From gadbois@mcc.com Sat Jul 29 15:56:39 1995 Received: from cash.wharton.upenn.edu (CASH.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU [130.91.160.43]) by hops.wharton.upenn.edu (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA02229 for; Sat, 29 Jul 1995 15:56:38 -0400 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by cash.wharton.upenn.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id PAA27767 for loren@hops.wharton.upenn.edu; Sat, 29 Jul 1995 15:56:38 -0400 Received: from turtle.mcc.com (turtle.mcc.com [128.62.1.215]) by cash.wharton.upenn.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA27751 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 1995 15:55:31 -0400 Received: from hippo.mcc.com (hippo.mcc.com [128.62.11.50]) by turtle.mcc.com (8.6.10/mcc.8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA10318 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 1995 14:55:24 -0500 Received: from zorak-zoran.mcc.com by hippo.mcc.com (5.65/isd-other_921116_15:19) id AA26830; Sat, 29 Jul 1995 14:55:11 -0500 Mail-From: From RuneQuest-Request@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM Thu Jun 23 02:43:27 1994 Received: from Sun.COM (Sun.COM [192.9.9.1]) by news.cs.utexas.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA19130 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 1994 02:43:25 -0500 Received: from snail.Sun.COM (snail.Corp.Sun.COM) by Sun.COM (sun-barr.Sun.COM) id AA24191; Thu, 23 Jun 94 00:30:22 PDT Received: from Holland.Sun.COM (isunnl) by snail.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25246; Thu, 23 Jun 94 00:29:39 PDT Received: from glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM by Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1e) id AA11132; Thu, 23 Jun 94 09:29:30 +0200 Received: by glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20598; Thu, 23 Jun 94 09:27:50 +0200 Date: Thu, 23 Jun 94 09:27:50 +0200 Message-Id: <9406230727.AA20598@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM> X-PH: V4.2@cash.wharton.upenn.edu From: RuneQuest-Request@glorantha.holland.sun.com (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@glorantha.holland.sun.com (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@glorantha.holland.sun.com (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 23 Jun 1994, part 3 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@holland.sun.com Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk Resent-To: Loren Miller Resent-From: David Gadbois Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 14:54-0500 Resent-Message-Id: <19950729195459.1.GADBOIS@ZORAK-ZORAN.MCC.COM> X-UIDL: 807050821.011 Status: RO --------------------- From: DevinC@aol.com Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 21 Jun 1994, part 4 Message-ID: <9406221323.tn38712@aol.com> Date: 22 Jun 94 17:23:35 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4749 Devin Cutler here: Colin Watson responds to the growing "Can the gods decide who is naughty and who is nice?" dabte by citing "Lokamayadon" IMO, this is a situation much like the Priest of Orlanth in Pavis (I forget his name, but he is a Lunar stooge). The answer is Illumination. And we all know that Gbaji/Osentalka/Nysalor/Arkat was, in a previous incarnation Rashoran. Therefore, I submit that those persons of the council who helped to create Nysalor/Gbaji were probably Illuminated early into their work. Thus, we can blame Orlanth's inability to react to his treachery on Illumination. Chris Cooke asks about a potential conflict between a Stormbull who wants to kill a Chaos creature which has been slept by a Chalanna Arroy. In RQ2 this was a problem (it was in my campaign, where I had the same problem). However, in GoG, it specifically says that Chalanna Arroy may slay Chaos. Therefore, they do no have to protect Chaos who are slept by their magic. In my current campaign, a similar problem has been arising. The party leader is an Illuminated Yelmalian who insists upon still following his geasa rigidly. When the Chalanna Arroy sleeps a Troll, she is required to protect it...yet Yelmalians can never show mercy to a Troll. Now, there's a conflict for ya! Michelle Ringo complains about sexism in Glorantha. I have always thought that Glorantha was fairly balanced in this regard. After all, let's take a look: Lunar Empire - Definitely female oriented, with equal opportunities for both sexes Trolls - Completely matriarchal...with females have much better stats as well Trowjang - Amazon society......with male slaves for breeding most likely Orlanthi Society - Vinga the Adventuress Yelmic Society (supposedly one of the most repressive) - Yelorna I think there are plenty of opportunities for females playing empowered female characters. Rather than have a completely egalitarian world, which seems unrealistic and uniteresting, I prefer that we have the gender biases swing both ways, as we do with Uz. BTW, the campaign I run has a female player in it, and the one I