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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 27 Jun 1994, part 2
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From: Argrath@aol.com
Subject: Ay, Caramba.
Message-ID: <9406251358.tn07586@aol.com>
Date: 25 Jun 94 17:58:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4827
Re: Rune Magic
This is a rather abstract thread, so I'm going to inject
some game-stuff into it. Ready?
In Mike Dawson's game, a trickster initiate had to steal
something in order to gain a divine spell from a shrine he was
visiting.
Peter Michaels has suggested (off the Daily) that a mini-
heroquest be required to gain divine magic. I suggest that a
pilgrimage be a common variety of mini-heroquest, or RuneQuest
(as someone has suggested).
Example 1: Mandibles of Doom, a Gorakiki-beetle priestess,
lives in the Indigo Mountains with her tribe and minor temple.
To get the Kropa Transform Self spell, she must travel to the
Great Temple to Gorakiki-beetle in the Castle of Lead. This trip
is conducted as a pilgrimage, during which she can eat nothing
but beetles and beetle chow, wear nothing but beetle chitin, and
speak to no one who is not a G-b initiate.
Example 2: Lodi the Wind Voice lives near Wilms Kirk, where
he serves in a Major Temple. Even though Wind Warp is available
at that temple, he goes to the Old Wind temple to sacrifice for
it. This may be because the High Priest told him to, or because
he thinks he'll get a more effective spell there, or simply out
of piety.
Example 3: Warlry the Shaman of Aldrya gets a call to tend a
wartree for a season. At the end, he finds that he loses a point
of POW and gains a use of Animate War Tree. (Note: Warlry's
player told the GM he wanted to sack for AWT, and "tending for a
season" is not full time.)
Re: Indian castes
I don't know of any good detailed source, Cullen; do you
live close to a university? Actually, a decent public library
should have something.
The castes are a prime example of how people think of
themselves as members of a group, rather than individuals,
throughout most of the world and history. Individualism is a
concept not very prevalent among the masses except in the U.S.,
where we're all different together. (Note to furriners: I live
here, I get to criticize it. You don't hear me making nasty
comments about "Perfidious Albion," do you? ...Except for just
then, of course.)
Re: devotion
Another place you get people giddy with love for their god
(in Paul Reilly's phrase) is India, with its popular Bhakti
(devotion). See the article in the Abingdon Dictionary of Living
Religions.
Jesper Wahrner says:
> I want a Glorantha that is a closed, fully functioning world
> that works as a literary creation and which I can play in.
Hear, hear; well spoken.
Re: Paul Reilly's Malkionism
Very interesting. Too bad you hit the wrong button just as
you were getting going.
Re: Sandy's Lunar Copperheads
Laughing Out Loud. Great stuff for a campaign.
In Eric Bracey's campaign, the Lunar weakness (which the PCs
were aware of, but never fully exploited) was their corruption.
Everybody we met was bribeable (aside from Fazzur Wideread, and
he was blackmailable, though we didn't try). Not that the
Sartarites were paragons of integrity. In fact, one of the PCs
formed an Intifada-analogue to kill collaborators. "We're not
talking about killing Lunars," he said. "We're talking about
killing our own people." (He was a very scary character, and a
Storm Bull.)
Re: changing Red Emperor
See the Gloranthan Lore Auction transcript, coming soon in
David Cheng's RQ Con book. I thought you were there, Paul.
Re: Graeme answering Alex answering me about elven Yelmalians
I hereby endorse Graeme's ideas about the origin of some
Yelmalio geases. I think that the elf cult influenced an
existing Sun Dome cult, rather than merely spread among the
humans. This might have occurred in the First Age, when
everybody was friends.
--Martin
---------------------
From: bchugg@leland.stanford.edu (Barron Chugg)
Subject: Regional Pathes and others
Message-ID: <199406260559.WAA28688@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Date: 25 Jun 94 14:17:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4828
Hello All.
A little more thinking on the idea of "god pathes" to share. I was
thinking a bit more about the cultural variations of cults. I liked the
idea of the variances, but they seemed a bit artificial if "they're all
worshipping the same deity". Well, I looked back at this in the light of
the pathes idea and came up with the following. Imagine that a deity has a
certain set of pathes that define his/her history, mythology and
personality. No doubt these are a lot of varied pathes, some better
defined than others. Now consider that no single culture is likely to
"know" _all_ the pathes of a god, or even look at the ones they are aware
if the same way. So in some areas they are aware of Orlanth's Adventurous
aspects, in others the Rex and Thunderous. These are clearly the same god,
but two areas are following him in very different ways (Ralios (as recently
discussed) and Dragon Pass for example).
Consider the question of Broo Humakti and Chalana Arroy which has been
mentioned a lot lately. We usually think of CA in her Lightbringer aspect,
but I imagine the Dorastori broos emphasis her healer aspect. Granted,
they are not likely to be able to follow the pathes that lead to Cure Chaos
Wound or any diesease fighting abilities, but I'd think most other healing
spells are available. While illumnation would help, it is not mandatory.
