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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 21 Jun 1994, part 6
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From: vladt@interaccess.com (Kevin Rose)
Subject: Fooling Gods and Nazis
Message-ID: <199406210305.WAA22709@home.interaccess.com>
Date: 20 Jun 94 16:59:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4710

Martin: "He knows when your. . ."
Some old Wyrms footntes are so useful . . .  How everyone can naturally 
ignore this
for their game, and I'm not going to claim that Greg played this way, but WF 
12, 
P 19, "The knowlage which the Rune Lord or Rune Priest gives to the god must be 
voluntered by the Rune level.  It is possible to keep private thoughts 
private from 
the god.  It is not possible to keep one's thoughts ABOUT the god private, for 
positive or negative.  A diety will know when a Rune Master loses faith, plots 
againt him, or whatever." Emphasis in orginal.

I always assumed that when an illuminate started playing fast and loose with 
the 
cult he was a Rune Master of someone would notice.  Not the god, as presumably
illumination makes you able to fool the god to a certain extent, but someone.  
Even so, Humakt would probably notice if his sword starts creating zombies.  
You can explain a lot with "For your greater glory Lord" and a convicing smile, 
but there comes a time. . .
     The fact that you are immune to the spirit of retribution doesn't mean you 
can't be ejected and have all your rune magic go one-use.


Paul: "Like Naxi Germany Did vs. Stalinist Russia."
Numbers might have been somewhat on the side of the Russians, but wealth wasn't.
Germany and Russia had the same steel production befor the war started.  Germany
captured a significant fraction of the total Russian industrial capability 
but the 
Russians still produced at least twice as many tanks as the Nazis.  German 
was a 
richer country than Russia at the start of the war. But the Germans didn't 
go to a 
full wartime economy until 1944.  The Russians were desperate and knew they 
had to 
prevail and were willing to make whatever sacrifices were needed.  (And 
those who 
were not not willing and got caught were assigned to assault battalions who 
could 
be motivated by the NKVD's heavy machine guns at their backs...)

One significant point is that a fast moving army advances at maybe 5km per 
day on 
average.  This gives the Herstoli months to replace losses and form defences.  
And this might be where the comparisons with Russia more appropriatly come into 
place.  For example, the 100 years war was not decided by the horrible French 
losses at Crecy, Agincourt and Verneuil.  Not a totally valid comparison, 
I'll admit, 
due to geography and the minor point that these battles spanned 80 years.  A 
better 
example might be the Second Punic War.    
(Yes, the Mongols moved at 50km/Day, but they were unique.  Not rare, but 
unique)

Kevin Rose


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From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
Subject: RE: RQDaily jun 20,1994
Message-ID: <940620231331408@thuemmel.com>
Date: 21 Jun 94 11:18:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4711

N> Nick : in X-RQ-ID: 4662
N> But I think that if a god's attention were to be drawn to an
N> individual worshiper's worthiness (or lack of it), he might be able
N> to do something special about it. About as rare and dramatic as
N> Divine Intervention, maybe (and moreover, Priests and Lords are more

How about every time one gets a successful DI the god's response is
appropriate to the behavior of the individual...  but then wouldn't
those who misbehave refrain from trying for DI?  Hmm...
_____________________________________
D> Devin : in X-RQ-ID: 4664

D> I find it rather bizarre that you ASSUME that I know nothing about
D> ancient history. I am not saying that I do or don't, but I have never

Well, just to judge from your ideas, I also assumed you hadn't studied
much history.  Of course here in the US, schooling only include US
history in most places (as a requirement) and our history isn't very
long (since we don't really study the natives).

D> dealt with ancient history much on this list because I want to get
D> away from the Glorantha as Ancient Earth shtick. Why not ask if I
D> have read about Sumerians rather than assuming the worst?

Then why were YOU comparing ancient and medieval peoples to Glorantha
peoples and saying Gloranthan peoples are more devout.  If you don't
want to make a comparison-- fine don't make one, but don't expect to
make wrong-headed statements about history and not get corrected.

D> I think you will find a lot of people who will support my contention
D> that, while yes, there are differences in the trappings of ancient vs
D> modern life (of course) that the "human predicament, and the way
D> humans react to their environment and condition has not changed all
D> that much. After all, we study history (at least in part) in order to
D> gain insight into our own lives.

I hope this isn't actually the case...  Ancient peoples differed from us
at a very profound level.  Not biologically, but that isn't necessary.
People aren't born with many preconception about the world, so almost
all our notions about the world are cultural.

Haven't you ever heard a discussion between an Atheist and a Baptist
Fundamentalist?  The basic approach of these two persons is different at
a very deep level, yet they come from what is supposed to be the same
culture.  The discussion generally breaks down fairly quickly because
they generally can't seem to agree on a basis for discussion (largely
because they don't share even remotely the same epistemology).

