From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 25 Jun 1994, part 3 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: shillada@gatwick.sgp.slb.com Subject: DI's ( A GM's Headache) Message-ID: <9406241312.AA25717@icarus.gatwick.sgp.slb.com> Date: 24 Jun 94 13:12:28 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4802 I have found that the best way to play DI is a la Stormbringer's elan system, as mentioned by Mark Buckley. However, I restrict elan, and any successful DI % roll is removed from your elan. I like this system as players then feel the urge to get this elan back, encouraging them to be very religious for a while. Elan can be awarded/taken away depending on character's attendence at holy days. (Drop a holy day in the middle of a scenario, take the players into the back end of beyond, then see if they attend. :-) ) --------------------- From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com (Official Heat Sink) Subject: Son of Ripping Off The Gods Message-ID: <01HDX0PCXWSI8WYC8I@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com> Date: 24 Jun 94 05:18:35 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4803 >Did you call, Mr. Heat Sink? (Or may I call you Official? Actually, it's Mr. Sink. 'Heat' is my middle name. ;) >though we may have a difference in interpretation of how it "works", >exactly. The crux of the issue! >But in any case, the most obvious way to "rip off" a god is to >recreate their rituals reasonably closely, _including_ sacrifice of >POW and mps, but simply with cynical/powermongering/minimaxing >intent. Trial and error may also reveal where the ritual or >sacrifice may be (apparently) safely short-cut or skimped on. Granted, this is the most obvious way. In fact, if I allowed this sort of thing in my campaigns, I'd play it this way. Mostly I disagree that such things are 'possible.' >how do we account for all the arseholes in Glorantha, past and >present, who patently _have_ had it? And how do Illuminates fit >into the picture? "Go away, boy, you bother me." :) Actually, I haven't quite figured that part out. I usually just grant that Illuminates are exceptions. It's a good point. >>I admit that this >> "tertiary" knowledge is pretty hazy most of the time, >To paraphrase Professor Greg, no-one in Glorantha is omni-anything. That was my point. I don't consider them omniscient, but I *do* believe that they know more than people seem willing to admit. I certainly think that most gods know more than just what their worshippers tell them. I don't expect Orlanth to know much about Sun County (or care overly much about the place), frex. But remember that he's a strom/air god, and one could reasonably expect him to, well, "have contacts" anyplace that there's air. (This isn't an end-all explanation, but it's reasonable.) >If one has to be a complete Goody Two Shoes in order to get >effective magic One doesn't, but I'd think that one shouldn't be a complete Baddy 18 Sandals and still get magic from two-footed gods of decent character, either. >You mean distracted, not very concerned with the Real World, and >busy off Recreating their Youth someplace? Not quite, but not far off. I'd think that the Gods would jump at the chance to Mess with Reality once in a while. I certainly don't think they're pre-programmed automata. --Scott --------------------- From: jclannom@mathlab.mtu.edu (Joe Lannom) Subject: re: Ripping off the Gods & a question Message-ID: <9406241537.AA10580@mathlab.mtu.edu> Date: 24 Jun 94 15:37:57 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4804 Alex did scribe: |> So if I perform the rituals correctly, I am, by definition, |> devout? This merely leaves the question of how hard it is in |> practice to be Cynically Devout. |> I work it that many of the rituals to gain powers include oaths to use what is gained to further the gods goals in the world. These oaths act like Humakt or sun geases... you break the vow, the power you gained disappears, or becomes one-use. This falls in line with the concept of becoming more like your god. If you stray off the path, you are more like something else, and so your powers would reflect that. If you leave the cult, you basically stole that power from your god for a short time until you use it and they find out about it... then they get it back, and you don't get to play with their toys anymore. Stealing powers/spells this way is possible because the gods did it. Death was stolen a fair number of times and passed around, but since they weren't the -true- owners of the power, they only get the spells one-use. An apostate rune level's