play in has a different female player as well. Colin Watson writes: "I'd say the info from the divination is just based on what the god usually knows (mostly from worshippers prayers). If the Divination gives you a "good reference" then you get accepted. A bad reference, or too-little info would result in rejection." Well then, what's the point of the Divination in the first place? Why not just ask around and get the opinion of the temple members verbally? Nick writes: " Besides, you have in the past protested that you're not the least bit interested in any of the historical, anthropological or cultural material on these lists (I can look up references, if you're going to pull a "Scholars? Moi?" again). Wilful ignorance seemed the easiest answer. " Go ahead and pull the references. I do not think you will find me saying "I am not IN THE LEAST BIT interested..." ; this is you exaggerating my point that the daily was focusing TOO MUCH on such points. I AM in fact, IN THE LEAST BIT interested in such things...just not IN THE MOST BIT interested in having them dominate Gloranthan thinking. As far as "Scholars, Moi?", I assume you are referring to the fact that I claim to have never specifically named anyone on the list as a Scholar. I still stand by this and await a copy of any posting wherein I did name someone as a "Scholar". If "Scholar, Moi?" refers to something else that I have been inconsistent about, please let me know. "I think you will find the people who support that contention are for the most part not historians, psychologists, or anthropologists. Though they may be Americans. " Then we both think differently. How shall we prove it? Joerg writes: "Sez who? Game practice? Resurrection R Us? I stand against a reliable resurrection service in Glorantha, but I don't want to revive this dinosaur thread once again." Well, I must have missed this thread. But it IS a big issue here. You will have to somehow explain to me how, in a Glorantha where Chalanna Arroy has a reusable Resurrection, charges only what the recipient can afford (donations actually), and is willing to heal almost anyone, Resurrection is not widely available? "If the blank lands were positioned there, why not. They aren't, though. " Well, if we are going to say that every place in Glornatha has some significance, then Blank Lands would be right out. But, I still think there must be at least 1 out of the wayish area in each region of Genertela that can hold some sort of Blank Land. "This is why I tossed in apparent death, a phenomenon popular enough to give a man like Poe nightmares." Right, but the Gloranthan sees a dead man brought into a Chalanna Arroy temple, the Chalanna Arroy does a 3 hour ritual, and more often than not, the recipient is raised. The Pre-Ren sees someone rise up from a false death maybe once in a blue moon, at random. A level of predictability is missing in the latter. Cullen writes: "Well, just to judge from your ideas, I also assumed you hadn't studied much history. Of course here in the US, schooling only include US history in most places (as a requirement) and our history isn't very long (since we don't really study the natives)." Nevertheless, always better to ask than assume I am very well-versed in accounting, but I have not chosen to expound upon Accounting systems in Glorantha and did not get involved in the great double entry Lunar bookkeeping debate of some time ago. Mainly because I find it wholly uninteresting. My silence on an issue, or my desire to see less of something on the Daily does not, in and of itself, mean I have no knowledge of the subject. Were the double entry bookkeeping issue to have raged on and the Daily become devoted primarily to the various accouning systems of the Malkioni versus the Kraloralens, then I might rail against all of the accounting appearing on the daily. Nevertheless, I could probably out account most of you on the list (Nick excluded, since I seem to remember that he was an accountant :-)). Similarly, Russia vs the Gemrans in WW2 is being brought up as a means of comparing Kow vs Loskalm. I am an expert on WW2 history, but again, I refrain from putting in my two cents because I consider such a comparison irrelevant. "Then why were YOU comparing ancient and medieval peoples to Glorantha peoples and saying Gloranthan peoples are more devout. If you don't want to make a comparison-- fine don't make one, " Gee, somewhow I see comparing how Glorantha DIFFERS from Ancient Earth as a bit different than saying Glorantha IS just like Earth. I have been railing against Glorantha as a mirror image of Earth. My argument for this devoutness thread IS JUST THAT! I must compare the differences in Glorantha and Earth in order to support my contention. "but don't expect to make wrong-headed statements about history and not get corrected." Well, this is all very high-and-mighty sounding, but I will contend that I have not made any wrong-headed statements, and that you have, and that it is I who have been