From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 22 Jun 1994, part 2
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Teshnan deities
Message-ID:
Date: 21 Jun 94 20:24:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4726
Nils Weinander in X-RQ-ID: 4685 asks for my God Learning. Here we go.
> Teshnan society is divided into castes {I would like another
> word here, since caste is used for the westerners}, with
> different functions and cults.
I'd stick with caste, and call the Malkioni system classes.
To tie the castes to one of the positive three fire deities
seems a sensible idea.
I would use Buddhist India rather than Hinduist India, but I think
some kind of caste system doesn't really contradict this parallel.
> The Farmers worship
> Solf (Lodril) in his fertility aspect. Solf has spent his
> energies and is the epitome of laziness, but he still has
> the potential for volcanic activity, representing death as
> the end of life.
I doubt that a deity as negative as this is worshipped by the farmers.
Calyz is the more likely candidate to be the farming god.
> The Warriors
> worship Furalor, the Teshnan death goddess {Joerg, you are
> good at finding parallells between gods from different
> myths, have you found one for Furalor?}. Furalor is the
> deity of destructive fire, but death prepares for rebirth.
> The Warrior caste is the personification of the power of
> desctruction.
No, Nils. Furalor is not the goddess of warriors. Her role is more
that of Ty Kora Tek, the goddess of the halls of death, or her GRoY
equivalent Annara Gor, or that of Krarsht, the Hungry Jaw.
If you want a Solar figure from myth I have only Rausa, goddess of dusk
and keeper of the gates to Hell, as my closest guess.
I think Furalor and Solf are mainly appeased, not actively worshipped.
(Nevertheless there will be bacchanal festivals in honor to Solf, and
grim rites in honor to Furalor.)
The Warriors worship Solf, according to Genertela Book.
[The Brahmans]
> worship Somash (Yelm) as the balance who preserves the
> state of being against too strong dominance of creation or
> destruction. The teaching is that too much creative power
> will result in uncontrolled growth, called the Fiery Cancer.
> Too much destructive power will end with the end of the
> world in the Great Conflagration. The Sacred caste is the
> personification of the power of balance and preservation.
> {So there we have the indian "trinity": creation (Brahma),
> destruction (Shiva) and preservation (Vishnu).}
This balance stuff sounds more like Nysalor . Genertela Book throws
warriors and administrators into one cult. If you still want the Sacred
caste, let them worship Zitro Argon.
> {So there we have the indian "trinity": creation (Brahma),
> destruction (Shiva) and preservation (Vishnu).}
I'm not convinced.
> Old Sacred ones may retire from active life as monks and
> worship Zitro Argon (Dayzatar). Their goal is to achieve
> the spiritual purity needed to reach this aloof god. This
> is the only release from the cycle of reincarnation which
> all men are subject too.
Sounds quite like the Brahman caste to my uneducated guess about
the Indians.
> All castes worship Calyz, the firebringer, whom I see as
> a deified culture hero, who brought fire to Teshnos
> during the Darkness.
Calyz the Firebringer seems to be Eurmal and Lodril thrown into
one deity with the negative traits split off as Solf and the positive
ones retained.
> So, does this seem totally wrong?
Not totally wrong. Apart from my quibbles, I like it a lot.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Early and 1st Age Malkioni
Message-ID:
Date: 21 Jun 94 20:54:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4727
Paul Reilly in X-RQ-ID: 4704
> "Early" Malkioni means "pre-time". The Seshnegi had fallen away during
> several generations of post-Malkion, pre-Time ancestors. Fallen away from
> the pure teachings of Malkion, that is.
This still could have meant that they did practice Ancestor worship and
similar practises already then.
> I would guess that the Serpent Kings
> were pretty anti-Hrestol. They may have revered Malkion, but in an almost
> Pagan way, as an ancestor hero/Deity.
I had the impression that King Froalar welcomed the revelations of
Hrestol, ad that he actively supported his cause against both their
external enemy, the Basmoli, and their internal opposition, the
Zzaburi-adhering city-states of Arolanit.