divine magic spells become one-use, like all those cults who have one-use sever spirits. Those gods had Death in their hands for a short while... and so can use its power for a short while. Only the ones that truly possess the power have it re-useable. I'm fairly certain that on at least one occasion, someone was talked into loaning someone Death. It wasn't just pilfered. Because of this, you should be able to talk your way into getting the spell ....once. Do the rituals, swear to use the power 'correctly' and viola! I don't believe that you can get a spell more than once if you're not devout... or at least not after you prove that you're not devout. Illuminates can be absolutely devout about all sorts of things... at any time. The interconnectedness of all the myths allows them to follow just about any path they feel like, since all the paths lead to the same place.. eventually. They're a tricky bunch. Imagine getting one of them in court... "Sure, I killed that peasant for no reason. That doesn't mean I didn't have a reason, just that I didn't use it." David Dunham writes: |> Brandon Brylawski gave a good summary of What Gods Know. My main |> exception is that Lhankor Mhy must be able to see something of the |> future, otherwise how could his seers identify horrible fates and |> wisely impose geases on newborn nobles? |> Where does this come from (geases on newborn nobles)? -= A question: How common are adventurers that live longer than two or three seasons in your worlds? I'm trying to determine how much of a reputation my group has... the Humakt already has an astounding rep after getting REALLY lucky in his first couple of honor duels and beating some fairly tough Swords: he was a fresh initiate. There are now cult members going out of their way to see just how good he is... The highest cult status any of them has is initiate, it should be at least a year game-time before any one of them can become rune level. They've already been adventuring for one year game-time. The greater the reputation, the greater the danger. Lots of people end up coming to dodge to get a glimpse at the famous heroes to be. joe lannom --------------------- From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172) Subject: another imther myth Message-ID: <01HDX5AT2GBEQWXOLI@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU> Date: 24 Jun 94 07:25:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4805 Simon-- Liked the spirit cults of northern Sartar. Now, here's another of my Imther stories, again pertaining to the Imtherian view of the Lightbringer saga. Khalana and Orlantio by Harald Smith (The following is a piece of the Imtherian Lightbringer cycle. Khalana is the healer. Orlantio is the trickster and acting leader after he betrayed Lagavar the hero. Noss is a mortal man who sought the truth of the world's future.) After Orlantio betrayed Lagavar, Khalana and Noss followed Orlantio on through the Deepest Underworld. But though they thought Orlantio led them, he did not for he was as wayward as always, going wherever instinct led him. They came across the Keeper of the Net, but Orlantio turned himself to wind and whistled through the net. When the Keeper turned to chase Orlantio, Khalana and Noss slipped past. They came across Ubur, the grievous howl. Orlantio laughed and said he could howl louder and whipped up his winds to a frenzy before dashing into the distance. Khalana stopped, though, and came to him. Instead of taunting Ubur, she asked him why he howled. Ubur paused in his howling to consider this. Suddenly, he realized he was not howling and did not need to. He was freed of his task and thanked Khalana before going on his way. Orlantio returned in a rage. "You would set all these wretched beings free. The world is for them no longer--stop your charity." Khalana shook her head. "It is your anger that twists you so. Give it up lest it lead you and us into a danger that we should avoid." "Fool. Anger is the wellspring of victory. It is freedom from fetters and bonds. Go play healer some more, but I am moving on." And Orlantio walked on. Khalana and Noss, knowing no better path followed in his wake. At the Thunder Hall, Orlantio was greeted by his dead kin. "Come brother," cried Olat, "join our merry feast." The party entered the hall. There sat Olat the Sky Wind upon a throne made from a broken star. His face was smeared with gore and blood. His clothes were tattered winds of tarnished silver. And he drank from a crumpled chalice a drink of whitened maggots. Next to him sat Urox the Thundering Bull upon a throne of dead goddesses. His horns were