correcting you. Nyaaa! If you want to cite a FACT that I have misstated, that's one thing, but I think one might want to respect an opinion one disagrees with, even vehemently. "I hope this isn't actually the case... Ancient peoples differed from us at a very profound level. Not biologically, but that isn't necessary. People aren't born with many preconception about the world, so almost all our notions about the world are cultural." They also were similar to us at a much MORE profound level. Maybe the problem is just that I am talking about a level that is more deeply rooted in the human condition...maybe even instinctual. "Haven't you ever heard a discussion between an Atheist and a Baptist Fundamentalist? The basic approach of these two persons is different at a very deep level, yet they come from what is supposed to be the same culture. The discussion generally breaks down fairly quickly because they generally can't seem to agree on a basis for discussion (largely because they don't share even remotely the same epistemology)." Yes, their discussion breaks down on an intellectual level. I am not talking about intellectual or even philosophical levels. I am not talking about paradigms, which certainly change as the world around us changes. I am talking about root human emotions, reactions to stimuli, etc. Most Atheists and the Baptists (and human beings), for example, have a deep rooted fear of the unknown (i.e. death). However, they deal with this commonality in different ways. The Baptist comforts himself with the notion of a Heaven. The Atheist does something else entirely (maybe denies it on a conscious level), but the deep seated commonality remains. "Why would we study ancient peoples if they were just like us? It is so much easier to get information about people around us, who are presumably even more similar than ancient peoples? We study history for precisely the opposite reason, because of those differences. History helps us to see OUR root assumptions about the nature of the world." We study them partially for their differences, as you claim. Their different philosophies, art, literature, etc. can provide insight into our own "root assumptions about the nature of the world" as you wrote. However, if we did not share some sort of basic (maybe almost Jungian) common humanity with Ancient men (and by humanity, I do not mean biologically, I mean we share the same sort of wants, needs, desires, fears, etc.), then it WOULD be useless to study them, because anything we gleaned from them would be utterly irrelevant to our lives. The fact that we do study ancient cultures means theat we use their differences to find alternate ways to deal with common predicaments. Regards, Devin Cutler devinc@aol.com --------------------- From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson) Subject: Orlanth's best buddy Message-ID: <9406221720.AA16577@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk> Date: 22 Jun 94 18:20:32 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4750 David (Cheng) writes: >As I understand the legends, Lokamayadon acted not to eliminate >Orlanth, but to _replace_ him. Either way it's bad news for Orlanth. My question is: if Orlanth knew Lokamayadon was plotting against him in this way, why didn't he do something about it sooner? ___ CW. --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: phalanxes Message-ID: <9406221932.AA01031@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 22 Jun 94 07:33:05 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4751 re: Chalana Arroy and Chaos In my own campaigns, CA healers have never been required to "defend all life" and when the party is attacked by broos, trolls, or even elves, the healer is not expected to keep the party from killing their foes. However, if the party takes prisoners, the healer should feel obliged to keep the PCs from killing them out of hand, or causing excessive pain in so doing. On the other hand, the healer's not required to heal them. Now, chaos is sort of a problem. Obviously, chaos is bad and must be wiped out and cult dogmas and restrictions don't count vs. chaos. My own interpretation is that the exact amount of kindness and light a CA must exhibit varies with her temple, but under no circumstances is she allowed to kill or wield weapons, even against chaos. For that matter, I play that she's not allowed to let her companions kill chaos creatures that she's Slept or Befuddled. This is NOT because she's worried about the chaos things' welfare -- it is because of the adverse moral effect of letting the CA healer do such violent activities, even in a good cause. I would view it as a (minor) violation of cult rules to permit an ally to kill a chaos creature that a CA healer had slept. However, it would not be considered a major Spirit of Retribution-alerting sin. My own CA Healers knowingly refrain from casting Sleep and Befuddle on chaos entities for just this reason. Maloney mentions: >phalanxes are pretty inflexible, fragile