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---------------------
From: DevinC@aol.com
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 21 Jun 1994, part 4
Message-ID: <9406221323.tn38712@aol.com>
Date: 22 Jun 94 17:23:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4749
Devin Cutler here:
Colin Watson responds to the growing "Can the gods decide who is naughty and
who is nice?" dabte by citing "Lokamayadon"
IMO, this is a situation much like the Priest of Orlanth in Pavis (I forget
his name, but he is a Lunar stooge). The answer is Illumination. And we all
know that Gbaji/Osentalka/Nysalor/Arkat was, in a previous incarnation
Rashoran. Therefore, I submit that those persons of the council who helped to
create Nysalor/Gbaji were probably Illuminated early into their work. Thus,
we can blame Orlanth's inability to react to his treachery on Illumination.
Chris Cooke asks about a potential conflict between a Stormbull who wants to
kill a Chaos creature which has been slept by a Chalanna Arroy.
In RQ2 this was a problem (it was in my campaign, where I had the same
problem). However, in GoG, it specifically says that Chalanna Arroy may slay
Chaos. Therefore, they do no have to protect Chaos who are slept by their
magic.
In my current campaign, a similar problem has been arising. The party leader
is an Illuminated Yelmalian who insists upon still following his geasa
rigidly. When the Chalanna Arroy sleeps a Troll, she is required to protect
it...yet Yelmalians can never show mercy to a Troll. Now, there's a conflict
for ya!
Michelle Ringo complains about sexism in Glorantha.
I have always thought that Glorantha was fairly balanced in this regard.
After all, let's take a look:
Lunar Empire - Definitely female oriented, with equal opportunities for both
sexes
Trolls - Completely matriarchal...with females have much better stats as well
Trowjang - Amazon society......with male slaves for breeding most likely
Orlanthi Society - Vinga the Adventuress
Yelmic Society (supposedly one of the most repressive) - Yelorna
I think there are plenty of opportunities for females playing empowered
female characters.
Rather than have a completely egalitarian world, which seems unrealistic and
uniteresting, I prefer that we have the gender biases swing both ways, as we
do with Uz.
BTW, the campaign I run has a female player in it, and the one I play in has
a different female player as well.
Colin Watson writes:
"I'd say the info from the divination is just based on what the god usually
knows (mostly from worshippers prayers). If the Divination gives you a
"good reference" then you get accepted. A bad reference, or too-little info
would result in rejection."
Well then, what's the point of the Divination in the first place? Why not
just ask around and get the opinion of the temple members verbally?
Nick writes:
" Besides, you have in the past protested that you're not the
least bit interested in any of the historical, anthropological or cultural
material on these lists (I can look up references, if you're going to pull
a "Scholars? Moi?" again). Wilful ignorance seemed the easiest answer. "
Go ahead and pull the references. I do not think you will find me saying "I
am not IN THE LEAST BIT interested..." ; this is you exaggerating my point
that the daily was focusing TOO MUCH on such points. I AM in fact, IN THE
LEAST BIT interested in such things...just not IN THE MOST BIT interested in
having them dominate Gloranthan thinking.
As far as "Scholars, Moi?", I assume you are referring to the fact that I
claim to have never specifically named anyone on the list as a Scholar. I
still stand by this and await a copy of any posting wherein I did name
someone as a "Scholar". If "Scholar, Moi?" refers to something else that I
have been inconsistent about, please let me know.
"I think you will find the people who support that contention are for the
most part not historians, psychologists, or anthropologists. Though they
may be Americans. "
Then we both think differently. How shall we prove it?
Joerg writes:
"Sez who? Game practice? Resurrection R Us?
I stand against a reliable resurrection service in Glorantha, but I don't
want to revive this dinosaur thread once again."
Well, I must have missed this thread. But it IS a big issue here. You will
have to somehow explain to me how, in a Glorantha where Chalanna Arroy has a
reusable Resurrection, charges only what the recipient can afford (donations
actually), and is willing to heal almost anyone, Resurrection is not widely
available?
