From gadbois@mcc.com Sat Jul 29 15:57:12 1995 Received: from cash.wharton.upenn.edu (CASH.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU [130.91.160.43]) by hops.wharton.upenn.edu (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA02233 for; Sat, 29 Jul 1995 15:57:11 -0400 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by cash.wharton.upenn.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id PAA27781 for loren@hops.wharton.upenn.edu; Sat, 29 Jul 1995 15:57:11 -0400 Received: from turtle.mcc.com (turtle.mcc.com [128.62.1.215]) by cash.wharton.upenn.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA27753 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 1995 15:55:58 -0400 Received: from hippo.mcc.com (hippo.mcc.com [128.62.11.50]) by turtle.mcc.com (8.6.10/mcc.8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA10322 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 1995 14:55:32 -0500 Received: from zorak-zoran.mcc.com by hippo.mcc.com (5.65/isd-other_921116_15:19) id AA26837; Sat, 29 Jul 1995 14:55:25 -0500 Mail-From: From RuneQuest-Request@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM Thu Jun 23 02:43:41 1994 Received: from Sun.COM (Sun.COM [192.9.9.1]) by news.cs.utexas.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA19142 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 1994 02:43:40 -0500 Received: from snail.Sun.COM (snail.Corp.Sun.COM) by Sun.COM (sun-barr.Sun.COM) id AA24220; Thu, 23 Jun 94 00:30:32 PDT Received: from Holland.Sun.COM (isunnl) by snail.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25275; Thu, 23 Jun 94 00:29:57 PDT Received: from glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM by Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1e) id AA11164; Thu, 23 Jun 94 09:29:51 +0200 Received: by glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20845; Thu, 23 Jun 94 09:28:29 +0200 Date: Thu, 23 Jun 94 09:28:29 +0200 Message-Id: <9406230728.AA20845@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM> X-PH: V4.2@cash.wharton.upenn.edu From: RuneQuest-Request@glorantha.holland.sun.com (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@glorantha.holland.sun.com (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@glorantha.holland.sun.com (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 23 Jun 1994, part 4 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@holland.sun.com Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk Resent-To: Loren Miller Resent-From: David Gadbois Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 14:55-0500 Resent-Message-Id: <19950729195515.2.GADBOIS@ZORAK-ZORAN.MCC.COM> X-UIDL: 807050821.012 Status: RO --------------------- From: bchugg@leland.stanford.edu (Barron Chugg) Subject: Machine Gods and Hero Pathes Message-ID: <199406222045.NAA28828@leland.Stanford.EDU> Date: 22 Jun 94 05:48:07 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4753 Hello all, I've been following the recent "What Gods know and what they can do" thread with some trepedation. Almost all of my fundemental RQ knowledge comes from the nice, simple RQ2 days, back when God Learners were strange and distant. So many of my ideas were framed from the perspective of someone in the world. Sure, everyone in Sartar knows Orlanth is active in the world everyday. With this idea as a jumping off point it was trivial to GM all knowing gods. I guess that puts me in Devin's camp in believing the gods are "activist". Well, lately, reading the well thought out arguments to the contrary I was brought to a Gloranthan crisis of faith. Sure, I could always fall back to the "In my campaign..." line, but I think there is/can be a more unified notion. Lets face it, if you decide gods' powers are increasing in the world and Greg et all decide they are decreasing (as hinted at in KoS) you will have to go into more and more gyrations to fit new material into your campaign. So, armed with these paradoxes I have a potentail solution to present for deconstruction (:-)). Note: I formulated this walking across campus, so it is not deeply thought out, but it seems reasonable (a sure sign of heresy!). The first problem I had was the runemagic vs. gods seperate from the world paradox. If you ask me Sunspear is pretty active, and Ressurection and Sever Spirit are grossly so. So what gives? Here is my solution. We are all aware that powerful wills in Glorantha can make changes in the very basis of the world (e.g. any hero/superhero, anyone who has ascended to godhood, etc). To me, it is not necessary to leave the "mundane" world to do this (i.e. a HQ in the classic form is not needed). To me, Glorantha is a mystical enough place (what with magical ecology and all) that you can HQ in the everyday world (now, once you start you may form some bridge to the hero plane, but that's another issue). With all that as preamble, I'll now start