From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 24 Jun 1994, part 6
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Severals Suns
Message-ID: <9406232155.AA16237@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 23 Jun 94 21:55:48 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4787
Martin Crim:
> The God Learners went everywhere and called the local sun
> god by a single name--Yelm, maybe, but more likely Elmal, the
> Good Sun of the Orlanthi.
Yelm, apparently, from the "Jrusteli Monomyth" of GoG. This isn't so
unreasonable, since they knew about the Evil Emperor Yelm second hand
from the Orlanthi.
> Modern Gloranthans are
> the heirs of God Learner teaching, which presents an over-
> simplified mythology.
This is doubtless true, but there's No Help For It, is there? If the
people now _believe_ the GLerised version, trying to deduce what they
"should" believe is a somewhat thorny, not to say academic, question.
> Although Plentonius
> probably relied on older sources, my guess is he relied on
> inspiration both divine and mundane (that is, he made it up--and
> in magic, saying it right makes it so).
He essentially says so, in fact. Or as close as he could be expected to,
without having his tongue nailed to the ground with a croquet hoop.
> Before I set a game in Peloria, though, I'd
> want to have the Lunar Book, to understand the current state of
> Solar mythology.
I think this course is wise, but I wouldn't expect lots of Solar Updates
in the Masks... book. Trouble is, we know so dashed little about the
Lunar religion, much less how it effects the Solar stuff. Even had it
not affect Solar ideology one whit, knowing this is still not a big help
in playing in modern Peloria, where one can't help but trip over Lunars
at every turn.
> There is a place for extrapolation, in filling in the detail
> left unsaid.
Interpolation, surely. (Pedantic grin, swift withdrawal.)
> The elves of central
> Genertela clearly worship a god whom all agree is the same as
> Yelmalio, although the elves have a different name for him.
I'm agnostic on this point. I suspect that much (and maybe all) elf
Elmal/Yelmalio/whoever worship is picked up on from friendly humans, and
from there spreads to mildly malcontent elves. If there is a "native"
elven winter sun cult, it may not be much like Yelmalio at all.
> The Pol Joni part of the table is clearly outdated, and
> anyway all members have to worship Orlanthi cults.
They do? I thought the only real qualification was to ride a horse, and
pass an undescribed initiation test.
> Maybe there are Pol Joni Elmali?
One would certainly think so. Some of whom may have converted latterly
to Yelmalio, perhaps.
> The Waha style Yelmalians live among the Impala and Sable
> tribes. Like almost all Praxians, they belong to a society in
> which shamanistic worship was predominant until recent times.
> Their ancestors worshiped the Praxian solar deity Sun Hawk, as
> well as other spirits of light.
Here, I'm not sure if "Yelmalion" is being used as a shorthand for the
above pattern of worship, or if some short of conversion from such to
a more unified, theistic style, possibly worshipping Yelmalio qua Yelmalio.
The former sounds the more likely to me.
> This puts me firmly in the "different cults for different
> folks" camp, as if there were any doubt. But the cultists all
> believe they're worshiping the same god
I dunno about that, even. Elmal and Yelmalio worshippers don't appear
to think so, at least.
> just as Sikhs and Quakers worship the same God.
They do?? Sez who? I must go ask some local Sikhs this...
Somebody quoting somebody quoting somebody quoting somebody quoting
somebody quoting Martin Crim (could be about to) write(s):
>>>>>> Could people please limit their use of >'s, >>'s, and especially
>>>>>> >>>'s? I've read some messages four times now. Why not
>>>>>> summarize (fairly, if possible), or at least quote the minimum
>>>>>> number of lines that you must?
Note that even this last is not without hazard: one can be accused of being
"a journalism major" (some Quaint Colonialist Insult, I understand), if
one does so.
Alex.
---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: renegade allosaur non-traditional healer's geas commentary
Message-ID: <199406232322.AA03524@radiomail.net>
Date: 23 Jun 94 23:22:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4788
Cullen O'Neill said
>Except that thats not what Strangers in Prax tells us, at least WRT the
>Rokari. It says plainly No Women fight or cast magic except renegades.
>Of course one could argue that these renegades are common or somesuch...
Renegades are frequently common, especially when what's banned is fun or
worthwhile. Look at prohibition alcohol or the current subset of drugs in
the USA.
Philip Juffs asks
>I recently ran a game where a Broo shaman had possed an allosaur with a view
>to mating
>it with some of his tribe. (As if the thought of 10 tons of intelligent spell
>casting carnivore
>wasn't bad enough.) Sort of shades of Jurrasic Park. Can anyone give me
>rational why
>this sort of thing doen't happen more often?