I agree that Malkion-worship would have been pretty pagan before the
Jrusteli colonists launched the Return to Rightness jihad.
> Akem, on the other hand, converts to
> the pure Hrestoli faith (I think).
I wouldn't think so. Akem only was the first target of the Return to
Rightness movement. The ready acceptance of Talor and his Orlanthi
companions in the Gbaji wars and Syranthir's readiness to embrace the
local deities of Peloria are telling evidence IMO.
> The ancestor worship may have been fairly widespread - Carmanians have it,
> and all Malkioni have Saint's cults. I think ancestor worship segues into
> Saint cults very smoothly. ^ oops
Now this is a new edge to an old theme.
> About Saints: There would be several possible views on them.
> 1. They are ghosts, hanging around on the spirit plane, as in Ancestor
> Worship. Their Saintliness allows them to remain strong and conscious, not
> decaying.
> 1a. This could BE the Seshnegi "Ancestor Worship" that Joerg discusses
> above.
Nice twist. However I am not sure that the saints are like ghosts (or the
Vikings Box benign possession spirits).
> 1b. If you believe in a Transcendant God and in a Solace OUTSIDE of Glorantha,
> then Saints in this view are like bodhisatvas - they qualify for Solace/Nirvana
> but are deliberately hanging around (on the spirit plane in the Saints' case)
> to give help to others. Self-sacrificing.
What about Arkat? He has his own stellar body. But then he is the traitor.
> 1c. IF you believe in an Immanent God then the Saints are either mystically
> joined to God (but still able to operate semi-independently), or not. In
> the latter case see 1b above on sacrifice.
> 2. Saints are NOT ghosts, but are individuals in Solace in Glory, an
> extraworld paradise.
1.c or 2. was my interpretation so far. The term ghost only used in the
wider sense, IMO, as also CoP suggests.
> 3. Saints operate mystically and cannot be understood rationally. Somebody
> probably believes this too.
Does't sound like rationalist Malkioni to me. Maybe Valkaro's followers'
view?
> Note also that the Heroes of Valhalla aren't selected for 'goodness' but
> for fighting ability, and they are not being rewarded per se but are recruits
> for Ragnarok, after which they are gone, just like the gods. Not "heavenly
> reward" in the Christian sense.
No, goodness is measured as effectivity in fighting ability. In the
christian sense Walhalla is a most unheavenly reward. Muslim ideas of
heaven come closer to Walhalla than christian ideas, even medieval ones.
> Compare also many other cultures - my point was not that afterlives of
> heavenly reward are unknown or even uncommon but that they are far from
> universal. The standard cult format in the RQ rules makes it look like one
> of the main functions of any religion is to provide a cushy afterlife, when
> in fact many religions don't even address the issue.
Yet another case of God Learner influence?
The only Indo-European religions I know a great deal about are the Norse
and the Greek. The Norse afterlife has grisly Hel (Hell, as the Christians
renamed it) and the feasting Einheriar, while the Greek Hades is a very
bleak affair, but the demigods get invited to the Olymp.
But: both were recorded after the region had been overturned. The Achaean
Odyssee myth was recorded by Dorian-influenced Homer, and Snorre's Edda
was written in Christian Iceland. Neither is a contemporary version, so
we have no primary source about the beliefs of either heroic Greece or
Viking Norse. That afterlife was an issue of importance is shown by the
anecdote of the already converted Viking who refused to accept baptism
in order to share his afterlife with his family.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: Michelle_Ringo@ed.gov (Michelle Ringo)
Subject: What to do when the CA gets dissed
Message-ID: <9405217722.AA772245381@ed.gov>
Date: 21 Jun 94 22:36:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4728
Chris Cooke wrote about a problem with an SB killing a known
Chaos gator slept by a CA (therefore normally under her
protection). My readings of GoG indicate that all bets are
off in regards to protection of a creature of chaos for CA.