entities unless they have >anchored flanks and/or excellent flank support. The Persians used them for army cores, and presumably that's what the Lunars do, too. The Heartland corps are only a small part of the whole Lunar army. The Sun Domers, as I mentioned in the last mailing, are probably not a balanced army. >there is the heroic mob of the Germanics and the medievals. I wonder >how they would have done against a disciplined, well-ordered legion. >They never faced one, you know. By the time the Germans started >invading Rome, things had sunk pretty low. Sure they faced 'em -- the Gallic mobs were not dissimilar during the Roman conquest. Also, the Teutoburgerwald was vs. German troops and the Romans were at their best then. The Germans fought the Romans plenty of times before the Legion had deteriorated. We also have a fine example of what the Romans would have done if they had to face medievals -- the Byzantine Empire was a direct descendent of the ancient Romans, and they called themselves Romans. Their army was once legions, and gradually transformed into the Byzantine system of warfare, with cataphracts and a central core of infantry. Cullen Grace ponders: >Here's a fun question: What was the name of the Red Goddess in >life, before her apotheosis? My answer: Teelo Norri Paul Reilly: >Sandy can say something about Pamaltela and gender roles here. Many Pamaltelan gods are quite gender-specific. Few (if any) men join Aleshmara, and few women sign up for Cronisper. Almost everyone picks gods to worship that have the same gender as themselves -- with some notable exceptions like Jmijie or Bolongo. Even Pamalt, whose worship is open to all, is more common among men than women (who often worship Faranar instead). Because of the resultant differences in magic, men and women have somewhat different roles, but the culture is generally female-dominated in a subtle way. The Chieftain of a tribe must be male, but his office can be taken away from him at will by the old women of the tribe, who can then give it to any qualified man they want -- presumably someone who'll do what they want. In this manner (argue the Doraddi), equality is served. Technically, women own all property except the man's personal clothing and his weapons (if any). In practice, men often accumulate other little widgets that they keep to themselves. The norm is for a man to go to live in his wife's tribe, and usually in his mother-in-law's tent. On the other hand (as with trolls), males often make better PCs, because they're likelier to go wandering around and get into trouble -- they are still the hunters and (most) warriors, with women doing more important political and economic tasks. But plenty of women become hunters and warriors, just as many men restrict themselves to gathering roots and plant fodder. >Hrestoli might or might not have female magicians, warriors, and >rulers.It's not established. I want them to. >Do the matriarchal societies breed "radical masculinists"? Are the >[Zorak] Zorani such a group? Kindly refer to ZZ by his full name or at least the first -- my third son's third name is "Zoran". I'd not thought of the ZZ as a reaction to the Uz female dominance, but the more I look on this concept, the more I like it -- certainly I picture most ZZ members as male. No doubt ZZ is a route for a mere male to gain political power in his community, which may explain why the struggles between ZZ and KL in many troll communities have such political ramifications -- the Kaarg's Sons are loyalists who obey the KL women, while the ZZ are hostile and not necessarily obedient to the women rulers at all. --------------------- From: swj@liverpool.ac.uk (Mr S.W. Jones) Subject: Sartar again Message-ID: <199406221650.RAA28656@uxh.liv.ac.uk> Date: 22 Jun 94 18:50:57 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4752 Hello, again. Something funny going on here, being an amateur, anyway, should work this time. How do, It was mentioned about a week or so ago, that people wanted stuff on Sartar, well here's some from my notes. Hope that there agreeable, I'm sure that there is official background covering northern Sartar which I haven't got, however I don't think that these spirits will cause any consternation. Happy reading. SPIRIT CULTS OF NORTHERN SARTAR. As with many lands, Sartar has small cults based around the worship of local spirits; these are just a few of those to be found in my campaign, set in Northern Sartar, lands of the Tres, Bachad, Dinacoli, Vantaros and Amad Tribes. Bone Dancer. (Illusion, Earth, Death) Among the scattered bones in the Vale of Bones, towards the south where the land lies low, is a prominent, if small hill. Atop this hill is an almost creamy white, almost hemispherical rock, rising some 2-3m. On approaching the rock, it can be seen to be about 6m across and submerged into the ground. On the west side of the rock is a small hole, perhaps 0.5m wide, it looks freshly dug and extends downwards some 4-5m against the side of the