"If the blank lands were positioned there, why not. They aren't, though. "
Well, if we are going to say that every place in Glornatha has some
significance, then Blank Lands would be right out. But, I still think there
must be at least 1 out of the wayish area in each region of Genertela that
can hold some sort of Blank Land.
"This is why I tossed in apparent death, a phenomenon popular enough to give
a man like Poe nightmares."
Right, but the Gloranthan sees a dead man brought into a Chalanna Arroy
temple, the Chalanna Arroy does a 3 hour ritual, and more often than not, the
recipient is raised. The Pre-Ren sees someone rise up from a false death
maybe once in a blue moon, at random. A level of predictability is missing in
the latter.
Cullen writes:
"Well, just to judge from your ideas, I also assumed you hadn't studied
much history. Of course here in the US, schooling only include US
history in most places (as a requirement) and our history isn't very
long (since we don't really study the natives)."
Nevertheless, always better to ask than assume
I am very well-versed in accounting, but I have not chosen to expound upon
Accounting systems in Glorantha and did not get involved in the great double
entry Lunar bookkeeping debate of some time ago. Mainly because I find it
wholly uninteresting. My silence on an issue, or my desire to see less of
something on the Daily does not, in and of itself, mean I have no knowledge
of the subject. Were the double entry bookkeeping issue to have raged on and
the Daily become devoted primarily to the various accouning systems of the
Malkioni versus the Kraloralens, then I might rail against all of the
accounting appearing on the daily. Nevertheless, I could probably out account
most of you on the list (Nick excluded, since I seem to remember that he was
an accountant :-)).
Similarly, Russia vs the Gemrans in WW2 is being brought up as a means of
comparing Kow vs Loskalm. I am an expert on WW2 history, but again, I refrain
from putting in my two cents because I consider such a comparison irrelevant.
"Then why were YOU comparing ancient and medieval peoples to Glorantha
peoples and saying Gloranthan peoples are more devout. If you don't
want to make a comparison-- fine don't make one, "
Gee, somewhow I see comparing how Glorantha DIFFERS from Ancient Earth as a
bit different than saying Glorantha IS just like Earth. I have been railing
against Glorantha as a mirror image of Earth. My argument for this devoutness
thread IS JUST THAT! I must compare the differences in Glorantha and Earth in
order to support my contention.
"but don't expect to
make wrong-headed statements about history and not get corrected."
Well, this is all very high-and-mighty sounding, but I will contend that I
have not made any wrong-headed statements, and that you have, and that it is
I who have been correcting you. Nyaaa!
If you want to cite a FACT that I have misstated, that's one thing, but I
think one might want to respect an opinion one disagrees with, even
vehemently.
"I hope this isn't actually the case... Ancient peoples differed from us
at a very profound level. Not biologically, but that isn't necessary.
People aren't born with many preconception about the world, so almost
all our notions about the world are cultural."
They also were similar to us at a much MORE profound level. Maybe the problem
is just that I am talking about a level that is more deeply rooted in the
human condition...maybe even instinctual.
"Haven't you ever heard a discussion between an Atheist and a Baptist
Fundamentalist? The basic approach of these two persons is different at
a very deep level, yet they come from what is supposed to be the same
culture. The discussion generally breaks down fairly quickly because
they generally can't seem to agree on a basis for discussion (largely
because they don't share even remotely the same epistemology)."
Yes, their discussion breaks down on an intellectual level. I am not talking
about intellectual or even philosophical levels. I am not talking about
paradigms, which certainly change as the world around us changes. I am
talking about root human emotions, reactions to stimuli, etc.
Most Atheists and the Baptists (and human beings), for example, have a deep
rooted fear of the unknown (i.e. death). However, they deal with this
commonality in different ways. The Baptist comforts himself with the notion
of a Heaven. The Atheist does something else entirely (maybe denies it on a
conscious level), but the deep seated commonality remains.