Why would we study ancient peoples if they were just like us?  It is so
much easier to get information about people around us, who are
presumably even more similar than ancient peoples?  We study history for
precisely the opposite reason, because of those differences.  History
helps us to see OUR root assumptions about the nature of the world.
_______________________
M> Martin : in X-RQ-ID: 4665

M> Their liturgy is in a Praxian style, and they call their god by a
M> name in Praxian which I leave to someone else to make up.

Yamalo? Yammal? Yelamo? Emalo? Amalo? Alamo ;^)?

By the way, I think your CAMSWELL stuff is excellent.
__________________________________
J> Joerg : in X-RQ-ID: 4666

J> Hmm. Neither the Walhalla myths nor the Islamic paradise are elements
J> of western monotheistic religions, but to the typical member of these

Islam isn't a western monotheistic religion?  It's about as western in
origin as Judaism or Christianity, and a bit more monotheistic than the
latter.  They did capture just about all of N. Africa which goes further
west than Europe, and of course Spain...
_____________________
A> Alex : S>> Sandy : in X-RQ-ID: 4675

S>>   I face the contradictions head-on. I neither deny the
S>> Monomyth's truth, nor do I deny the truth of local variations. So
S>> there. My personal beliefs are full of contradictions -- why can't
S>> Gloranthan beliefs be the same?

A> Having two of the Monomyth's Fundamental Stages in the wrong order
A> seems like more than a Little Local Difficulty.  You mean it's
A> "true", as a generalization, or that it has fundamental truth, even
A> where some people deludedly believe differently?

How would the Pamalteans (or the Generteleans) be sure in what order it
happened?  We're talking myths here about stuff that happened a long,
long time ago.  Unless you're positing that things on the hero plane
happen in an nice orderly manner, how will these people know?  When a
Dorradi goes on a Hero Quest he experiences events in the order his
myths
tell him to expect, same as for an Orlanthi

Anyway, this all happened before time began and involves chaos, why
worry if its a bit confused?

Cullen

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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: A synopsis of the history of Heortland in the 2nd Age
Message-ID: 
Date: 21 Jun 94 04:03:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4712

This is a spin-off of my discussion with Alex on Heortland. I thought it 
might be of general interest.


Copyright June 1994 by Joerg Baumgartner, all rights reserved, etc.

The Second Age in Heortland

After Gbaji was born and had subdued Kethaela, there was no educated 
priesthood of Orlanth left, only old men with dim memories how things were 
when they were young, more than 55 years ago (380 Dragon Pass and Kethaela 
were conquered by Gbaji, around 440 Arkat freed it, in the meantime 
Lokamayadon disconnected Orlanth from his worshippers). Harmast had to 
heroquest to refind the Orlanthi truths. His knowing companion on these 
heroquests discovered a different truth from that Harmast had found, the 
truth shown by Arkat, and the magic of the wizards. Harmast disagreed with 
both Arkat and his knowing companion, and went on a heroquest again, and 
again a western, sorcery-using hero was summoned by Harmast. Again Harmast 
made the Orlanthi follow such a hero, and they ended up populating Fronela, 
next to the wizards' land of Akem.

With Arkat there came wizards and knights into Theyalan lands. Arkat made 
his followers mingle, so that they could learn from each other, as he had 
learned from all of them.

In Heortland both Hrestoli knights and wizards and rebels from the 
mountains enter the flat land with the cities. The rebels are impressed 
by the magical and martial prowess of the Hrestoli, the greatest epitome 
of the contemporary fighters being Arkat, who had just - with the help of 
Harmast - proven that it was possible to combine the fighting style, magic 
and gouvernment of the West with the traditional gods they have heard about 
from their elders (although never experienced, because the ban on 
heroplane contacts posed by Lokamayadon prevented religious experience and 
_real_ worship, allowing empty ceremonies only).

The city dwellers and peasants subdued by Palangio are even worse off - 
they have been indoctrinated wth the lies of Gbaji and Lokamayadon. (If 
you think this is not a problem, I can tell you about a disturbing tendency 
in the former DDR to glorify the "socialist" system now they have 
experienced both sides of capitalism and democracy. A very similar case...)

Several solutions in for of new religions were feasible, but only Arkat 
offered the return to piety past Gbaji's delusions called Illumination. So 
the Hendriki rebels and the city dwellers of soutern Heortland turn to 
Arkat's creed, and have his companions teach them.

On his further conquest of Gbaji's lands Arkat deviates from ideals he had 
impersonated and adapts to his foe to overcome him. Harmast (the driving 
force behind reinstalling the old gods) looks for help of a Westerner 
again, even the grand old man of Orlanth-worship relies heavily on Malkioni 
influences.