In our local game, if someone kills a creature under the
protection of a CA (who is not chaotic) all previous
healing from a CA is revoked. For some PCs this won't
matter, but for the one who just recently received ReGrow
Limb or Resurrection this is extremely significant. This
has effectively solved the problem for our various parties
when gaming with a CA which we did regularly. Another
option left open to the CA is to resurrect the one who has
been killed. We had a new PC (new gamer) who didn't fully
understand "this protection business" who slayed a non
chaotic creature slept by the CA. This new PC had never
received any CA healing, and thus suffered no harm. The CA
resurrected the non chaotic creature and apologized. And we
explained the possible future retribution to the PC (who
never did it again).
---------------------
From: grac@midway.uchicago.edu (Cullen Grace)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 21 Jun 1994, part 5
Message-ID:
Date: 21 Jun 94 21:30:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4729
Here's a fun question: What was the name of the Red Goddess in life, before
her apotheosis?
Cullen Grace
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re: Malkioni Virtues, Feminism.
Message-ID: <9406212141.AA02584@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 21 Jun 94 21:41:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4730
Paul Reilly here. A while back people were talking about the Malkioni
Virtues, and what they would be for each class. It just occurred to
me that the Cardinal Virtues match the Four Classes fairly nicely:
Temperance Farmers
Obviously a great society-imposed virtue for the Farmer is not wanting
too much.
Fortitude Knights
Obvious connection.
Prudence Wizards
Wizards are the guys who give Wise Counsel, right? They are cautious.
Justice Lords
The Lords have to balance the Prudent and Brave advice of their Wizards and
Knights and do what is Just.
I might add Mercy for Women if they are considered a separate class.
------
Re: Feminist Roles in Glorantha
The Lunars are quite feminist, especially after HonEel's Wane (5th Wane).
A lot of the other central Genertelan cultures are balanced or even strongly
feminist. (Esrolia, Tarsh Exiles, e.g.)
The Uz are matriarchal; males are often marginalized in their society.
Sandy can say something about Pamaltela and gender roles here. Or John Hughes.
The Ogres have female equality in strength and size, and the way we play them,
in cunning and treachery. Maybe even superiority... the females can kill off
males with impunity but the males can't kill off the females and breed.
Spider Hsunchen are probably "feminist" beyond belief.
I think that given these and other examples, it is OK to have a male
dominated society or several elsewhere on Glorantha. I have a friend who
likes to play a feminist character struggling against male oppression, he
even invented a cult for this purpose and got other people involved. If
there were no Malkioni or Dara Happans, someone who wanted to play a struggling
feminist would have to invent them.
There are some srong female roles available in the West. The village
witches who cure sicknesses are mentioned in Player's Book: Genertela. A
great little village campaign could be based on ignorant fanatical male clerics
trying to get rid of these women in a village. See "The Friar and the
Sorceress" for detailed plot ideas.
Even in the Earth's Middle Ages there were Western fighting women. See
"Arab Historians of the Crusades" for some evidence.
Hrestoli might or might not have female magicians, warriors, and rulers.
It's not established. A well written piece could turn the tide and
give us Abbesses and Prioresses of great reknown.
A woman could easily be a resistance leader in Jonatela. They worship
Ernalda there, y'know. Ernalda can turn to Maran Gor and Voria to
Babeester in the time it takes a knight to strike an unarmed priestess.
(Through DI at least)
Even in Seshnela I bet the nobles' wives would be fun to play.
And there are always outlaws. A woman barred from learning magic through
normal channels might find other ways to learn.
PS. Do the matriarchal societies breed "radical masculinists"? Are the Zorani
such a group?
- Paul R
---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Teshnos, Heroines, Loskalm (yawn)
Message-ID: <940621222647_100270.337_BHL31-2@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 21 Jun 94 22:26:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4731
_______________________
James Polk volunteered:
> I have always seen New Pelorian as the great mongrel, expressive (and
> liberating?) language of Glorantha ... a natural consequence of the
> history of the Lunar Empire.
Maybe it's so. I didn't say the New Pelorian Steering Committee performed
their grammatical nuance-shifting in public, did I?
Perhaps only the Illuminati *really* know what's going on...