"Why would we study ancient peoples if they were just like us? It is so
much easier to get information about people around us, who are
presumably even more similar than ancient peoples? We study history for
precisely the opposite reason, because of those differences. History
helps us to see OUR root assumptions about the nature of the world."
We study them partially for their differences, as you claim. Their different
philosophies, art, literature, etc. can provide insight into our own "root
assumptions about the nature of the world" as you wrote.
However, if we did not share some sort of basic (maybe almost Jungian) common
humanity with Ancient men (and by humanity, I do not mean biologically, I
mean we share the same sort of wants, needs, desires, fears, etc.), then it
WOULD be useless to study them, because anything we gleaned from them would
be utterly irrelevant to our lives. The fact that we do study ancient
cultures means theat we use their differences to find alternate ways to deal
with common predicaments.
Regards,
Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com
---------------------
From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Orlanth's best buddy
Message-ID: <9406221720.AA16577@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk>
Date: 22 Jun 94 18:20:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4750
David (Cheng) writes:
>As I understand the legends, Lokamayadon acted not to eliminate
>Orlanth, but to _replace_ him.
Either way it's bad news for Orlanth.
My question is: if Orlanth knew Lokamayadon was plotting against him in this
way, why didn't he do something about it sooner?
___
CW.
---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: phalanxes
Message-ID: <9406221932.AA01031@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 22 Jun 94 07:33:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4751
re: Chalana Arroy and Chaos
In my own campaigns, CA healers have never been required to
"defend all life" and when the party is attacked by broos, trolls, or
even elves, the healer is not expected to keep the party from killing
their foes. However, if the party takes prisoners, the healer should
feel obliged to keep the PCs from killing them out of hand, or
causing excessive pain in so doing. On the other hand, the healer's
not required to heal them.
Now, chaos is sort of a problem. Obviously, chaos is bad and
must be wiped out and cult dogmas and restrictions don't count vs.
chaos. My own interpretation is that the exact amount of kindness and
light a CA must exhibit varies with her temple, but under no
circumstances is she allowed to kill or wield weapons, even against
chaos. For that matter, I play that she's not allowed to let her
companions kill chaos creatures that she's Slept or Befuddled.
This is NOT because she's worried about the chaos things'
welfare -- it is because of the adverse moral effect of letting the
CA healer do such violent activities, even in a good cause. I would
view it as a (minor) violation of cult rules to permit an ally to
kill a chaos creature that a CA healer had slept. However, it would
not be considered a major Spirit of Retribution-alerting sin. My own
CA Healers knowingly refrain from casting Sleep and Befuddle on chaos
entities for just this reason.
Maloney mentions:
>phalanxes are pretty inflexible, fragile entities unless they have
>anchored flanks and/or excellent flank support.
The Persians used them for army cores, and presumably that's
what the Lunars do, too. The Heartland corps are only a small part of
the whole Lunar army. The Sun Domers, as I mentioned in the last
mailing, are probably not a balanced army.
>there is the heroic mob of the Germanics and the medievals. I wonder
>how they would have done against a disciplined, well-ordered legion.
>They never faced one, you know. By the time the Germans started
>invading Rome, things had sunk pretty low.
Sure they faced 'em -- the Gallic mobs were not dissimilar
during the Roman conquest. Also, the Teutoburgerwald was vs. German
troops and the Romans were at their best then. The Germans fought the
Romans plenty of times before the Legion had deteriorated. We also
have a fine example of what the Romans would have done if they had to
face medievals -- the Byzantine Empire was a direct descendent of the
ancient Romans, and they called themselves Romans. Their army was
once legions, and gradually transformed into the Byzantine system of
warfare, with cataphracts and a central core of infantry.
Cullen Grace ponders:
>Here's a fun question: What was the name of the Red Goddess in
>life, before her apotheosis?
My answer: Teelo Norri
Paul Reilly:
>Sandy can say something about Pamaltela and gender roles here.