To make a long tale short, Arkat destroys Gbaji and erects the Dark Empire. 
He rewards his staunchest allies with leading positions in his empire.

The Hendriki succeed to get upper water by reproducing the Theyalan 
adoption of Western ways in Ralios, and get to play a ruling role 
under the Only Old One, just as the Theyalans in Ralios get uner Arkat 
himself. Harmast's former knowing companion after a while leaves Arkat and 
codifies the religion of the Hendriki rulers.

For the next 300 years the Dark Empire and its religion dominated Kethaela, 
although from the land, under the eyes of the Malkioni Bishopric of Nochet, 
a new force rose in Dragon Pass - the Wyrms' Friends.

Another time the Orlanthi creed of Dragon Pass was first threatened, then 
changed into something quite different. That of the Hendriki did not 
change drastically, thanks to the protection of the Only Old One, the 
land god of earth and darkness worshipped by all his subjects. Conventional 
Orlanthi did change, strongly.

By 740, the Return to Rightness Crusade had first joined Slontos to their 
Empire, then crushed Paslac, the last ruler of the Dark Empire. 40 more 
years they need to pacify the land and to shatter the organized Stygian 
Church there. Again the Only Old One prevented the Aeolian creed to be 
strongly influenced.

When the God Learners invaded western Kethaela, they upset the bishopric 
of Nochet, and inserted some different ideas into the remaining Malkioni 
sects of Kethaela, but again the Aeolians got off lightly because the EWF 
intervened on behalf of their ally, the Only Old One.

The next assault on Kethaela was more insiduous, and the southern cities 
of the land fell to their vile seduction of knowledge. This time the 
Hendriki found themselves in the middle of the battle, and suffered quite 
heavily from the ten years of the Machine war. Yet they and their allies 
from all neighbouring nations managed to overcome the atrocity of the 
Clanking City, and came out of it spiritually strengthened. So were the 
other nations.

The Closing of the Oceans came less as a curse to the Hendriki. The only 
city to lose status was Karse. The positive effect of the Closing was that 
the God Learners couldn't come from the sea any more.

The growing unrest in the EWF did shake the Hendriki society once, when 
the corrupt Third Council leaders were eliminated. Yet the Only Old One 
and his subjects remained faithful to old alliances and marched to their 
help against the True Golden Horde. The Dragonkill War and the subsequent 
Inhuman Occupation forced refugees from Dragon Pass into Kethaela, and with 
the flower of manhood eliminated, did reduce the importance of the Aeolians 
versus the newcomers significantly.

With the arrival of the Pharaoh and the discovery of human inhabitants of 
Kerofinela these dissenters found an outlet for their ways, and the most 
troublesome emigrated into Dragon Pass.


-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

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From: lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au (Graeme Lindsell)
Subject: Forward the Glorious Loskalmi Crusade!
Message-ID: <9406210422.AA08001@Sun.COM>
Date: 21 Jun 94 19:20:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4713

Paul Reilly writes:
>I agree that KoW will have great initial success due to their superior
>experience of actual battle, but that the numbers and wealth of Loskalm will
>tell.  Like Nazi Germany vs. Stalinist Russia.

 I don't see any real evidence that the KoW are particularly experienced
at large scale war. They've managed to take over the neighbouring citie
states, but these had just emerged from the Ban and 100 years of peace
with no possible threats. A 2-year old with an attitude and a particularly 
nasty rattle could probably have conquered them. The KoW could just as
easily be categorized as warriors who are extremely skilled at individual
combat, but not at war.

 Alex writes:
>I disagree with this, if only because we haven't heard of the Hrestoli
>"Ecclesiarch".
 
 You'll probably get this from everyone else, but read the section on 
Southpoint in the Fronela section of G:G Book 2. Eccles is mentioned
there. I agree that he probably isn't that important, though, given how
he's tucked away in the city descriptions.

>Replace it with a mediocre bunch of soi-disant "knights" and other Horals
>of no particular martial virtue, yes.

 Just like any other new army. If the experience of the last 200 years is
any indicator, for armies military skill is less significant than numbers 
and discipline. Leadership is another matter: I could well accept that
the lord Death on a Horse is a better general than Meriatan. Meriatan is
put in the Heroes section, and what we know of the futures of the
other heroes is pretty important, so I wouldn't write him off.

 People have said that Meriatans attitudes seem similar to the Nazis, but
I wouldn't be surprised to hear Jar-Eel say the same words.

>Best organised for what?  The only war they've fought in the last century
>was strolling in to western Junora, to (I'd estimate) zero resistance.

 What about the KoW? The only war we know they've fought was strolling into
Perfe, to (I'd estimate) zero resistance. They been fighting each other,
but I'm sure the Loskalmi do that all the time too.

