelorian"), Carmania, Dara Happa, etc., it provides myriad
ways of expressing shades of meaning. I have never felt it to be
constructed with ulterior motives, but as a natural consequence of the
history of the Lunar Empire.
---------------------
From: jonas.schiott@vinga.hum.gu.se (Jonas Schiott)
Subject: The 'impassable' Rockwoods
Message-ID: <9406201654.AA02189@vinga.hum.gu.se>
Date: 20 Jun 94 18:59:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4692
Joerg:
>Once again I want to explore the passes in the Rockwood Mountains
>between Corolaland and Halikiv in Ralios and Aggar and Skanthiland in
>southern Peloria.
You mean you've been there before?:--)
>Uz Lore tells us on p.29 that the Halikiv trolls "raided the humans of
>the Aggar region so continually that it was nearly abandoned by them"
>early in the Third Age.
We've always assumed the Halikiv trolls have tunnels _under_ the mountains,
both Rockwood and Mislari (that's how the PCs in our campaign got to the EW
from Ditali, but I digress...). Can't recall if this is supported anywhere.
Probably not.
>Alakoring Dragonbreaker takes his war against the dragons and
>dragonfriends from Ralios to Aggar and Holay.
Did he have an _army_, or was it just him and his trusted companions? If
the later, I don't believe flying that distance would be much trouble for
an Orlanth Hero like him. If the former, perhaps he wasn't _from_ Halikiv
(as per Wyrm's Footnotes), but still had good connections there?
Sandy:
>'Tis like this. The western "bulge" of the Rockwoods, just
>north of Sir Ethilrist's territory, where the Northern Rockwoods and
>Southern Rockwoods meet, is lower to the ground and more passable
>than most of the Rockwoods
OK, this explains the trolls, but Alakoring (and Ethilrist?) would still
have to get past _them_. Which requires a poltical explanation, not a
geographical one...
>(I know of no travels from Wenelia to
>Ralios, for instance).
Now you do. :-):-)
( Jonas Schiott )
( Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria )
( Goteborgs Universitet )
---------------------
From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: One word: Lokmaydism
Message-ID: <9406201716.AA14879@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk>
Date: 20 Jun 94 18:16:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4693
____________
Devin writes:
>Gods cannot invasively read the minds of worshippers, but they CAN,
>over a period of time, by observing rituals, tell whether an initiate is
>truly devout.
Over the weekend I decided to have a browse through King of Sartar to see if
I could find any good precedents for cynical worship. The book virtually
fell open at the section on The Gbaji War and, lo and behold, here we have
Lokamayadon, High(est) Priest of Orlanth, who decided to screw Orlanth
completely by collaborating in the construction of the new god, Gbaji.
[Ok, maybe it's debatable whether he was a True Priest Of Orlanth or not;
but he was certainly well-into the cult.]
Along with worshippers of other cults Lokamayadon used his magic ( =Orlanth's
magic?; what other magic would he have?) in direct opposition to Orlanth's
best interests. He wanted people to worship Gbaji.
"He forbade all ancient rites of Orlanth. Whenever the elders attempted to
initiate new boys, they were all killed. Lokamayadon tried to slowly strangle
Orlanth to death in this way."
[He would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for a pesky kid by the
name of Harmast Barefoot. Harmast was a Hero (in the mold of Luke Skywalker)
who was the first in a generation to be initiated into the true rites of
Orlanth by (Obi Wan) Vargast Two-ring. Vargast was subsequently slain by
Darth... er... I mean Lokamayadon.
With the knowledge gained, Harmast embarked upon the first mortal LBQ.
Where Orlanth had sought to recover the unjustly-slain Yelm; Harmast sought
to recover all those good Orlanthi who had been unjustly-slain by Lokamayadon.
Harmast returned with Arkat. I like to think that Arkat here represented
the avenging spirits of all those dead Orlanthi (Ar-kat = "Our-cult"). Not
surprisingly, when Gbaji met his own creating-force he self-destructed.]
But I digress...
The point is: would Orlanth let things progress as far as they did if he had
any choice in the matter? It seems to me that Lokamayadon managed to
successfully dupe the cult of Orlanth to the point that he got right to the
top. Then he grossly abused his position and nearly destroyed the cult.
And he wasn't on his own; there were other Orlanthi involved in creating Gbaji
too.
