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---------------------
From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
Subject: RE: RQ Daily Jun 21, 1994
Message-ID: <940622074244452@thuemmel.com>
Date: 22 Jun 94 15:18:39 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4740
S> Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 4694
S> Yes, but they can still be killed. All sane dwarfs realize this.
I thought of normal dwarfs as regarding death as an indication of
unworthiness. I didn't really think of them fearing death so much as
fearing that through their failure the world machine might take longer
to get fixed. I thought that dwarfs lacked a sense of themselves as
individuals (suppressing anything contrary) and are doing their best to
regard themselves as cogs in the world machine.
I like this interpretation because it makes the dwarfs totally inhuman.
I thought of the individualists as just thinking it was ok to value
their individuality, and thus they would be more hesitant to risk
themselves for the sake of the world machine (ie: would be more
careful).
In your version of things would the individualists would be more willing
to risk their lives?
S> individualists may well believe that you have to "develop" your
S> personality from its roots before it's fit to survive on after death.
Hmm, interesting thought. Would this be similar to becoming a diamond
dwarf?
PS: Does your interpretation differ from Greg's also? I know he's a
notorious dwarf-hater.
_________________________________
Devin Cutler in X-RQ-ID: 4681
D> I am certainly not saying that the overlying conditions are not
D> different, merely that the underlying emotions are the same. Whether
D> fear of the unknown manifests as medieval superstition or modern fear
D> of flying, the underlying causes are similar.
But you're missing my point, which is that the person I describe hasn't
acquired any critical faculties. If he is incapable of critical think-
ing (or at the very least has been passively discouraged from trying it)
then he will not see any inconsistency or unlikelihood to people being
born in impossible ways nor of people performing impossible acts.
D> Never said pre-Renaissance Terrans were not devoted or whatever.
D> Merely postulating that Gloranthans are even MORE devoted because of
D> certain factors like life after death, magic, manifesting deities,
D> etc.
Well, I don't think you CAN be more devoted than a fairly large number
of people were during the ancient/medieval period. They seem rather
fanatical.
D> I still find it hard to believe that in a world so different from
D> ours (and c'mon, admit it, the presence of actual gods and actual
D> magic is a pretty basic difference) that you guys seem to be arguing
D> that there is NO effect on the philosophies and beliefs of the
D> inhabitants, but rather it will come out exactly as on earth.
But the existence of the gods isn't as undisputed as in medieval times.
Explanations for how it 'appears' that the gods exist but in fact they
don't (or aren't worthy of worship) are common in the areas adjoining
the west. Now if it was so abundantly clear as to be undeniable that
these are gods then how do you explain the west?
Meanwhile in medieval europe few claims that God doesn't exist can be
found. And the average peasant isn't likely to hear of them, the few
atheists that existed were academics. Most of the arguments were over
what exactly the true form of God was, not over whether he existed.
That was taken as a given by (almost) everybody. Many of those who had
good critical faculties had a marked aversion to examining religion with
this regard.
========================================================================
Dave Pearton in X-RQ-ID: 4684
D> requires the sacrifice of personal POW, POW (at least in RQII) is an
D> important part of one's "soul", thus when one gives POW to a deity
I find your line of thought intriguing, but how do you regard
illuminates then?
____________________________________
Joerg Baumgartner : in X-RQ-ID: 4703
J> and even lesser identification objects, like soccer teams (everywhere
J> outside the US), chariot races (in Dark Age Byzantium, cf. Nika riots
J> event card in Credo), or whatever.
I'm not talking a sudden outburst of suppressed rage, I'm talking about
systematically killing people to save their souls (a la Spainish (or any
other) Inquisition). Don't tell me you agree with Devin's position that
ancient people aren't really much different than people today?
_____________________________
Harald Smith in X-RQ-ID: 4689
H> references to primitive Balazar, to Rigtaina the Hunting Nymph, to
H> the rivalry between the Telmori and the Dog-people of Balazar, etc.
Where is this Rigtaina reference from?
H> Now, on the other hand, I believe strongly that Balazar should be
H> restored to its original form. FREE BROTHER DOG NOW!
Be careful what you wish for. Now that I have Griffin Mountain, I'm
glad Greg won't be changing everything around in at least this ONE
location that has been detailed.
By the way do you consider the Balazarings to be Dog Hsunchen?
_______________________________
Michelle Ringo in X-RQ-ID: 4699
M> These comments help support my theme which is that this
M> entire Hrestoli/Rokari world being discussed is extremely
M> sexist and unpleasant. Creating an entire group of cultures
M> where no woman (that I have met) would want to play (if they
M> followed the role of women recently outlined here) is IMO a
M> bad idea.