As for Humakt, I have no problem with broos devoting themselves to Death,
but they'd have problems with the Truth parts (I have never thought of
Chaotics as being to innately honest). So they'd get the death and combat
abilities and not the Oaths and Detect Truthes.
Before you folks start to think that any cult can be manipulated this
way, consider the following. The main anti-chaos cults (Orlanth, Urox,
etc.) would have the "lawful" qualities at the core of the religion, such
that, to remove them would cause the cult to lose its identity (and poof,
no runemagic at all).
From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
>
>
>Barron Chugg in X-RQ-ID: 4753
>
>B> This is the crux of my idea: that runemagic comes from within. Now,
>B> you cannot get it without following some path, that is to say, by
>B> emulating your diety.
>
>This fits in nicely with my conception of initiation (RD&EG)... The
>idea is that getting Rune Spells is essentially the result of a minor
>heroquest (that is what you're proposing right?)...
Yeah, that is exactly what I mean. But I am not certain if the HQ is
real or implied (or if the two ideas can be seperated). I like the
mystical imagry in Jonas's Growing Pain scenerio, but I guess I have always
had a slightly more mundane view of Gloranthan religion. As I have said
above, I think the individual spells/aspects of the deity are seperable,
and this argues that they are seperate pathes. BTW, what is "RD&EG"?
>
>I can see that the rituals to gain Rune magic would be involved, and for
>the really good spells, maybe even with an element of risk (Sever
>Spirit, etc as you mentioned... ie: the grossly powerful stuff)
>
I like the idea that the more powerful spells imply a certain risk. I
mean, if you tie yourself close enough to the Death rune that you can kill
another person...well, that should have some side effect/risk. But, on the
other hand, this is opening a hole new can of worms...
>
>For regaining the spell, some sort of mental reliving of the quest might
>be in order?
What is worship beside comtemplating the aspects of your god? You can
just chose which aspects (i.e. spells) you wish to relive.
>_____________________________
>B> note, I like the idea of using Arlaten's ideas as a contrast to Pavic
>B> society, but I'd also like to believe that his opinions are not
>B> typical of a Westerner).
>
>Well... I'd like to agree that there can be exceptions in Rokari
>culture, but SiP is quite clear: 'To him (and his culture)...'
>
Sure, sure, throw facts at me. Jeez, what a pedant! :-) I guess I am
trying to invoke the "everything says is wrong"
clause. To be honest, what I'd really like to see is a developement of
Western culture that is not a carbon copy of Christianity (note, gross over
generalization). Since Western culture has not been at all developed
(wouldn't a few nice mythes of Malkion be nice?), we (the playing public)
are just filling in the copious gaps with something familiar.
>But we only know about Rokari culture being this sexist. One culture
>being this way, especially with a number of cultures leaning the other
>way (as pointed out by a number of people) is natural.
Yeah, I'm not advocated across the board openmindedness, that would be
kinda boring. And I'll admit to having a personal bias against sexist
theocracies. The most fun (game-wise) would be to have the more
consevative Rokari refuse to recognize Saint Michelle (or, better,
recognize her as a watered down version of herself (e.g. she sanctions
women to do healing magic and defend the homestead)). Meanwhile in Fronela
and Safelster, Michelle is alive and well. And, again, to make my bias
clear, I don't like to Rokari much (hey, Greg can hate Mostali, I can hate
Rokari).
>
>From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
>
> Note that Michael is a very martial saint/archangel, God's premier warrior.
>So a martial St. Michelle as patron of female Knights makes sense.
>
Actually I was giving a nod to Michelle Ringo who started me thinkng
about this stuff. Umm, I mean...yeah, that was what I had in mind all the
time...
>
>From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172)
>
>-Barron on initiates
>In general I like this approach because it makes the initiate active and
>the god accessible via myth only. The closer you walk in the mythic
>pathway the more likely you are to achieve results parallel to the myth.
>Curiously, this approach reminds me of the RQII schema where people set
>out to walk in the path of the gods to achieve runes. When you had
>achieved them you were like your god. Only those who went beyond to add
>their own runes (i.e. heroes) really changed the mythic boundaries.
>
The idea about RQ2 was mentioned before, and you're right, it fits great.
Must be my old RQ2 training coming to the fore. I like the idea that this
view gives some logic to the "POWx3" tests for some cults. Can you
manifest the aspects of the god well enough to become a priest? Clearly
when HeroQuest is published it will address all the questions about how you
start your own hero cult ("Blessed are the gullible...").
Mike:
>
>In Friday 6/24's digest, Sandy Petersen seconded BAron Chugg's
^r
Then again, with a name like mine, you'd think I'd get used to
mispellings...:-)
>suggestion that the Rokari have a kick-butt female saint with what
>are way cool ideas on how she offers outlets for women choosing
>unconventional career choices. Great idea.