rock. Investigating deeper will reveal a hole in the side of the rock into which a chamber extends. Again this is some 5-6m wide. It is the inside of the rock, which is in fact the skull of a giant who fell in the I Fought, We Won battle, which culminated in Snake Pipe Hollow, some miles to the north west. It is here that the spirit Bone Dancer can be contacted. Bone Dancer remembers the conflict, and will remember most of those who fell in the Valley, should he be given time. Bone Dancer is lonely and senile, but mostly senile. He occupies his time talking to himself, and even when worshipped may take some time to notice. Bone Dancer may have some links with the cult of Humakt, although you'd have to wait quite a while for the answer. Bone Dancer will teach the patient and worthy the spell Corpse Talk. Corpse Talk (1pt. Divine). Forces the spirit of a recent corpse (less than 3 days) back into the body, with the intention of questioning it. The spirit will remain to answer three questions, about it's life or death and no more; or until the duration of the spell expires. Grey Man. (Shadow, Disorder) The Grey Man lurks in shadows all over the north, and is occassionally found in the groves and copses that frequently dot the landscape near Herongreen. No one knows who Grey Man is, or was, except perhaps Coal Eyes- the shaman who lives near Herongreen who can find him sometimes. Grey Man will teach the divine spell Shadow Cloak. Shadow Cloak (1pt. Divine) This spell makes the recipient look somewhat insubstantial and dark, as though partially in shadow. This spell works much better depending on the light available, for instance under the mid-day sun, subtract 5% from the attackers skill, or scan roll. In shadows, or at dawn/dusk upto 50%. Great Heron. (Sky, Harmony) The great Heron is the spirit of the Herons at Heron Green, who roost just south of the village near the Wind Whistle trees. The Great Heron can be contacted in the Green by the appropriate spell which she teaches to the faithful, Summon Great Herons. Summon Great Herons (3pt. Ritual Spirit) This spell when cast in northern Sartar will summon several of the Great Herons who nest in Herongreen- these Herons will bear the summoner to the limits of their strength (20- 30kms). Chalk Man. (Earth, Man) The Chalk Man resides in the Chalk Man Valley, towards the north eastern side where a large figure of a man is cut out into the chalk. Legend tells that the chalk man figure was left when a giant slept there as the Earth Mother was casting the seeds on the ground, although some say that the Dragonewts cut the ground with magic, to make a symbol showing where people lived just before the Dragonkill War. Regardless of myth, the spirit who can be contacted there will say nothing of its origins. It is the wyter spirit of a tribe of people who lived before the dragons came, in the hills thereabout, and although they have passed beyond memory, it remains. This spirit will teach a variety of spirit spells- Protection, Countermagic, Spirit Screen, Heal, to tribes who will accept its protection. It currently protect the Vantaros tribesmen,of Ironspike as well as their own wyter. Seperately, the spirit will teach worshippers Find Settlement. Find Settlement (1pt. Divine) This acts as a standard Find spell, with the exceptions that the range is extended to some 10km, thereby directing the caster to the nearest settlement, whether friendly or not; and the duration is extended until a settlement is within range. Speaks in Whispers. (Air, Spirit) Speaks in Whispers came from Prax, shouting the coming of Urox before the Greater Darkness. Speaks in Whispers had a different name then and was much louder. But like many of the faithful of Urox, he fell in the fight with the Devil. Speaks in Whispers did not perish though and crawled away confused. Since then, Speaks in Whispers has spoken quietly, because he feels he ran away, and doesn't want Urox to hear him and find him. Speaks in Whispers can be found by shouting his name anywhere in the northern lands, but more specifically near the Indigo Mountains where he has a special cave where he hides. He comes to tell the shouter to be quiet, rather forceful winds batter the shouter, but Speaks in Whispers will normally talk to the persistent. Speaks in Whispers learnt a new magic once he stopped shouting, which he will teach to those who worship,it is called Voice Taker. Voice Taker (1pt. Divine) This spell will render whoever the caster chooses speechless, provided magic points are overcome. Speaks in Whispers likes casting it on those who shout. -------------------- Hope that those are okay, and wasn't someone else going to write about Sartar as well. I have some descriptions of places in the North- Alone, Herongreen, Amadhall etc., if people are interested, I'll put them on the digest. The promised Donander cult write-up, is on it's way, however, in the light of there being an official one in WW18, which I lack, I thought I'd wait. Cheers, -Simon.