____________
David Dunham recommended "Snow Crash" by Neal Stephenson. So do I. Along
with George Alec Effinger's 'Budayeen' stories ("When Gravity Fails" et
seq.), this is the most entertainingly original cyberpunk I have read.
________________
Nils on Teshnos:
> Does this seem totally wrong?
Far from it! World-expanding, and probably largely correct.
I liked your idea of having caste names linked to times of day (Morning,
Noon, Evening, and presumably Night).
I'd suggest that your Evening/kshatriya warrior caste worship Somash, the
god of nobles and warriors, while your Noon/brahman priestly caste are most
probably dedicated as a caste to Zitro Argon (god of old men and thus of
wisdom), but that this caste performs rituals for all the gods of Teshnos.
Apart from this change, the three "included" castes work fine as you
described, and in their trinity - only the deities attributed with each
aspect have changed.
Note that having Zitro Argon ('Dayzatar') as a caste-deity, in my scheme,
would be done quite deliberately in order to make this deity's social role
different and more prominent than the "equivalent" god in Dara Happa. Your
"retiring" position would then be more like Zitro Argon the Elder, or those
blind Yelmalions shut up in their towers. I suspect that the "release from
the cycle of reincarnation" you mention is an aspect of Kralori Mysticism
imported to Teshnos, and not part of the local cultus.
Furalor seems more like the goddess of Cremation than of War and Warriors.
Closer to Oakfed (as Holy Fire) or the Indian fire-sacrifice god Agni than
to Shargash or Humakt, say.
> Generally Teshnan culture is prone to philosophical speculation and
> spiritual matters rather than worldly conquest and military glory,
> probably because the Sacred caste has the political power for the
> time being.
Agreed. Except that the Sacred caste would be represented by Pubnashap,
"Vessel of Light", while more 'worldly' matters fall within the province of
Garusharp, "Prince of Elephants and Conqueror of Eagles", the only man with
an effective army in Teshnos these days. The air of "spirituality" you see
in Teshnos has been described in terms which make it sound like a magical
curse: "the famous lethargy which permeates Teshnos". Perhaps this (and
Harstar's success in circumventing it) is the more immediate cause?
Gore Vidal's "Creation" is good fun for ancient India, IMHO.
______________
David Gadbois:
> ... you might emerge from one of the tunnels of the Block (nice idea
> that, Nick) ...
I agree. It wasn't mine, though: those noteable Jrusteli Truestone Mines in
South Prax came from one of our Head Honchos, either Sandy or Greg.
_______________
Michelle wrote:
> I would like to think that Glorantha could incorporate our more modern
> ideas (sometimes fantasies) about women being heroines, sorceresses,
> knights, etc. in Gloranthan society.
I agree: I think it should, and I hope that by and large it does. Hey, it's
a fantasy world, innit? What better place to develop our fantasies?
Now, I see two primary plot-types to consider here: those in which the hero
or heroine is born to succeed, and those in which there are many obstacles
to be overcome on the path to glory, success, recognition or whatever.
Glorantha offers us several cultures where women have more power and choice
than appears ever to have been the case on this world: I'll cite the Lunar
Empire, the queendom of Esrolia, the distant lands of Zoria and Trowjang,
as the most obvious examples. Even your common-or-garden Sartarite women
have considerable freedom, as witness recent discussions on the role of
Vinga. Characters from these cultures can start off privileged, respected
and powerful. Jar-Eel the Razoress is the epitome of such a heroine. A
Cleopatra-style enchantress from Esrolia, a Boudicca-style queen from
Sartar, would be entirely reasonable characters and begin with considerable
resources, support, and freedom of action. Similar free spirits from almost
any reasonably civilised region can be imagined (with enough money, the
normal social barriers drop away): try Safelster, or Nolos, or Loskalm.
As for other, less gender-enlightened regions, they make good settings for
"underdog" plots. Consider the position of Lady Vega in Sun County: scorned
and ridiculed for her sex in a grotesquely patriarchal society, she has
nevertheless succeeded where lesser men (deliberate choice of words) have
failed. Does this constant opposition make her achievement more or less
exceptional? I'd say "more".