cracked and broken. Chains came through his nose ring and bound him to his place. Rising around him were great piles of his own manure. Lesser children, too, dashed around the once mighty storm lords driving dirt and bones before them with their whips. Orlantio laughed. "Well you are in fine form, I see. Leave you all to your own devices and it leads you here. You should have followed me and we would have conquered all." "Still arrogant as always," said Urox. "Well what are these playthings you have brought us?" Orlantio shoved Noss forward. "A living mortal to toy with. He thinks he's seen all there is to see!" A gaunt skeletal figure came, winds whipping his blackened cape from the bony shoulders. "I think he has not seen this, my brother." The figure brought forth a mighty blade, greyed and rusted. "Let him try this toy!" The figure swung the sword upon Noss, who cried out, as did Khalana. But it was too late. Death severed Noss. But though the body fell, the spirit stayed suspended above. The figure swung the sword again. But this time it passed silently through Noss. "Once is all you can achieve. I am called now and see my path. I thought that you could lead us Orlantio, but I was wrong. Luckily I can go on from here along. Farewell, dear Khalana, though I think we shall meet again." Orlantio screamed in rage, as did his dead kin, but the winds could not hold Noss now from his appointed path. And the brothers fell to fighting amongst themselves as they had always done. While they raged on, Orlantio took Khalana and dashed out of the Thundering Hall and locked the doors behind him. "You have led me to this path," shouted Orlantio at Khalana. "You have tricked me into letting Noss go. You have deceived me at all times." Khalana shook her head. "Put down your anger, Orlantio. Can you not see what it does to you?" But Orlantio would not contain his anger. "You are as wretched as your fool brother who took my bride from me. You will push me no farther!" And saying that Orlantio stepped forward and ripped Khalana's garb from her shoulders. He seized the gentle goddess and pushed her to the earth. He took her ousa, ripped the strings from it and used then to bind her hands and feet. There he took out his lusts upon Khalana, engorged by his own anger, time and again until he could do no more. Beneath him Khalana wept. "I will find my own way from here for I am surely done with you," he said brusquely and then departed. Khalana was hurt and alone. Her magics were broken. She could not even free herself from her bondage. Yet even in her most dreadful pass, she felt a stirring within her--she could feel a new life. Though she lay broken in the land of the dead, foully treated by the outlaw Orlantio, Khalana brought forth a girl child, calm and serene and cloaked in dew. She cried tears and the child drank the tears and grew. And when the child had grown enough, she removed the bindings from her mother and held her mother. Kindness renewed Khalana and she found a way to stand. Khalana picked up her broken instrument and together, hand-in-hand, Khalana and her daughter continued on their way through Hell. --------------------- From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson) Subject: The Ferguson Theory Message-ID: <9406241640.AA29214@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk> Date: 24 Jun 94 17:40:53 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4806 I said: >> Even in the event of success; if *any* other Humakti priests found out about >> it, these "new worshippers" would be excommunicated so fast it would make >> their heads spin clean orf. And they would be right back at square one. Alex (thinks he) disagrees: > >I disagree with this particular bit: one should only be able to excomm., >or sic spirits of reprisal on, cultists from the same "hierarchy". Indeed, but the way I see it, these chaps *are* effectively in the same hierarchy. Remember the setup: Cacodaemonists cajole Humakti priest into revealing cult rites. They re-enact these rituals to become "initiates" and (maybe eventually) "priests". My view is: because the Cacodaemonists learned the rituals by rote from the priest it is effectively as if he had initiated them himself and therefore he knows full-well how to excommunicate them. And so would any other priest who worships Humakt in the same way. Excommunication isn't (just) a social casting-out ceremony. It has a tangible magical effect in that it cuts-off the target's ability to work cult divine magic. This is how it might work: A priest can excommunicate his subordinate because he knows everything (and more) about how the initiate works his magic. He knows exactly which magical (Chuggian:) paths the initiate uses to get cult magic and he can (using the Excommunication ritual) interpose obstructions which thwart the initiate's attempts to walk those paths. Priests, who are naturally familiar with the ways of their god, can take a more individual approach to their magic and are thus largely invulnerable to excommunication by a fellow priest because they each know slighly different paths. (However, a knowledgable High-Priest might be able to work it on his priests if he felt the need... I dunno). Worshippers from geographically distant areas would tend to worship in slightly different ways. They may nominally all worship Humakt but their rituals would differ. Hence a priest from one area may be incapable of Excommunicating an initiate from another area. >(Otherwise Humakti duals between two High Swords becomes "Excommunication >Quick Draw".) For reasons stated above this probably wouldn't work and, even if it did, Swords probably wouldn't stoop so low. Excommunication *could* be a powerful force in war tho... Perhaps if you knew your enemies' god/cult better than they did themselves then maybe you could excommunicate their entire army just before the battle thus disabling their greatest magic. Sounds like a GodLearner stunt to me. In a time when the Monomyth was strong it would be easier to do cos everyone would be worshipping in the same way. ___ CW. --------------------- From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly) Subject: Re: Resurrection Message-ID: <9406241750.AA29832@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu> Date: 24 Jun 94 17:50:52 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4808 Someone suggest reenacting the Lightbringer's Quest for Resurrection spells. This is exactly how I run the Resurrection ritual anyway - it is a shamanic journey into the Underworld. A full LB group helps. Similarly with 7M Resurrection, which should possibly be Reincarnation into a new body? (Provided by a helpful volunteer) Yelm's spell should CERTAINLY be Resurrect Self. An interesting component in game-play could be if for the Yelm Self-Raising to work, the slayer of the Yelm priest must himself be slain, so that the Yelm priest can call the spirit of the slayer to appear before him in the Underworld and force him to apologize. Hmm. Gives me scenario ideas... - Paul Reilly --------------------- From: carlsonp@wdni.com (Carlson, Pam) Subject: Hyena Message-ID: <2E0B1E16@emssmtp.msm.weyer.com> Date: 24 Jun 94 16:28:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4809 I loved all the Prax spirits - particularly Hyena (one of my fav critters). Devin, have you considered making Hyena female? Earthly Hyenas are highly matriarchal, and the female hyenas are bigger than the males. If Hyena *is* female, then hyenas might also make an appropriate animal associate for Malign Earth. In a recent TV doc on hyenas, I saw that some African villages put their garbage in the streets at night, and the local hyena pack comes and munches it all down. Might Praxians use this sanitation technique? Brother Dog's spells are good. I suggest you add "body postures" to the list of ways to communicate using the "Speak with Dogs" spell. (I'd love to see a Storm Khan hopping up and down and growling....) Pam "I'll Watch Documentaries About Anything" Carlson <^==@ /\ /\ --------------------- From: carlsonp@wdni.com (Carlson, Pam) Subject: Gloranthan Midwifery Message-ID: <2E0B1EA2@emssmtp.msm.weyer.com> Date: 24 Jun 94 17:13:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4810 I was amused by our Dorastan story this week: Agharl (the steadleader) and his wife had their first baby. While the poor mother-to-be was writhing in the private corner of the stead, the Ernalda acolyte (a PC) was called to help. When asked what the Ernaldan would do, her player thought carefully and said: " I cast Strength 4 on her and and yell 'push'!" The event led us to a discussion of Orlanthi birthing customs. Agharl didn't really want to be present, "because it was women's stuff, and MESSY!" On the other hand, he was too worried to stay away, so he kept running in and out. We decided that most Orlanthi, being somewhat egalitarian and family oriented, would allow the father to stick around during the birthing. Other cultures would have different customs. The stead had some guests that night, including some Yelm worshipping men from Dara Happa. These guys couldn't put enough distance between themselves and the noisy, bleeding woman. Unfortunately, the farther