As for how good the Loskalmi army is "The Loskalmi army is one of the
best in the world". Pretty unambiguous, I'd say. (I know, strange coming
from me, but yes, I do occasionally accept what the books say. I still
think they're fanatics, though). 

>Provenly effective thugs, unlike Loskalm.

 As I've said above, there isn't that much proof of their effectiveness.

> Obviously not Gospel, but The
>Only Data Available, and an indication that "outnumbered ten to one" is
>a bit fishy.

 The Only Data also includes the population figures, which put Loskalm's
pop at 3.2 million vs the KoW's 420 000. So it's only 8-1, I was including
Jonora and Sog. Anyway, the KoW couldn't send all those 85 000 out, some
of them have to stay home to oppress the peasants. The given Loskalmi
army does seem to be their mobile force, though. In fact, since none of
the KoW's serf's are able to fight, but all of Loskalm's male population
are theoretically capable of doing so, I think the situation is even more
unbalanced in Loskalm's favour.

 On the RQ4 list, Bryan Maloney just wrote that he has heard Greg say that
the KoW is the negative version of the Knights of Hrestol, so I expect
that Greg thinks (thought) they'll destroy each other.

 Seriously, the material we have on Loskalm and Fronela is so scanty that
a GM can put almost any interpretation on them, from Sandy's truly equal
Heaven on Glorantha with a cream puff army, to Nick's Nazis (which probably 
will get crushed anyway, since he doesn't like the Nazis much) to my pseudo-
communist near-modern nation state.

--
Graeme Lindsell a.k.a lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au
Research School of Chemistry, Australian National University, Canberra.
"I was 17 miles from Greybridge before I was caught by the school leopard"
Ripping Yarns - Tomkinson's Schooldays.

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From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Re: Hrestoli
Message-ID: <199406210535.NAA28572@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 21 Jun 94 21:45:22 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4714

Me responding to Alex responding to me
>>       Furthermore I posit that the Ecclesiarch (who nominally controls the 
>> entire world) is higher than the king - but the Ecclesiarch has little 
>> responsibility for temporal matters, while the king has much.
>
>I disagree with this, if only because we haven't heard of the Hrestoli
>"Ecclesiarch".  Rulership is, after all, the special duty of of "Talar"
>class, though they continue to exercise religious powers and duties.  The
>King may be seen as the embodiment of Hrestol himself, if the hints about
>his Sacred Kingship are anything to go by.  I suspect the Loskalmi high
>council has two or three Archbishops on it, though.
>
The Ecclesiarch lives at Southpoint, I quote from  G:CotHW, 
"Southpoint : this city is the home of the Ecclesiarch of the Hrestol sect,
who handles all theological matters relating to the Hrestol sect,  and
theoretically is the Supreme Authority over  all Malkioni churches. All the
Churches of Fronela acknowledge his supremacy"
        So the Ecclesiarch exists and is definately an important person
(note that this also implies that there is less friction between the
various forms of Fronelan Malkionism than we may have thought). I think
that the Ecclesiarch is the theoretical top of the Hrestoli hierarchy, like
the Pope. However you may be right about the King representing Hrestol -
perhaps the Ecclesiarch represents Malkion. In any case in many ways the
Ecclesiarch is less important (he doesn't directly control a large standing
army). 
        I not only assume that Archbishops are one the high council of
Loskalm, I like the idea that Hrestoli leaders are all to some extent both
temporal and spiritual leaders. Certainly I do not think that the Hrestoli
distinguish between temporal and religious law. Admirals are also chief
chaplains, Bishops are also the cathedral administrators and sit on city
councils. 

>> I can buy this for the Rokari, but hardly for the Jonatings. Somehow I 
>> have the impression that the Ecclesiarch in Southpoint thinks that the 
>> Jonating way is the right attitude towards non-believers.
>
>I'm lost.  Whose attitude to whom are you speaking of?  The Loskalmi to
>the Jonatings?  Not even printable, I'd imagine.  Even (especially?) if
>they are "modified Hrestoli".
>
No, they are suitably subservient modified Hrestoli. They are probably are
rife with heresy, but as long as they keep grovelling, and stay over there,
they are useful allies against the infidel. Sort of like the attitude the
Papacy often had towards Constantinople, or some of its outlying Patriarchs
(who were often rife with heresy). As long as the Jonatings admit the
Ecclesiarch is the boss, and as long as Loskalm has far more important
things to worry about and there are common enemies to fight, the Jonatelan
church are an arm of the true faith (admittedly many Hrestoli would be
shocked if they actually went to the place, but they are hardly likely to
change the Ecclesiarchs mind).
        Cheers
                Dave





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