Many Pamaltelan gods are quite gender-specific. Few (if any)
men join Aleshmara, and few women sign up for Cronisper. Almost
everyone picks gods to worship that have the same gender as
themselves -- with some notable exceptions like Jmijie or Bolongo.
Even Pamalt, whose worship is open to all, is more common among men
than women (who often worship Faranar instead).
Because of the resultant differences in magic, men and women
have somewhat different roles, but the culture is generally
female-dominated in a subtle way. The Chieftain of a tribe must be
male, but his office can be taken away from him at will by the old
women of the tribe, who can then give it to any qualified man they
want -- presumably someone who'll do what they want. In this manner
(argue the Doraddi), equality is served.
Technically, women own all property except the man's personal
clothing and his weapons (if any). In practice, men often accumulate
other little widgets that they keep to themselves. The norm is for a
man to go to live in his wife's tribe, and usually in his
mother-in-law's tent.
On the other hand (as with trolls), males often make better
PCs, because they're likelier to go wandering around and get into
trouble -- they are still the hunters and (most) warriors, with women
doing more important political and economic tasks. But plenty of
women become hunters and warriors, just as many men restrict
themselves to gathering roots and plant fodder.
>Hrestoli might or might not have female magicians, warriors, and
>rulers.It's not established.
I want them to.
>Do the matriarchal societies breed "radical masculinists"? Are the
>[Zorak] Zorani such a group?
Kindly refer to ZZ by his full name or at least the first --
my third son's third name is "Zoran". I'd not thought of the ZZ as a
reaction to the Uz female dominance, but the more I look on this
concept, the more I like it -- certainly I picture most ZZ members as
male. No doubt ZZ is a route for a mere male to gain political power
in his community, which may explain why the struggles between ZZ and
KL in many troll communities have such political ramifications -- the
Kaarg's Sons are loyalists who obey the KL women, while the ZZ are
hostile and not necessarily obedient to the women rulers at all.
---------------------
From: swj@liverpool.ac.uk (Mr S.W. Jones)
Subject: Sartar again
Message-ID: <199406221650.RAA28656@uxh.liv.ac.uk>
Date: 22 Jun 94 18:50:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4752
Hello, again.
Something funny going on here, being an amateur, anyway, should
work this time.
How do,
It was mentioned about a week or so ago, that people wanted stuff
on Sartar, well here's some from my notes. Hope that there agreeable, I'm
sure that there is official background covering northern Sartar which I
haven't got, however I don't think that these spirits will cause any
consternation. Happy reading.
SPIRIT CULTS OF NORTHERN SARTAR.
As with many lands, Sartar has small cults based around the worship of
local spirits; these are just a few of those to be found in my campaign,
set in Northern Sartar, lands of the Tres, Bachad, Dinacoli, Vantaros
and Amad Tribes.
Bone Dancer. (Illusion, Earth, Death)
Among the scattered bones in the Vale of Bones, towards the south where
the land lies low, is a prominent, if small hill. Atop this hill is an almost
creamy white, almost hemispherical rock, rising some 2-3m. On approaching the
rock, it can be seen to be about 6m across and submerged into the ground.
On the west side of the rock is a small hole, perhaps 0.5m wide, it looks
freshly dug and extends downwards some 4-5m against the side of the rock.
Investigating deeper will reveal a hole in the side of the rock into which a
chamber extends. Again this is some 5-6m wide. It is the inside of the rock,
which is in fact the skull of a giant who fell in the I Fought, We Won battle,
which culminated in Snake Pipe Hollow, some miles to the north west.
It is here that the spirit Bone Dancer can be contacted. Bone Dancer
remembers the conflict, and will remember most of those who fell in the Valley,
should he be given time. Bone Dancer is lonely and senile, but mostly senile.
He occupies his time talking to himself, and even when worshipped may take
some time to notice. Bone Dancer may have some links with the cult of Humakt,
although you'd have to wait quite a while for the answer.
