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From: (Barron Chugg)
Subject: Machine Gods and Hero Pathes
Message-ID: <199406222045.NAA28828@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Date: 22 Jun 94 05:48:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4753

Hello all,

  I've been following the recent "What Gods know and what they can do"
thread with some trepedation.  Almost all of my fundemental RQ knowledge
comes from the nice, simple RQ2 days, back when God Learners were strange
and distant.  So many of my ideas were framed from the perspective of
someone in the world.  Sure, everyone in Sartar knows Orlanth is active in
the world everyday.  With this idea as a jumping off point it was trivial
to GM all knowing gods.

  I guess that puts me in Devin's camp in believing the gods are
"activist".  Well, lately, reading the well thought out arguments to the
contrary I was brought to a Gloranthan crisis of faith.  Sure, I could
always fall back to the "In my campaign..." line, but I think there is/can
be a more unified notion.  Lets face it, if you decide gods' powers are
increasing in the world and Greg et all decide they are decreasing (as
hinted at in KoS) you will have to go into more and more gyrations to fit
new material into your campaign.  So, armed with these paradoxes I have a
potentail solution to present for deconstruction (:-)).  Note: I formulated
this walking across campus, so it is not deeply thought out, but it seems
reasonable (a sure sign of heresy!).

  The first problem I had was the runemagic vs. gods seperate from the
world paradox.  If you ask me Sunspear is pretty active, and Ressurection
and Sever Spirit are grossly so.  So what gives?  Here is my solution.  We
are all aware that powerful wills in Glorantha can make changes in the very
basis of the world (e.g. any hero/superhero, anyone who has ascended to
godhood, etc).  To me, it is not necessary to leave the "mundane" world to
do this (i.e. a HQ in the classic form is not needed).  To me, Glorantha is
a mystical enough place (what with magical ecology and all) that you can HQ
in the everyday world (now, once you start you may form some bridge to the
hero plane, but that's another issue).  With all that as preamble, I'll now
start the actual idea.

  Imagine a person's progression in a cult as a heroquest of sorts.  The
quest itself is to follow the path of their god, to manifest their virtues
(and in many cases weaknesses (Storm Bull berserk for example)) and obtain
some of their abilities.  When you start out as a member of a culture that
follows a particular divine array you are taught the virtues that that
culture (array) favors.  This is sort of the first step.  Later, at
adulthood, you are initiated into more of the secrets of the religon. 
Still you are following the path of the god, a path laid down in the
Godtime.  At this point a virtous initiate (one that has followed the path
diligently) can begin to manifest some of the powers of the diety
(runemagic).  My postulate is that runemagic is not a manifestation of the
diety reaching into the mundane plane, but of the initiate laying their
will upon the world and manifesting a HQ-like trait.

  This is the crux of my idea: that runemagic comes from within.  Now, you
cannot get it without following some path, that is to say, by emulating
your diety.  These pathes were created in the Godtime and are woven into
the very fabric of reality.  Religon, in my view, is just the following of
these pathes.  This removes the troubling question of the gods acting
directly in the world and still maintains a concept of a "good worshipper".
 A bad, or false worshipper is not doing a good job following the path and
thus will not advance or get much magic.  

  The caveat to this is that a clever follower (of the GL style) would be
able to do all the forms of the rituals and even convince themselves enough
to gain the power without the virtue.  Sort of like the double identity a
spy must maintain.  For an illuminate this dissuciation is second nature
(even to the point of dissociating themselves from any sense of morality,
IMHO).  Ogres are a more interesting group.  My theory is that by decieving
lawful gods they _are_ following their path, more a racial one than a
thiestic one.

  Since this is becoming rather long, I'll just hit a few more ideas.  The
first is tha of spirits of reprisal.  I like the idea that these are an
aspect of the internal guilt of the offender.  My thought is that the
person, having been raised and acculturated (physicists shouldn't use words
like that...) into a certain religon would have some hidden guilt no matter
how hard they deny it.  For some this would manifest as rashes (Impests),
but for those that have progressed farther the effect would be more
profound (Flint Slingers or whatever).

  As a final note, it was recently mentioned that an Orlanthi priest once
tried to replace Orlanth.  This is easily explained from my idea, he simply
taught the people to follow new pathes (that led to the priest himself) and
killed all those that tried to do it the old way.

  So, comments are welcome.  What I was trying to do here was square the
idea that people in the world have (that the gods are active in everyday
life) with the Compromise and the GL discoveries.  I think that this idea
goes some way towards doing that very thing.  Play arround with it and see
what you think.