Might be hard to control the offspring? (On the other hand, it's going to
happen at least one more time, in one of my games...)
Nils Weinander says
>I also think it should go both ways, i.e. not just
>warrior women, but also men doing traditional women's tasks.
This is how it's described in King of Sartar. We tend not to roleplay
weavers and child raising etc.
Stephen Stair reminded
>According to Chalana Arroy's writeup in "Gods", Chalana Arroy
>initiates are sworn to protect from harm beings that they have "slept",
>EXCEPT when that being is chaotic.
Hmm, I suspect it's still the Healer's call as to when to withdraw her
protection. I can see Healers going either way, towards pacificism or
towards wiping out chaos.
Brandon Brylawski gave a good summary of What Gods Know. My main exception
is that Lhankor Mhy must be able to see something of the future, otherwise
how could his seers identify horrible fates and wisely impose geases on
newborn nobles?
Colin Watson said
>I find, when reading myths (especially those set after Time begins), it
>gives an interesting slant if you insert "the cult of" before each mention
>of a God's name. When it says "Orlanth did this, Orlanth thought that"; try
>"the cult of Orlanth did this, the cult of Orlanth thought that".
>Before you know it, the battle between the gods becomes a clash of cultures.
Sounds like you've been reading Graves' comments on the Greek myths...
---------------------
From: mmlab!cookec%max.mml.mmc.com@uunet.uu.net (Chris Cooke)
Subject: Resolution - Urox vs Chalana Arroy
Message-ID:
Date: 23 Jun 94 23:25:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4789
Due the the number of responses I will try to summarize rather then quote.
To all of you who answered "CA's protection does not extend to chaotics" You
made your Cult Lore roll. :-)} Back to the scrolls for me it seems... The
RoC write is fine, you just have to read ALL of it. That line is not too
obvious if you are just skimming things like spell descriptions.
I like the idea of a CA curse. Perhaps visable as magic to 2nd sight, more
specific to soul sight or mystic vision. To quote Brandon:
Chalana Arroy Priestesses have a curse that they can lay upon those that have
transgressed against CA, if they feel that the offense warrants it. Normally,
one heals members of one's own species at a 1 mp for 1 hit point rate; other
species are healed at half this rate, 2 mp for 1 hit point. CA healers do not
have this restriction : they heal all species at 1 for 1. A CA priestess can
curse a trangressor "may your flesh be foreign to all creatures!" or similar
language. This causes the person to be healable by others(and even perhaps
themselves) only at the 2 for 1 rate, as if they were no longer human (or
whatever species they were originally).
I LIKE IT!!! Also it aids other LightBringers(or whoever else appropriate) in
identifing the transgressor for possible repurcussions(from a High healer
request of less merciful LBs for "disipline" to tribal, commercial,etc)
As we know, the degree to which an initiate (or any member) follows the cult
ideals varys. No member is perfect, though the higher their standing in the
cult the more they resemble that ideal.
In this case Rom and Andara had a talk, clearified their positions, Andara
lectured the Storm Kahn on his lack of concern for his initiates(remember she
did it to save Rom who was loosing that fight) Not as bad as I feared.
That sets the stage for - Urox interrogation techniques and what is acceptable
to Andara. They were ambushed last night and have a non-chaotic they wish to
"question". Right now Rekelze Flying Thorn(Aldrya initiate) has been asked to
take her to "look for healing herbs". She seems unsuspecting - for now...
--
/> Chris Cooke
//
(//////[O]>=========================================-
\\
\> cookec@mml.mmc.com
---------------------
From: bchugg@leland.stanford.edu (Barron Chugg)
Subject: Two Futures for Loskalm
Message-ID: <199406232345.QAA06845@popserver.Stanford.EDU>
Date: 23 Jun 94 08:47:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4790
At 9:26 AM 6/23/94 +0200, Graeme Lindsell wrote:
> I think modern Loskalm is a product of the Ban, and of King Siglat's
>work. His inhuman intelligence - and the Syndics Ban - allowed this system
>to function. Now both Siglat and the Ban are gone, the system is starting
>to fail, and will either collapse or attempt military conquest to convert
>the rest of Fronela.
>
This is the best comment on Loskalm to date, IMHO. It also offers some
great future story ideas for Fronela.