Bone Dancer will teach the patient and worthy the spell Corpse Talk.
Corpse Talk (1pt. Divine).
Forces the spirit of a recent corpse (less than 3 days) back into the
body, with the intention of questioning it. The spirit will remain to answer
three questions, about it's life or death and no more; or until the duration
of the spell expires.
Grey Man. (Shadow, Disorder)
The Grey Man lurks in shadows all over the north, and is occassionally
found in the groves and copses that frequently dot the landscape near
Herongreen. No one knows who Grey Man is, or was, except perhaps Coal Eyes-
the shaman who lives near Herongreen who can find him sometimes.
Grey Man will teach the divine spell Shadow Cloak.
Shadow Cloak (1pt. Divine)
This spell makes the recipient look somewhat insubstantial and dark, as
though partially in shadow. This spell works much better depending on the
light available, for instance under the mid-day sun, subtract 5% from the
attackers skill, or scan roll. In shadows, or at dawn/dusk upto 50%.
Great Heron. (Sky, Harmony)
The great Heron is the spirit of the Herons at Heron Green, who
roost just south of the village near the Wind Whistle trees. The Great Heron
can be contacted in the Green by the appropriate spell which she teaches to
the faithful, Summon Great Herons.
Summon Great Herons (3pt. Ritual Spirit)
This spell when cast in northern Sartar will summon several of the
Great Herons who nest in Herongreen- these Herons will bear the summoner
to the limits of their strength (20- 30kms).
Chalk Man. (Earth, Man)
The Chalk Man resides in the Chalk Man Valley, towards the north eastern
side where a large figure of a man is cut out into the chalk. Legend tells
that the chalk man figure was left when a giant slept there as the Earth Mother
was casting the seeds on the ground, although some say that the Dragonewts
cut the ground with magic, to make a symbol showing where people lived just
before the Dragonkill War. Regardless of myth, the spirit who can be
contacted there will say nothing of its origins. It is the wyter spirit of
a tribe of people who lived before the dragons came, in the hills thereabout,
and although they have passed beyond memory, it remains. This spirit will
teach a variety of spirit spells- Protection, Countermagic, Spirit Screen,
Heal, to tribes who will accept its protection. It currently protect the
Vantaros tribesmen,of Ironspike as well as their own wyter. Seperately,
the spirit will teach worshippers Find Settlement.
Find Settlement (1pt. Divine)
This acts as a standard Find spell, with the exceptions that the range
is extended to some 10km, thereby directing the caster to the nearest
settlement, whether friendly or not; and the duration is extended until a
settlement is within range.
Speaks in Whispers. (Air, Spirit)
Speaks in Whispers came from Prax, shouting the coming of Urox before
the Greater Darkness. Speaks in Whispers had a different name then and was
much louder. But like many of the faithful of Urox, he fell in the fight
with the Devil. Speaks in Whispers did not perish though and crawled away
confused. Since then, Speaks in Whispers has spoken quietly, because he
feels he ran away, and doesn't want Urox to hear him and find him. Speaks
in Whispers can be found by shouting his name anywhere in the northern
lands, but more specifically near the Indigo Mountains where he has a
special cave where he hides. He comes to tell the shouter to be quiet,
rather forceful winds batter the shouter, but Speaks in Whispers will
normally talk to the persistent.
Speaks in Whispers learnt a new magic once he stopped shouting, which he
will teach to those who worship,it is called Voice Taker.
Voice Taker (1pt. Divine)
This spell will render whoever the caster chooses speechless,
provided magic points are overcome. Speaks in Whispers likes casting it
on those who shout.
--------------------
Hope that those are okay, and wasn't someone else going to write about
Sartar as well. I have some descriptions of places in the North- Alone,
Herongreen, Amadhall etc., if people are interested, I'll put them on the
digest. The promised Donander cult write-up, is on it's way, however, in
the light of there being an official one in WW18, which I lack, I thought
I'd wait.
Cheers,
-Simon.