Barron Chugg


Subject: A spell and a question
Message-ID: <>
Date: 22 Jun 94 11:15:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4754

Howdy yall,

I've created some new spells for my campaign, and I'm posting one here for your

Spirit Spell
Far Dart (Variable)
This spell increases the effective range and maximum range of a missle weapon.
This spell is cast on a bow, crossbow, sling or blow gun, and therefore is
compatible with either spedart or multimissle.  Normally, the range is
increased by 20m for each point of Far Dart.  For heaver missles, the range is
halved (10m per point).  Abstracted, for every multiple over 2d6, half the
range.  This spell will also work from non-mechanical devices (ie your hand),
for thrown rocks, daggers, axes, spears, or hammers ( or anyting else ), but
it's effective range is halved every 1d6 instead.


Also I've got a question.  Is there a source (or could someone tell me) what
are all the known Runes?  I know the standard runes, I look through Gods of
Gloranthia, and I can try to guess what the Runes are that are shown, but I'd
like something to backup my guesses.
I'd also like to know who the sources are for each rune.


btw.	For the person who asked, Yes I do live in River Falls, Wi


From: (Barron Chugg)
Subject: Women in Glorantha
Message-ID: <199406222116.OAA02285@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Date: 22 Jun 94 06:19:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4755

Hello all.

  In the June 21st 1994 Daily, Michelle Ringo writes: a bunch about women
in Glorantha, esspecially the Hrestoli/Rokari regions.

  First off, I'd like to second her oppinions.  I think a lot of the
discussion of the H/R have been too influenced by our worlds
reilgious/social history.  The comments in SiP in particular (note, I like
the idea of using Arlaten's ideas as a contrast to Pavic society, but I'd
also like to believe that his oppinions are not typical of a Westerner). 
When I was reading through the back issues of the daily I noted a short
lived thread about Women in Glorantha (in Dec 93, I think, no promises). 
Since I have often run for groups that are primarily women, I have had to
face this many times.  The solution I usually arrive at is that "most"
women follow traditional roles (as do "most" men), but that there are no
huge barriers to their chosing other roles.

  I loved the idea of the Goodwife (or Maiden) -> Healer/Knight ->
Sorceress -> Noblewoman progression that was mentioned a while ago.  I've
added the Knight option in parallel with the Healer to allow parity (even
if it is rarely taken).  This is far superior to the "one woman's caste"
idea, IMO.  Sure, the Brithini can have a single female caste, but they are
arch-conservative nutballs (also IMHO).  What Malkionism needs is a good,
crusading female saint, one that could have broken down the Brithini ideal
and opened the castes to women (Saint Michelle? :-)).

  From my perspective (and that of the various women I have gamed with) not
many of them would like to run in a world that is terribly sexually
backward.  Sure, the occasional woman fighting the system can be fun (Lady
Vega is a great example as Nick points out), but it would get aweful
monotonous after a while.  I kind of take the view that men and women are
treated as equals until proven otherwise (like the conservative and stuck
up (IMHO) Dara Happans).  Sure, there should be cultures that are less
sexually equal, but both the Dara Happans and the Trowjang (how _is_ that
spelled) Amazons should be the extremes, not the norm.


  In the June 22nd 1994 Daily, Nick Brooke writes: another bunch about
women in Glorantha.

  Here, here.  I rise in strong support of Mr. Brooke, a very inclusive and
helpful post.  Hey, that's two great posts that go great together (sorry).


  One thing I'd like to see in Gloranthan publications: Female, Lunar
military officers.  The Lunars seem to have no problem generating female
Heroes (Hon-Eel, Jar-Eel, etc), but the everyday army seems dominated by
men (probably that insidious Dara Happan influence (am I ragging on these
guys or what!)).  Let's see some women as officers, tax collectors and
(best of all) provincial governors.  In the Lunar Empire esspecially, women
in power should not be the exception.

  Enough of this for today,

Barron Chugg


From: (David Dunham)
Subject: Urox vs Chalana Arroy
Message-ID: <>
Date: 22 Jun 94 21:24:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4756

Bryan Maloney said
>A Chalana Arroy would "do" nothing beyond witholding healing and reporting
>the transgression if it were cute and fuzzy bunnies that had gotten killed.
>She might scold the Storm Bull, but Chalana Arroy do not take violent 
>retributive action.

Why not? All Healers aren't equal. Just because they've taken an oath
doesn't mean they maintain it under stress. ("Hi, your father chopped off
my arm while I was 
 him, and your sash says you have to put it back.") Nor does their oath (or
even their religious virtues Forgiving, Generous, Merciful, Modest,
Trusting) dictate other aspects of their personality.

If she happened to be vengeful (she's not supposed to be, but how many
people are saints?) she might cast Sleep on the Storm Bull before he enters
battle, robbing him of the chance to fight chaos.

>This is the result of assuming that a
>cult writeup (RoC Chalana Arroy) is 100% perfect and true.  Why would Chalana
>Arroy give protection to Chaos?

Because Chalana Arroy is an Orlanthi deity. Orlanthi culture places a high
value on honor. If she's sworn that she will protect all creatures she
sleeps, then by gumbo, she has to protect them.