Likewise, I don't think anyone is saying there are *no* female knights in
the West, just that they are considered somewhat unusual in most regions.
I'd be happy to believe there are cities somewhere in the West which have
*wholly* female orders of chivalry. (Fish Speaker logic, anyone?). I'd be
outraged if anyone suggested Bradamante could not exist in Glorantha.
I'm certain nobody is trying to stop us from having enchantresses: what on
earth would be the point? Zillions of good plots flying out the window!
They'll try to ban witches next! Or Joan of Arc! (I'm repeating myself).
But part of the problem is that since we're using myth and archetypes to
construct Glorantha, we necessarily run into perennial human problems. Sex
exists. It makes a difference. Devising a non-sexual approach to humanity,
to all our cultures and religions and myths and role-playing, seems rather
sterile. For all-too-familiar bad reasons, there are a lot of patriarchal
socio-religious structures in our world. To lessen the creative burden we
struggling authors face, many of these have been exported or reconstructed
in Glorantha. I think you'll find they are presented as a Bad Thing, by and
large. Certainly, while David Hall and I have recently been designing (and
pillaging) some exaggeratedly sexist Western beliefs for "How the West was
One", we have never for a moment taken them seriously or intended them to
oppress or intimidate readers or players. Likewise, Mike Dawson's Arlaten
(SiP 64, 66) presents an extreme display or bigoted chauvinism which lets
players reevaluate their world: this man's attitudes are out of order and
completely atypical in Pavis.
What Gloranthan authors usually take pains to do is *empower* characters:
*any* characters. So whether we're talking about women, or trollkin, or
Rokari peasants, or Lunar slaves, or Esrolite men, RuneQuest makes all of
these into viable player characters. If you start from nowhere and get
*anywhere*, you've succeeded in something.
Vive la difference!
____________________
Kevin Rose asserted:
> One significant point is that a fast moving army advances at maybe 5km
> per day on average.
What kind of army is that!? I am fairly certain you have mistyped. Are you
using "advances" with some peculiar technical meaning? Or marching on your
stomach, perhaps??
_____________
Graeme wrote:
> People have said that Meriatan's attitudes seem similar to the Nazis, but
> I wouldn't be surprised to hear Jar-Eel say the same words.
Ah, but she'd put it so much more poetically!
: "In the end," she has said, "our victory is inevitable. So, of course,
: is our defeat. Such was ever the Moon's Way. And yet each Cycle sees our
: cause approach still closer to that point of perfection, of true balance,
: which our mother the Moon was the first to attain. Time is on our side.
: Like a mirror, we can meet each enemy with the face it turns towards us.
: The barbarians would have it so: at least they have made their choice.
: And in battle, I will reluctantly assist them to find what they desire."
Nah, I can't match her ineffable style... and not writing in an innately
poetic language like New Pelorian doesn't help!
> As for how good the Loskalmi army is: "The Loskalmi army is one of the
> best in the world". Pretty unambiguous, I'd say.
Cut'n'paste in the relevant bits of my April '93 textual argument that the
Fronela chapter was written from a biased pro-Loskalmi viewpoint. I thought
I'd managed to convince you - or was it Mark S. back then?
Sound bite: the fortifications of Northpoint are "incredibly extensive and
elaborate", while great castles spanning the walls of Jonatelan cities are
"signs of terrible oppression". Essentially, the Jonating Culture paragraph
on p.13 makes sense only from a Loskalmi viewpoint: else, what is a "guild
council", pray? Why are the evils of society blamed on a "ruling class"?
And, if these comments/critiques are universally relevant, why is this one
region the only place where they are mentioned? Or should we tacitly assume
that there are "guild councils" protesting lords' taxes in every other
region of Genertela? Just MHO, natch. Compare the following:
"Boldhome: this squalid town has only the most rudimentary sewage system,
and no public baths. No popular elections are held to fill the annual urban
magistracies, and civilised folk are regularly assaulted in the streets for
exercising their right to freedom of speech. Signs of terrible barbarism."
See? Criticisms can be very revelatory.
====
Nick
====