I have to agree with you, but I think this goes part and parcel with the
general increasing of realism and decreasing of the fantastic.
Personally, I feel that a female adventurer was better off in the days
when Glorantha's cultures were undefined since that left more leeway for
a totally equalitarian culture. As we have it now, it is no longer
anything like a perfectly equal setup, but it is (arguably) more
interesting. Although new things like Vinga show that Greg is at least
aware of the problem (IMO). Also Women can be totally equal (if not
superior) in the lunar empire.
WRT the West: Hey don't blame us ;^), the new supplement makes it clear
what Rokari culture is like. I personally would like to see something
different for Hrestol for this reason (among others).
M> previously barred them from casting magic. Women warriors
M> flourish throughout the world of Glorantha and there is no
M> reason for them not to flourish in Rokari/Hrestoli.
Except that thats not what Strangers in Prax tells us, at least WRT the
Rokari. It says plainly No Women fight or cast magic except renegades.
Of course one could argue that these renegades are common or somesuch...
M> Why not expand the possible roles available to women beyond Wife
M> of Knight, Daughter of Wizard and not make a separate sex/caste
M> classification.
Well, this may be possible to do, but seems the more likely course
towards getting Gregged to me. I'd like to think that the Rokari are
very different in this regard from Hrestoli, but it doesn't seem all
that likely.
Oh, by the way, no I have no gamers currently, and have only had one
female in my old group (kid sister of a friend) who played for a few
games (although not Gloranthan ones).
Cullen
---------------------
From: QFF00036@niftyserve.or.jp (Kuri)
Subject: Name of the Red Goddess.
Message-ID: <199406221256.VAA15166@inetnif.niftyserve.or.jp>
Date: 22 Jun 94 12:50:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4741
Cullen Grace wrote:
>What was the name of the Red Goddess in life, before her apotheosis?
Terro Nori.
Regards.
// Kuri (QFF00036@niftyserve.or.jp) //
---------------------
From: eejuffs@swansea.ac.uk (Philip Juffs)
Subject: Sun Dome Hoplites and the Romans
Message-ID: <4680.9406221325@hope.swan.ac.uk>
Date: 22 Jun 94 13:25:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4742
I have a few comments on the article on the Sun Dome,
or more specifically on pros and cons of the phalanx.
1. The Pike Phalanx does not have to supported on its flacks to be effiective.
For example the Swiss had virtually no cavalry but still managed to make
mincemeat out of a lot of other peolple for a while. Admitadly they were
exceptionally well disaplined.
2. I belive that the 'esprit de corps' of any miliatery unit is much more
siginificant than weapon types.
e.g.
Hannibal and his kin vs the Romans
(Essentially Hannibals men were not highly trained)
Arabs armies of various times vs lots of other people
3. When Phalanx did meet Legion on flat ground the chance of one side winning
was about 50-50, the Romans beat up the Alaxandrian Successors (the Phalanx useses of the time)
because they could put a lot more armies in the field than the other guy.
4. I doubt weather the Romans would have had as much 'fun' with Alexander the Great,
or the Spartans or the Theaban Sacred Band etc etc. However its always very risky to make comparisons
between military systems of different times and places becauase so much in warfare, particularly
ancient warfare, depands on why you hitting the guy, and what reputation he has, rather than what
he is hitting you with!
On another subject, I've started to write a Windows(tm) based RuneQuest Character editor/generator
principally aimed at the NPC side of things. I'd be gratful for any wish lists of features they'd
like to see in such a program (mail me direct).
And lastly, I recently ran a game where a Broo shaman had possed an allosaur with a view to mating
it with some of his tribe. (As if the thought of 10 tons of intelligent spell casting carnivore
wasn't bad enough.) Sort of shades of Jurrasic Park. Can anyone give me rational why
this sort of thing doen't happen more often?
Regards
Phill
---------------------
From: niwe@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander)
Subject: Various
Message-ID: <9406221337.AA13708@ppvku.ericsson.se>
Date: 22 Jun 94 17:37:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4743
Nils Weinander writing
PMichaels@aol.com writes about Humakti.
Very nice IMO. Describes Humakti very much like I think of them.
_____
Kuri writes about Hero Points.
I have mentioned this before in the RQ4 playtest list, but I think it
is not entirely inappropriate here on the Daily. I think that the RQ
standard mechanism for divine intervention, rolling d100 (d10) under
POW isn't very good. It feels too much like russian roulette to me.
I prefer a rule where really devout worshippers, priests, rune lords
and exceptional initiates can get divine favours. If you have done
something really important for the cult you get one divine favour
which can be stores away, and later traded in for a divine intervention
when you need it.