So I think the judgement of whether an initiate/priest is "truly devout" is
made by the cult, not the god, and there is a chance that the cult will
make a mistake.
Having been caught out once, I'd imagine the Orlanthi are pretty wary of
falling for the same trick again. Lokmaydism is considered evil and chaotic
(and therefore presumably punishable by death).
__
Ah well, apologies for the scholarly wibble. The Doc said if I roll 2 percentile
dice every four hours the symptoms should pass in a coupla days. :-)
___
CW.
---------------------
From: mmlab!cookec%max.mml.mmc.com@uunet.uu.net (Chris Cooke)
Subject: any ideas?
Message-ID:
Date: 20 Jun 94 17:41:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4695
I'm looking for some input, I had a situation arise from last wed's game
I'd like suggestions on.
Rom (initiate of SB) was in combat with a Chaos 'gator, Andara (initiate of
CA) used her sleep on the creature Rom was in combat with(loosing badly too)
and succeeded. Even when it was obvious the creature was helpless and above
her protests, Rom killed it. They both feel they acted within their cult
guidelines. Rom killed a creature under her protection(ala sleep spell),
other then withholding healing (and reporting it to her High Healer) what can
she do?
Can they reslove this? Rom feels he's done nothing wrong, the rest of the
party is just blowing it all off. "We have plenty of healing don't worry
about her. She'll get over it and if not, who cares."
They are in the Devils swamp, searching for the remains of a Kahn-wanna-be who
failed during his testing. I'd like to build her character up but not as an
obvious GM ploy.
I've set up cult/race incompatibilities on purpose in the past with accaptable
outcomes for both sides but it looks like they are just going to ignore Andara
except when they need her. Her player has already expressed an interest in a
different character to keep this from happening again. I want to keep the CA
and encourage more then just Hack-n-Slash. Ex ADnDers... *SIGH*
any suggestions on outcomes? possible resolutions? should she have known
better?(it had already been identified as Chaotic by the Storm Kahn with them)
How can he make contrition?(should he?) Bear in mind they will be in the
swamp a while yet(with an assult on the fort at Ogre Knoll yet to come) so
Andara won't be able to report to her High Healer for a while yet.
As a general rule, how would the CA at the Block deal with similer problems?
--
/> Chris Cooke
//
(//////[O]>=========================================-
\\
\> cookec@mml.mmc.com
---------------------
From: Michelle_Ringo@ed.gov (Michelle Ringo)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 20 Jun 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <9405207721.AA772144718@ed.gov>
Date: 20 Jun 94 18:38:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4696
Cullen writes -- "I don't think I'd find RPGs interesting at
all if it weren't for the chance to try out new sets of
beliefs"
Devin writes -- There are differences in the trappings of
ancient vs modern life. And discussion of diffences between
Glorantha not being a clone of Ancient Earth.
These comments help support my theme which is that this
entire Heort world being discussed is extremely sexist and
unpleasant. Creating an entire group of cultures where no
woman (that I have met) would want to play (if they followed
the role of women recently outlined here) is IMO a bad idea.
Much of the discussion speaks to the heart of Medieval
European and all Oriental history with regards to the
treatment of women, howeve, I am lead to wonder if any of
you have any women playing in your campaigns. I find the
entire culture totally unappealing to play in as a woman.
"Slave Girls of Gor" and "My Life Three Steps Behind my
Husband/Father/Brother" is extremely limiting. Yes, male
dominance and oppression of women existed on earth
historically. For example, Byzantine society simply
numbered there daughters Prima, Secunda, Tertia, etc., due
to their lack of value. Nevertheless, I would like to think
that Glorantha could incorporate our more modern ideas
(sometimes fantasies) about women being heroines,
sorcoresses, knights, etc. in Gloranthan society. Why not
expand the possible roles available to women beyond Wife of
Knight, Daughter of Wizard and not make a separate sex/caste
classification.
---------------------
From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Re: He knows when you are sleeping, he knows when you're awake...
Message-ID: <9406201734.AA14908@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk>
Date: 20 Jun 94 18:34:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4697
_________________
Martin points out:
> no mortal can know the mind of a god.
Sure, but the bottom line is that GMs are not (Gloranthan) mortals.
___
CW.
PS. No (Gloranthan) god can know the mind of a mortal. (IMHO)
---------------------
From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: The basic heroquest
Message-ID: <9406201757.AA24464@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 20 Jun 94 07:57:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4698
Okay, here is the Generic Heroquest:
The Bad Thing happens.