the actual idea. Imagine a person's progression in a cult as a heroquest of sorts. The quest itself is to follow the path of their god, to manifest their virtues (and in many cases weaknesses (Storm Bull berserk for example)) and obtain some of their abilities. When you start out as a member of a culture that follows a particular divine array you are taught the virtues that that culture (array) favors. This is sort of the first step. Later, at adulthood, you are initiated into more of the secrets of the religon. Still you are following the path of the god, a path laid down in the Godtime. At this point a virtous initiate (one that has followed the path diligently) can begin to manifest some of the powers of the diety (runemagic). My postulate is that runemagic is not a manifestation of the diety reaching into the mundane plane, but of the initiate laying their will upon the world and manifesting a HQ-like trait. This is the crux of my idea: that runemagic comes from within. Now, you cannot get it without following some path, that is to say, by emulating your diety. These pathes were created in the Godtime and are woven into the very fabric of reality. Religon, in my view, is just the following of these pathes. This removes the troubling question of the gods acting directly in the world and still maintains a concept of a "good worshipper". A bad, or false worshipper is not doing a good job following the path and thus will not advance or get much magic. The caveat to this is that a clever follower (of the GL style) would be able to do all the forms of the rituals and even convince themselves enough to gain the power without the virtue. Sort of like the double identity a spy must maintain. For an illuminate this dissuciation is second nature (even to the point of dissociating themselves from any sense of morality, IMHO). Ogres are a more interesting group. My theory is that by decieving lawful gods they _are_ following their path, more a racial one than a thiestic one. Since this is becoming rather long, I'll just hit a few more ideas. The first is tha of spirits of reprisal. I like the idea that these are an aspect of the internal guilt of the offender. My thought is that the person, having been raised and acculturated (physicists shouldn't use words like that...) into a certain religon would have some hidden guilt no matter how hard they deny it. For some this would manifest as rashes (Impests), but for those that have progressed farther the effect would be more profound (Flint Slingers or whatever). As a final note, it was recently mentioned that an Orlanthi priest once tried to replace Orlanth. This is easily explained from my idea, he simply taught the people to follow new pathes (that led to the priest himself) and killed all those that tried to do it the old way. So, comments are welcome. What I was trying to do here was square the idea that people in the world have (that the gods are active in everyday life) with the Compromise and the GL discoveries. I think that this idea goes some way towards doing that very thing. Play arround with it and see what you think. Barron Chugg --------------------- From: keith.s.stevens@uwrf.edu Subject: A spell and a question Message-ID: <199406222115.AA00684@chekov.acc.uwrf.edu> Date: 22 Jun 94 11:15:33 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4754 Howdy yall, I've created some new spells for my campaign, and I'm posting one here for your comments. Spirit Spell Far Dart (Variable) This spell increases the effective range and maximum range of a missle weapon. This spell is cast on a bow, crossbow, sling or blow gun, and therefore is compatible with either spedart or multimissle. Normally, the range is increased by 20m for each point of Far Dart. For heaver missles, the range is halved (10m per point). Abstracted, for every multiple over 2d6, half the range. This spell will also work from non-mechanical devices (ie your hand), for thrown rocks, daggers, axes, spears, or hammers ( or anyting else ), but it's effective range is halved every 1d6 instead. -- Also I've got a question. Is there a source (or could someone tell me) what are all the known Runes? I know the standard runes, I look through Gods of Gloranthia, and I can try to guess what the Runes are that are shown, but I'd like something to backup my guesses. I'd also like to know who the sources are for each rune. Thanks, Keith btw. For the person who asked, Yes I do live in River Falls, Wi --------------------- From: bchugg@leland.stanford.edu (Barron Chugg) Subject: Women in Glorantha Message-ID: <199406222116.OAA02285@leland.Stanford.EDU> Date: 22 Jun 94 06:19:04 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4755 Hello all. In the June 21st 1994 Daily, Michelle Ringo writes: a bunch about women in Glorantha, esspecially the Hrestoli/Rokari regions. First off, I'd like to second her oppinions. I