This way the GM has full control over the PCs access to divine aid, and
the players have reliable DI _if_ they have any divine favours to cash
in.
To use this it is of course necessary to decide what kind of actions
merit divne favours. It shouldn't be too difficult to make up guide-
lines for various cults. What else? rune level persons should perhaps
get one divine favour free per year from their status.
So, what do you think? Does it feel Gloranthan enough?
_____
On the gender issue:
I agree fully with all who have suggested that gender roles in Glorantha
should be less pronounced than in the real world. It is just more
interesting then. I also think it should go both ways, i.e. not just
warrior women, but also men doing traditional women's tasks.
Nick on the same subject:
>Glorantha offers us several cultures where women have more power and choice
>than appears ever to have been the case on this world: I'll cite the Lunar
>Empire, the queendom of Esrolia, the distant lands of Zoria and Trowjang,
>as the most obvious examples.
Where is Zoria?
_____
/Nils W
---------------------
From: swj@liverpool.ac.uk (Mr S.W. Jones)
Subject: Pedant Poses Praxian Problems.
Message-ID: <199406221350.OAA15249@uxe.liv.ac.uk>
Date: 22 Jun 94 15:50:48 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4744
Okay, for the officiando's and general Gloranthophiles here's
a few things to think about;
Firstly, the Hyena's of Prax, from the dead body of Genert, and are
kept by the Morokanth, now other animals have at least spirits and at the
most gods- do the hyena's have a over-spirit (cats- Yinkin, dogs- Brother
Dog etc.). Is this spirit anything to do with Genert? Did the Hyena's exist
before Genert died and fed on him or were the born from him?
Secondly, cast your minds back to River of Cradles, a long I know-
the description of Storm Bull, hmm, okay- his iron horns- where did he get
them, Urox was around before (I know time didn't exist before the Dawning)
, but before the Mostali made iron. Should it be adamant, shurely more
effective.
Thirdly, are the Morokanth associated with the Darkness rune, or
is it just that people think they are because of their eating habits and
nocturnal activities.
Fourthly, how do Morokanth sneeze and do they say atishoo (or other
culturally appropriate apology/exclamation)?
Hope this gets the synapses going,
Simon.
---------------------
From: sstair@cs.utep.edu (Steve Stair GS)
Subject: Chalana Arroy, Sleep & Chaos
Message-ID: <9406221617.AA10855@grouse>
Date: 22 Jun 94 17:17:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4745
>Rom (initiate of SB) was in combat with a Chaos 'gator, Andara (initiate of
>CA) used her sleep on the creature Rom was in combat with(loosing badly too)
>and succeeded. Even when it was obvious the creature was helpless and above
>her protests, Rom killed it. They both feel they acted within their cult
>guidelines. Rom killed a creature under her protection(ala sleep spell),
>other then withholding healing (and reporting it to her High Healer) what can
>she do?
According to Chalana Arroy's writeup in "Gods", Chalana Arroy
initiates are sworn to protect from harm beings that they have "slept",
EXCEPT when that being is chaotic.
--Stephen Stair
---------------------
From: brandon@caldonia.nlm.nih.gov (Brandon Brylawski)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 21 Jun 1994, part 4
Message-ID: <9406221622.AA01062@caldonia.nlm.nih.gov>
Date: 22 Jun 94 16:22:39 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4746
Colin Watson writes in X-RQ-ID: 4570
"Remember, as a result of the Compromise, that the Gods have no free will.
They're not omniscient either. They can't read your mind. So long as you
carry out the correct rituals etc, they will respond accordingly "giving"
you magic. This response to worship is like a reflex. They don't choose
who is "worthy" and who is not. That kind of decision is in the hands of
the priests of the cult. It is the priests who choose who should be
initiated.(And they are fallible.) Once you're initiated you've pretty
much got it made."
In my version of Glorantha, the Gods fall in an area between mechanisms and
persons. I use the following dicta to decide what your God knows or doesn't :
- Gods have no understanding of Time. To them, ever since the Compromise,
their link to their followers has no "past" or "future", just a "now".
The consequences :
- You may ask God for help _now_, but not help in the future. God cannot
watch what you are doing in the future and smooth your way, although he
can cast magic on you now that will last for a while.
- God never does anything for you unless you ask him to; he cannot
notice that anything is going on unless you activate the link between
you. For instance, he will not smite your enemies until you specifically
call down his wrath upon them.
- Gods have no understanding of mundane events on Glorantha, except for
what their followers tell them. This means :
- God has no idea what you have done recently or long ago, unless you
or another worshipper tells him in prayer _or_ your action caused a
change in the link between you and God. For example, Yelmalio knows
if you break a geas, because it is part of your bond betwen you and He.