I agree that Loskalm is a bit too good to be true as written, but that
doesn't mean that the GCotHW write up is all lies. I like Graeme's idea
about the egalitarian Loskalmi society being a product of its isolation.
When there were no outside influences demanding change or offering
divergent ideas Loskalmi society probably worked great. But now the Ban
has lifted and those outside forces are flooding back in. For the first
time in many generations Lords are having to deal with those Ernaldan
Farmers. Also, other visions of Malkionism are seeping in. And then,
there is the KoW sharpening its swords.
So here was this nice, peaceful, pastoral society suddenly challenged
from all sides. I imagine many now lament the loss of the Ban ("Boy,
things sure were simpler in my day, son..."). It seems to me that there
are two possible futures for Loskalm. Future one is the pessimistic one.
In this future the outside influences are too much for the structured
society to bear. The Loskalmi become absorbed by internal disputes
(religious, political, _trade_) and the cracks that many in the daily have
suggested become more pronounced. Then either the KoW tears Loskalm to
shreds, or it becomes the fanatical, religious dictatorship that some say
it already is. They may even become the big baddies of the next age.
The other possibility is much more up beat. This future is one in which
the Loskalmi (or at least one charismatic leader) recognize that their
society is a product of its isolation and that it cannot survive unchanged
into the new age. In this view the society undergoes some internal
restructuring, adding, perhaps, several more castes that are parallel, but
seperate from the four (five?) standard ones (imagine an Wanderer caste, a
Wise(wo)man caste, or a Merchant caste). These would accomadate those that
do not fit well into the one size fits all four. Now, to make this
interesting, I would have the fragmentation of the other future set in
first. Things look bad, society is crumbling, the wolves are at the gates!
But from this chaos a new era is born. Perhaps a new, revitalized
Hrestoli philosophy motivates the people and welds them together to turn
back the KoW. Or, maybe the KoW crushes Loskalm and the new ideology is
one of revolution ("Arise, down-tapped masses!!"). Either way, the rebirth
through disorder is in keeping with the general theme of the Hero Wars
period.
Personaly I favor the second option. I think it is more in keeping with
the high-minded ideas that seem to be the basis of Loskalm's culture.
Granted, one person's high-mindedness is another's single-mindedness, but I
like the power of the stories that could be generated by the second option.
But then, I am a sucker for happy endings.
Barron Chugg
---------------------
From: Argrath@aol.com
Subject: This is not a subject
Message-ID: <9406231958.tn97317@aol.com>
Date: 23 Jun 94 23:58:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4791
Nils Weinander--
I quite prefer your hero pointish DI to that provided in the
rules. It also has the side effect of explaining why armies
don't disappear when they're losing, and other nauseating side-
effects of extrapolating from the rules. While I'm talking rules
(gack! Me, talking rules?!), players shouldn't know how many DI
points their characters have.
In my pilgrimage rules, some pilgrimages gave an increased
chance of successfully calling for DI. I prefer just giving a DI
point.
Simon Jones--
Thanks for the three spirit cults. Loved 'em, particularly
the way you tied them to specific places and/or events. They
take an honored place on my hard disk as a separate file.
Question: does the Chalk Man have a large phallus, like one of
the chalk figures in England? If so, he may be a fertility
spirit.
--Martin
---------------------
From: ANDOVER@delphi.com
Subject: Scholars
Message-ID: <01HDW7FW3ZXU90RRB4@delphi.com>
Date: 23 Jun 94 16:29:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4792
Contrary to what seems to be the accepted view of "scholars" on the line,
I AM a scholar but have largely kept my mouth shut on all the scholarly
debates about history (yes I am an historian). But if you are going to
argue about medieval attitudes towards magic, I suugest the latest issue
of the American Historical Review (June 1994) which contains (pp. 813-836)
an article by Richard Kieckhefer titled "The Specific Rationality of
Modern Magic." The summary of the article states that "Kieckhefer argues
that people who used the term "magic" in the Middle Ages thought of it as
neither irrational nor nonrational but as rational; they believed magic
could work and that its workings were governed by principles that coould be
coherently articulated, even if these principles were not always fully
articulated or articulated in exactly the same way. In reviewing the
rational foundations for the concepts of demonic and natural magic, Kieckhefer
shows that conceptions of magic varied in their degree of specificity and
in the types of principle they invoked. Even so, he concludes, basic
principles of magic were widely shared in medieval culture."