they squirmed away from the birthing room, the closer they got to the sheep stalls.... I gather the Doraddi women would maintain birthing as a woman's mystery. Has anyone else thought about Gloranthan birthing traditions? ******************************** I heartily agree with Barron Chugg: the Lunar army should have female military officers and administrators - especially after Hwaran Dalthippa's influence. Yet another reason to love those Lunars! Pam <^==@ /\ /\ --------------------- From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly) Subject: Re: Reply to Sandy Message-ID: <9406241810.AA00217@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu> Date: 24 Jun 94 18:10:43 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4811 Paul Reilly commenting on Sandy's post X-RQ-ID: 4781: Good God Learner analysis. I always liked 'em and I concur - they were hapless but not evil per se. >HUNGER: owned by Krarsht. Represents: undeath, destruction of life. I liked it better when this was the Undeath rune. Look at what Sandy says about the meaning. WOuld be owned by Gark or Vivamort. I liked having Krarsht with Movement and Stasis as runes, with no Chaos. Elsewhere we are told you need a touch of CHaos to have two opposing Power Runes, so this gives us hints without being explicit, which I like. ALso, it gave me great inspiration on how to run both Krarshtkids and the cult - patient, silently waiting, but capable of great speed. >LUCK ... Greg's (and my) theory was that any luck-oriented spell might possibly give you good luck today, but only at the expense of really bad luck tomorrow< Exactly the way I run it also. I had some luck sorcery that enhanced your luck, increasing the chance of both critical hits and fumbles. Another thing was a Holy Country plot against the Lunars instigated soon after the fall of Sartar: the Masters of Luck and Death made Lucky Dice and Lucky Bones, pieces for two common soldiers games, and insinuated them through agents into the Lunar army. (Made a profit, too!) The bones and dice gave good luck in gaming, taking it from your store of battle luck - a lot of guys made a bunch of money, dicing, but were killed by stray arrows, etc. Plot was discovered by an Etyries merchant who thought that the "lucky dice" were too good to be true. Discovered in 1617, I think, after the disappearance of the Pharaoh. Despite the plot being discovered, some of the Lucky/Deadly dice are still circulating - the soldiers were ordered to turn in their "lucky dice" but of course not all complied. Many are now in the hands of Spoken Word and the Danfive cult. > I'm sold. St. Michelle 'tis, at least in my campaign. I'll Note that Michael is a very martial saint/archangel, God's premier warrior. So a martial St. Michelle as patron of female Knights makes sense. -- paul --------------------- From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172) Subject: misc Message-ID: <01HDXBMVSV4WQWXI8S@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU> Date: 24 Jun 94 09:47:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4812 Hello everyone-- Joerg beat me to the response on Rigtaina. And I agree with his feeling that the Balazaring are NOT Dog Hsunchen. I played the Balazaring as hunters based around the cult of Foundchild with Brother Dog as a spirit cult allied to Foundchild. I like the idea that there are primitive cultures which are not hsunchen derived. -Barron on initiates In general I like this approach because it makes the initiate active and the god accessible via myth only. The closer you walk in the mythic pathway the more likely you are to achieve results parallel to the myth. Curiously, this approach reminds me of the RQII schema where people set out to walk in the path of the gods to achieve runes. When you had achieved them you were like your god. Only those who went beyond to add their own runes (i.e. heroes) really changed the mythic boundaries. -Devin I liked seeing the postings on the Praxian spirits (unfortunately, time constraints have prevented me from commenting on them in more detail--on first pass I thought that some like Evening Star were overly powered). On your second post I liked the title "Mistress Clam"--sounds like a new spirit for Defender's Shore. ;-) -Sandy on the monomyth This discussion of the assembly of the monomyth and its truth is interesting. It suggests a cycle of integration/disintegration in the whole of Gloranthan myth. (So maybe the magic is not dead in the fourth age, just inaccessible and waiting for heroes to reassemble the strands of the web and reintegrate the hero plane.) --Harald