think a lot of the discussion of the H/R have been too influenced by our worlds reilgious/social history. The comments in SiP in particular (note, I like the idea of using Arlaten's ideas as a contrast to Pavic society, but I'd also like to believe that his oppinions are not typical of a Westerner). When I was reading through the back issues of the daily I noted a short lived thread about Women in Glorantha (in Dec 93, I think, no promises). Since I have often run for groups that are primarily women, I have had to face this many times. The solution I usually arrive at is that "most" women follow traditional roles (as do "most" men), but that there are no huge barriers to their chosing other roles. I loved the idea of the Goodwife (or Maiden) -> Healer/Knight -> Sorceress -> Noblewoman progression that was mentioned a while ago. I've added the Knight option in parallel with the Healer to allow parity (even if it is rarely taken). This is far superior to the "one woman's caste" idea, IMO. Sure, the Brithini can have a single female caste, but they are arch-conservative nutballs (also IMHO). What Malkionism needs is a good, crusading female saint, one that could have broken down the Brithini ideal and opened the castes to women (Saint Michelle? :-)). From my perspective (and that of the various women I have gamed with) not many of them would like to run in a world that is terribly sexually backward. Sure, the occasional woman fighting the system can be fun (Lady Vega is a great example as Nick points out), but it would get aweful monotonous after a while. I kind of take the view that men and women are treated as equals until proven otherwise (like the conservative and stuck up (IMHO) Dara Happans). Sure, there should be cultures that are less sexually equal, but both the Dara Happans and the Trowjang (how _is_ that spelled) Amazons should be the extremes, not the norm. -- In the June 22nd 1994 Daily, Nick Brooke writes: another bunch about women in Glorantha. Here, here. I rise in strong support of Mr. Brooke, a very inclusive and helpful post. Hey, that's two great posts that go great together (sorry). -- One thing I'd like to see in Gloranthan publications: Female, Lunar military officers. The Lunars seem to have no problem generating female Heroes (Hon-Eel, Jar-Eel, etc), but the everyday army seems dominated by men (probably that insidious Dara Happan influence (am I ragging on these guys or what!)). Let's see some women as officers, tax collectors and (best of all) provincial governors. In the Lunar Empire esspecially, women in power should not be the exception. Enough of this for today, Barron Chugg --------------------- From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham) Subject: Urox vs Chalana Arroy Message-ID: <199406222124.AA15008@radiomail.net> Date: 22 Jun 94 21:24:32 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4756 Bryan Maloney said >A Chalana Arroy would "do" nothing beyond witholding healing and reporting >the transgression if it were cute and fuzzy bunnies that had gotten killed. >She might scold the Storm Bull, but Chalana Arroy do not take violent >retributive action. Why not? All Healers aren't equal. Just because they've taken an oath doesn't mean they maintain it under stress. ("Hi, your father chopped off my arm while I was him, and your sash says you have to put it back.") Nor does their oath (or even their religious virtues Forgiving, Generous, Merciful, Modest, Trusting) dictate other aspects of their personality. If she happened to be vengeful (she's not supposed to be, but how many people are saints?) she might cast Sleep on the Storm Bull before he enters battle, robbing him of the chance to fight chaos. >This is the result of assuming that a >cult writeup (RoC Chalana Arroy) is 100% perfect and true. Why would Chalana >Arroy give protection to Chaos? Because Chalana Arroy is an Orlanthi deity. Orlanthi culture places a high value on honor. If she's sworn that she will protect all creatures she sleeps, then by gumbo, she has to protect them. Resolution might be to have the Storm Bull character swear an oath to the healer that he won't do it again. Their cults are associated in a way that suggests this. The healer could swear an oath that she won't Sleep chaos unless she deems it absolutely necessary. >If it had already been identified as chaotic, she should have known better You don't cast Sleep to protect creatures. You protect creatures as a side effect (in Ralios it's probably a geas) of having Slept them. >A Phalanx is a pretty worthless formation except in specific circumstances. It was worth quite a lot until something better was invented. Alexander used it to great advantage, and it defeated larger armies. >there is the heroic mob of the Germanics and the medievals. >I wonder how they would have done against a disciplined, well-ordered legion. Didn't