He also knows if you have stopped worshipping (become inactive),
because he can see the fact that your link to him lies fallow.
He has no idea how long you have been inactive, nor what you may be
doing now.
- Gods can see directly mythic events that pertain to their spheres of
influence, and things that affect their links to worshippers. For example :
Yelmalio would know if :
- the sun became dimmer, or obscured by clouds all of the time;
- the sky dome developed a hole in it;
- an active worshipper of his were dead or alive, and where they were;
- a temple of his were consecrated or not;
- an item consecrated to him were working, and how to use it;
- A large number of his worshippers (say, a village or more) were
perverting Truth or Light in his worship;
- a follower of his had broken a geas or cult vow (see above),
unless illuminated.
Brandon
---------------------
From: brandon@caldonia.nlm.nih.gov (Brandon Brylawski)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 21 Jun 1994, part 4
Message-ID: <9406221635.AA01147@caldonia.nlm.nih.gov>
Date: 22 Jun 94 16:35:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4747
Chris Cooke write :
"Rom (initiate of SB) was in combat with a Chaos 'gator, Andara (initiate of
CA) used her sleep on the creature Rom was in combat with(loosing badly too)
and succeeded. Even when it was obvious the creature was helpless and above
her protests, Rom killed it. They both feel they acted within their cult
guidelines. Rom killed a creature under her protection(ala sleep spell),
other then withholding healing (and reporting it to her High Healer) what can
she do?"
Clearly ROM has gone against Chalana Arroy in killing a sleeping creature.
Did Andara try to prevent the killing other than protesting? Most CA that I
know would have tried to bodily interpose themselves. If she did not
resist the act to every reasonable degree, then she may have some of the blame
herself.
Now, with regard to Chaotic creatures, CA's stricture against allowing others
to kill is sometimes muted. Chaos nearly destroyed the world; while CA has a
duty to try to heal anything, even chaos, and prevent it from coming to harm,
chaotic things will try to kill healers and thus forfeit in small part some
of the White Lady's protection, but not all.
Chalana Arroy Priestesses have a curse that they can lay upon those that have
transgressed against CA, if they feel that the offense warrants it. Normally,
one heals members of one's own species at a 1 mp for 1 hit point rate; other
species are healed at half this rate, 2 mp for 1 hit point. CA healers
do not have this restriction : they heal all species at 1 for 1.
A CA priestess can curse a trangressor "may your flesh be foreign to all
creatures!" or similar language. This causes the person to be healable by others(and even perhaps themselves) only at the 2 for 1 rate, as if they were no
longer human (or whatever species they were originally).
Thus, two ways to resolve this : One, have Andara decide that horrible chaos
beasties do not deserve the same protection as creatures that respect CA,
and thus, while Rom has done a bad and stupid thing and should not
be trusted, he has not committed a terrible evil. Two, have her threaten him
with the Healing Curse unless he is contrite and performs a task for her
to show that he has regretted his action (for example, using no weapons for
one season).
Brandon
---------------------
From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Questions... questions...
Message-ID: <9406221701.AA15799@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk>
Date: 22 Jun 94 18:01:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4748
__________
James Polk at me:
>Hey folks, I think I found a Mostali!
[The sound of a crossbow being cocked]
Nah, Mostali don't use Smilies. :-)
>If all decision-making ability was taken
>from the gods by the Compromise, then how does one explain the events
>connected with the Lunar Goddess?
Which events?
BTW I find, when reading myths (especially those set after Time begins), it
gives an interesting slant if you insert "the cult of" before each mention
of a God's name. When it says "Orlanth did this, Orlanth thought that"; try
"the cult of Orlanth did this, the cult of Orlanth thought that".
Before you know it, the battle between the gods becomes a clash of cultures.
>How does one explain the destruction of the God Learners?
I confess I don't know enough about the demise of the God Learners.
If we knew "why" then maybe we could start to explain "how".
But we can't know "why".
Does anyone know anything about Janax? (as in "Janaxian Extermination of
Ideas").
>And what makes you think a Troll could become a Yelmalian simply by
>performing normal initiation rituals?
Well, she could possibly get the magic attributed to Yelmalio by this means
(is this what you mean by "becoming a Yelmalian"?).
Of course, any prerequisites of the ritual must be fulfilled.
It could be that the ritual which works for a human won't work for a troll;
in which case a pre-ritual may be required where the troll changed herself
into a human (somehow...).
Magic is a quirky business: It might depend upon race or gender; you might
need six legs, or horns, or opposable thumbs to perform a ritual properly. But
if you can meet all the requirements then the magic will work. This is
the way the gods decided to make it. These decisions were made in Godtime.
The Compromise prevents the gods changing them within Time.
___
CW.