Resolution might be to have the Storm Bull character swear an oath to the
healer that he won't do it again. Their cults are associated in a way that
suggests this. The healer could swear an oath that she won't Sleep chaos
unless she deems it absolutely necessary.

>If it had already been identified as chaotic, she should have known better

You don't cast Sleep to protect creatures. You protect creatures as a side
effect (in Ralios it's probably a geas) of having Slept them.

>A Phalanx is a pretty worthless formation except in specific circumstances.

It was worth quite a lot until something better was invented. Alexander
used it to great advantage, and it defeated larger armies.

>there is the heroic mob of the Germanics and the medievals.
>I wonder how they would have done against a disciplined, well-ordered legion.

Didn't Julius Caesar write extensively on this? Since Caesar did the
writing, it's not giving away much to say the legion won. (Not always, of
course, but in the end.)

Kuri suggested a HeroPoint rule.
Sounds reasonable -- I like the way the GM can prevent it. I'd suggest the
GM can only prevent it when it affects someone else, so players can always
use it to improve their Parry.


From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Allia alios placent
Message-ID: <940622211703_100270.337_BHL47-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 22 Jun 94 21:17:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4757

Bryan speculated:

> Then, of course, there is the heroic mob of the Germanics and the
> medievals. I wonder how they would have done against a disciplined,
> well-ordered legion.

In what way does this mediaeval, Germanic heroic mob differ from the late 
Iron Age Celtic and Germanic heroic mobs the Romans faced frequently? The 
battle of the Allia springs to mind:

: The main body of the army, at the first sound of the Gallic war-cry on
: their flank and in their rear, hardly waited even to see their strange
: enemy from the ends of the earth; they made no attempt at resistance;
: they had not courage even to answer his shouted challenge, but fled
: before they had lost a single man. (Livy, V.38)

Bugger legions: heroic mobs are clearly the way forward! Granted, that was 
against pre-Marian legions who were labouring under a curse or two -- not 
that that would make a difference to twentieth century South Californians 
(the closest cultural analogue I can imagine for 4th century BC Romans).

You could also read Caesar's 'Gallic War': while he won in the end, the 
Romans lost several times, notably in Britain against our home-grown heroic 
mob (with chariots!). Also, what on earth happened to general Varus in the 
Teutobergerwald, in your version of events? Three whole legions, gone!

A final note: the late Roman army was pretty much a Germanic warband, while 
I believe prominent members of early Germanic warbands were, by and large, 
recently discharged from the Roman army...

David Dunham writes:

> I think the hobby is really bad about drawing in women, with its often
> exploitive cover art...

I felt that the cover of the German-language edition of 'Apple Lane' was a 
thrilling advertisement for all that's best about Glorantha: mighty-thewed 
barbarians, large-breasted women, careering chariots... shame it had sweet 
fuck all to do with the product. Where is Wilm when we need him?



Subject: Slave Boys of Babeester Gor
Message-ID: <>
Date: 23 Jun 94 02:04:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4758

Re: Goddess Switch in Slontos
     Even better.  Keep those nasty GL's out of benign, wise, yet
tragically doomed EWF.  (But how'd Dendara get there?)  IMHO, the EWF has
been ignored on the Daily.  Anybody out there thinking about waltzing and
hunting bands?  Maybe we can give the GL's a break for a while.

Re: Castes in Teshnos
     Indian castes are much more complex than Western Gloranthan
ones.  Rather than being a four- (or five-) way division, it is a
division into hundreds of groups.  The Brahmin/Kshatriya/etc.
split is just varna or "color," not jati, or birth group.  A
person's jati determines customs and ritual practices, dietary
rules, occupation, and of course marriage.  A jati is like an
Orlanthi clan, but is endogamous (marrying only within the jati),
rather than exogamous.  I can see something like this in Teshnos. 
"I am of the Phatum caste of Warriors--maintain your distance,
impure stranger."  
     See Tekumel for lots of this.

Re: Veneration of Saints <--> Veneration of Ancestors
     Here's another vote in favor of it.

Re: women players and characters
     I've played a number of female characters and have generally
been in groups (both players and characters) which were mixed in
gender, without it being thought remarkable.  I've seen many
female warriors, most recently a scary Babeester Gori.  I'd be
too embarrassed to play in a "Slave Girls of Gor" game, unless it
was the Slave (warrior) Girls of (Babeester) Gor.
     BTW, Koreans, like the Byzantines, numbered their daughters.

Re: radical masculists, such as Zorak Zorani
     That would give new meaning to "take back the night"!

Remember the Alamo--


From: (Bill Robertson)
Subject: Protecting Chaos Creatures?
Message-ID: <>
Date: 23 Jun 94 19:30:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4759

Chris Cooke explained his conundrum:warrior kills chaotic beast that
was slept by healer.  Now the healer is angry, and the rest of the party
doesn't care.

I may be wrong, but I thought that CA's protection doesn't extend to
chaotic beings.