---------------------
From: Codexzine@aol.com
Subject: World Cup T-shirts and Western Wear
Message-ID: <9406232127.tn100772@aol.com>
Date: 24 Jun 94 01:27:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4794
Hello all, Mike Dawson here.
Pardon the use of space if you aren't going to Convulsion.
My girlfriend and I am planning to go to Convulsion next month. In an effort
to offset her ticket price, she is willing to sell custom made hats for
participants in How the West was One. If you are in, then you know that a
weird hat is "required" by the people running it.
Kirsten is an extremely accomplished seamstress, knowledgable about medieval
costuming, and capable of making pretty much anything. We do have some
baggage limitations, so whatever you want ought to be something crushable, or
with removable wires.
Trim, embroidery, propellers, whatever, are all within her capabilities. We
are both very active in the Society for Creative Anachronism, and she has
awards for her historically accurate reproduction work. Of course, for
HtWwO, history is not as important as flash, and she realizes this. I can act
as Supervisor of Runic Symbolism for Hat Production.
If you are interested in a custom hat, please email me RIGHT AWAY. These
things take some time to get done.
Also, it occurs to me that there may be a few soccer fans at Convulsion.
Anybody desperate for a World Cup t-shirt direct from the US? Tell me/her
what you want, and we'll see what we can get and how much it will cost you.
Space in our luggage is limited!
Oh, I may have some runic jewellry for sale there too.
Finally, if anyone has a good tip on a airline ticket consolidator or any
other way of getting a RT ticket from Washington or Baltimore to London for
less than US$550, please let me know.
Andrew Bean says Aussie Codex will be out in a week or so. Colin should have
masters in hand now for the UK edition, and I have just got the US edition of
#2 myself. Mailing has already begun.
Thats all for now!
Mike
---------------------
From: garydj@ditard.dit.gov.au
Subject: Chalana Arroy & Chaos
Message-ID: <9405247724.AA772491314@ditard.dit.gov.au>
Date: 24 Jun 94 11:55:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4795
I'd just like to put in my two clacks worth on the recent Chalana
Arroy and chaos thread.
First, I better confess my prejudices. I like Chalana Arroy. It's
far and away ahead of my next preference: Stuck up, closet-gay
Yelmalions with crappy magic and fun geases. I've played Chalana
Arroy cultists and have a High Healer NPC in my campaign who is
probably my favourite character in that game. I've never really
bought those comments in River of Cradles on Chalana Arroy being
passive retiring types who don't heal or protect chaos.
Chalana Arroy cultists will heal anyone and everyone. It's a matter
of personal decision for the cultist whether they use First Aid or
Heal Body on someone in need. I can see an Orlanthi Wind Lord getting
the Heal Body ahead of the broo, but Chalana Arroy heals all. The
broo should get something, even if its just a little comfort and
compassion.
Sure, Chalana Arroy is one of the Lightbringers and so is opposed to
chaos. But a Chalana Arroy may believe to heal a broo and provide it
with protection may help to cure it of its evil hatreds just as
another Chalana Arroy may believe "some infections have to be cut
out".
On the question of a Uroxi killing a chaos beastie slept by a Chalana
Arroy, I would run it that Chalana Arroy would be offended that Her
magic and protection had been violated, but whether this means
anything would depend on the Chalana Arroy initiate. As GM, I would
allow her to pronounce the Healer's Curse, if she thought it
appropriate. I think the Healer's Curse is far more potent than
described. I believe it means that no healing will work for the
transgressor. They cannot recover from injuries and cannot resist
disease! It's not the kind of curse you deliver on a whim. I've seen
one player (rightly, if rather harshly) pronounce it on another. The
transgressor became an outlaw, fled the land and joined Malia. Also
I think the Healer's Curse can be lifted by the Chalana Arroy who laid
it, if the transgressor is suitably repentant.
I like the idea of some Chalana Arroy, certainly not all, being
impassioned activist types. They may advocate destroying chaos. They
may also advocate absolute non violence, providing only First Aid to
those who initiate a fight even if its in a just cause (chaos, trolls
or whatever) and there are severed limbs littering the battlefield.
Most Chalana Arroy wouldn't be so unfeeling, but I like the idea of
the troll or broo getting the Heal Body ahead of the Orlanthi or
Uroxi, at least sometimes. Most Chalana Arroy probably are passive,
retiring types. Certainly, many of them would have well justified
fears of chaos, trolls etc who do not recognize the inviolability of
their status. But, activist Chalana Arroy are a lot more fun.
Enough of my rantings.
Gary James
---------------------