The Heroes vow to correct the Bad Thing.
The Heroes prepare/are prepared to Go Forth.
The Heroes Meet a Guardian.
The Heroes Get Past the Guardian.
The Heroes Go to the Far Lands.
The Heroes Encounter Lesser Threat(s).
The Heroes are Tested/Tempted.
The Heroes Get The Cure.
The Heroes Make the Return.
The Heroes Meet the Opposer of Knowledge.
The Heroes Overcome the Bringer of Ignorance.
The Heroes Return to the Mortal World.
The Heroes Spread their Gift.
The Bad Thing is stopped.
It isn't the 100% perfect outline of the Generic Heroquest, but it is pretty
close to what I've read.
---------------------
From: Michelle_Ringo@ed.gov (Michelle Ringo)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 20 Jun 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <9405207721.AA772145629@ed.gov>
Date: 20 Jun 94 18:53:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4699
Henk - Please delete my message sent just prior to
this as it contains an error. Thank you.
Cullen writes -- "I don't think I'd find RPGs interesting at
all if it weren't for the chance to try out new sets of
beliefs"
Devin writes -- There are differences in the trappings of
ancient vs modern life. And discussion of diffences between
Glorantha not being a clone of Ancient Earth.
These comments help support my theme which is that this
entire Hrestoli/Rokari world being discussed is extremely
sexist and unpleasant. Creating an entire group of cultures
where no woman (that I have met) would want to play (if they
followed the role of women recently outlined here) is IMO a
bad idea.
Much of the discussion speaks to the heart of Medieval
European and all Oriental history with regards to the
treatment of women, howeve, I am lead to wonder if any of
you have any women playing in your campaigns. I find the
entire culture totally unappealing to play in as a woman.
"Slave Girls of Gor" and "My Life Three Steps Behind my
Husband/Father/Brother" is extremely limiting. Yes, male
dominance and oppression of women existed on earth
historically. For example, Byzantine society simply
numbered there daughters Prima, Secunda, Tertia, etc., due
to their lack of value. Nevertheless, I would like to think
that Glorantha could incorporate our more modern ideas
(sometimes fantasies) about women being heroines,
sorcoresses, knights, etc. in Gloranthan society. Why not
expand the possible roles available to women beyond Wife of
Knight, Daughter of Wizard and not make a separate sex/caste
classification.
Four classes for women where none of them doing anything
except traditional medieval roles of women while their men
go out and do everything is very unappealing. First, of all
women can and do run Farms. There is no reason to exclude
women from the wizard class, since historically nothing
would bar them from casting magic and in Glorantha nothing
previously barred them from casting magic. Women warriors
flourish throughout the world of Glorantha and there is no
reason for them not to flourish in Rokari/Hrestoli.
A caste system based on what one's parents were can apply
equally to men and women without redefining the castes. In
India you belong to the caste of your father. Since this is
a patriarchal society this is one option. Each caste level
has rank therefore there would be only special circumstances
(such as money, power, or property) for reasons to marry
outside a caste level. All of this can be done without
limiting the actual roles available to women.
---------------------
From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Re: divination to check potential cult members
Message-ID: <9406201820.AA15182@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk>
Date: 20 Jun 94 19:20:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4700
______
Robert wonders:
>What about the use of divination to check potential cult members? Chalana
>Arroy uses (used? - RQII) to check whether you were really a pacifist and
>would renounce violence. Given that the candidate must open themselves to
>the God for this to work, I think that the God *can* know the innermost
>workings of someone.
Ok, to tell the truth, I just don't like cast-iron divinations of any sort.
Where's the mystery?
I'd say the info from the divination is just based on what the god usually
knows (mostly from worshippers prayers). If the Divination gives you a
"good reference" then you get accepted. A bad reference, or too-little info
would result in rejection.
Of course, the cult will *say* that all their divinations are 100% accurate.
But then, we know what "all" means to an Orlanthi.
All very much IMHO.
___
CW.
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Goddess Switch
Message-ID:
Date: 20 Jun 94 18:53:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4701
Does anyone have information where the Goddess Switch occurred,
and what deities were involved?
Martin Crim says it involved Peloria.
The AiG authors state that the Shadowlands (Kethaela) were involved.
Glorantha Book (from G:CotHW) speaks about spirits of the land.
So what is this really about?
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de