Julius Caesar write extensively on this? Since Caesar did the writing, it's not giving away much to say the legion won. (Not always, of course, but in the end.) Kuri suggested a HeroPoint rule. Sounds reasonable -- I like the way the GM can prevent it. I'd suggest the GM can only prevent it when it affects someone else, so players can always use it to improve their Parry. --------------------- From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) Subject: Allia alios placent Message-ID: <940622211703_100270.337_BHL47-1@CompuServe.COM> Date: 22 Jun 94 21:17:04 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4757 _________________ Bryan speculated: > Then, of course, there is the heroic mob of the Germanics and the > medievals. I wonder how they would have done against a disciplined, > well-ordered legion. In what way does this mediaeval, Germanic heroic mob differ from the late Iron Age Celtic and Germanic heroic mobs the Romans faced frequently? The battle of the Allia springs to mind: : The main body of the army, at the first sound of the Gallic war-cry on : their flank and in their rear, hardly waited even to see their strange : enemy from the ends of the earth; they made no attempt at resistance; : they had not courage even to answer his shouted challenge, but fled : before they had lost a single man. (Livy, V.38) Bugger legions: heroic mobs are clearly the way forward! Granted, that was against pre-Marian legions who were labouring under a curse or two -- not that that would make a difference to twentieth century South Californians (the closest cultural analogue I can imagine for 4th century BC Romans). You could also read Caesar's 'Gallic War': while he won in the end, the Romans lost several times, notably in Britain against our home-grown heroic mob (with chariots!). Also, what on earth happened to general Varus in the Teutobergerwald, in your version of events? Three whole legions, gone! A final note: the late Roman army was pretty much a Germanic warband, while I believe prominent members of early Germanic warbands were, by and large, recently discharged from the Roman army... ____________________ David Dunham writes: > I think the hobby is really bad about drawing in women, with its often > exploitive cover art... I felt that the cover of the German-language edition of 'Apple Lane' was a thrilling advertisement for all that's best about Glorantha: mighty-thewed barbarians, large-breasted women, careering chariots... shame it had sweet fuck all to do with the product. Where is Wilm when we need him? ==== Nick ==== --------------------- From: Argrath@aol.com Subject: Slave Boys of Babeester Gor Message-ID: <9406222204.tn57909@aol.com> Date: 23 Jun 94 02:04:11 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4758 Re: Goddess Switch in Slontos Even better. Keep those nasty GL's out of benign, wise, yet tragically doomed EWF. (But how'd Dendara get there?) IMHO, the EWF has been ignored on the Daily. Anybody out there thinking about waltzing and hunting bands? Maybe we can give the GL's a break for a while. Re: Castes in Teshnos Indian castes are much more complex than Western Gloranthan ones. Rather than being a four- (or five-) way division, it is a division into hundreds of groups. The Brahmin/Kshatriya/etc. split is just varna or "color," not jati, or birth group. A person's jati determines customs and ritual practices, dietary rules, occupation, and of course marriage. A jati is like an Orlanthi clan, but is endogamous (marrying only within the jati), rather than exogamous. I can see something like this in Teshnos. "I am of the Phatum caste of Warriors--maintain your distance, impure stranger." See Tekumel for lots of this. Re: Veneration of Saints <--> Veneration of Ancestors Here's another vote in favor of it. Re: women players and characters I've played a number of female characters and have generally been in groups (both players and characters) which were mixed in gender, without it being thought remarkable. I've seen many female warriors, most recently a scary Babeester Gori. I'd be too embarrassed to play in a "Slave Girls of Gor" game, unless it was the Slave (warrior) Girls of (Babeester) Gor. BTW, Koreans, like the Byzantines, numbered their daughters. Re: radical masculists, such as Zorak Zorani That would give new meaning to "take back the night"! Remember the Alamo-- Martin --------------------- From: x820660@fcusqnt.fcu.edu.tw (Bill Robertson) Subject: Protecting Chaos Creatures? Message-ID: <9406230330.AA12511@fcusqnt.fcu.edu.tw> Date: 23 Jun 94 19:30:35 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4759 Chris Cooke explained his conundrum:warrior kills chaotic beast that was slept by healer. Now the healer is angry, and the rest of the party doesn't care. I may be wrong, but I thought that CA's protection doesn't extend to chaotic beings. -Bill ---------------------