>
>
>But can we please find a name for her that is not shared by a bunch
>of Duran Duran fans? St. Michelle??? Ugh. Is she really named with a
>feminized version of Michael, derived from the Hebrew for " Who is
>like the Lord?"?
>
>I just HATE the use of english (or other recognizable) names in
>Glorantha. That's why I pronounce it Talar Malaskan Puh-hill-eep-eh.
>
Yes, something more Gloranthan would be nice. How about Saint Elleish
(il-EESH)?
From: lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au (Graeme Lindsell)
>
> Barron Chugg suggests:
>>Imagine a person's progression in a cult as a heroquest of sorts. The
>>quest itself is to follow the path of their god
>>This removes the troubling question of the gods acting
>>directly in the world
>
> But raises the more troubling question as to whether the god has
>any kind of independant existance at all, or is just these collection
>of hero paths, and is made manifest by people walking them. A question
>the God Learners obviously pondered, and came up with answer "Not real,
>just exploitable heroquest paths".
>
Yep, that is the $128,000 question, isn't it? I think I'd like to go
with the "Have my cake and eat it too" solution. To the gods devoted
follower, of course the god is an independant entity. To the cynical
scientist, the "god" is just the pathes. In Glorantha I have no trouble
with them both being right. Particle or a wave, you make the call!!
>Colin Watson replies:
>>I propose that fresh paths can be forged and
>>Did this not happen with Zistor the Machine and the Red Goddess?
>
> Wasn't the Red Goddess more a case of the Seven Mother's retreading some
>very old hero paths?
>
Don't I wish I had WF 14(?) or the early Heroes mags so I could know more
about the early Lunar Empire. You bet I do. On the less bitter hand, I
think that their are other examples, Arkat, Dormal, Thanatar (a synthesis
diety), City Gods, Exarchs, Malkioni Saints, Hwarin Dalthippa, the Seven
Mothers (they may be more borrowed LB pathes). Anyway, there is, I think,
precedant for new pathes coming into being. I'm not really an expert on
HQing and all, can anyone help me out here?
>
>Alex Ferguson replies
>>To wit, the Compromise. But why is Time, Time, if there's no difference
>>in the causality "before" and "after"?
>
> There is the general theme of cyclic time in Glorantha. It's possible
>that each cycle sees itself as essentially the same, with the gods being
>the inhabitants of the previous cycle (or even earlier). So we have
>Orlanth, who replaced Umath, before whom there was the Celestial Court.
>The Dara Happan's have the same belief: the futher into the past they
>look, the more powerful the inhabitants appear.
>
> KoS even shows us the next cycle, where Argrath has replaced Orlanth.
>This seems even more likely if Barron Chugg's proposals are correct, as
>Greg has asserted. There never was any distinction between the gods and
>men in Glorantha, and never any time when they walked the land except
>when they were mortals.
>
This is deep. Frighteningly so. I get the feeling we may be moving
into the "things man was not meant to know" area. But seriously this does
sound reasonable. It's a pretty complex idea that I will admit I have yet
to grok. Maybe tomorrow...
Anyway, thanks for all the helpful comments.
Barron
---------------------
From: DevinC@aol.com
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 25 Jun 1994, part 6
Message-ID: <9406260547.tn31152@aol.com>
Date: 26 Jun 94 09:47:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4829
Devin Cutler here:
Graeme writes:
"Devin Cutler Spirits of Prax: all quite nice, and rather useful given
the very few spirit cults we've been given. Please take care not to
give shamans to full a range of rune magic, though."
I worried about this as well, although I felt that Divination should somehow
be available for Praxian Shamans.
How does one stop shamans from getting a full range of Runespells given the
following:
1) A hell of alot of spirits (worthy of Horned God type worship) are
wandering around Prax (given the fact that many of these were probably earth
deities that had their links to the land severed with the death of Genert and
never managed to be preserved by Eiritha at the Paps), and probably a lot
around Sartar and any other area as well.
So many spirits means tons of Divine Magic, most of it unique (I suppose)
2) Divine Magic seems to be about the obly thing these spirits give
worshippers.
I imagine that most wandering spirits that are tied to an element tend to
give access to Bind/Summon/Command that elemental and little else (e.g. like
Amanstan). The ones specifically mentioned in NG were, I presumed, the big
ones who had their own unique Divine Magics (remnants of when they were
subcults or actual gods and goddesses before the destruction of Genert.
Sandy writes:
" I find statements like this to be one of the most interesting
insights into the difference between the British and American RPG fan
psyche. In the old RQ2 days, we at Chaosium were accused again and
again by American players of making the Lunars out to be bad guys.
"Why can't we play Lunars?" they'd plaintively ask. It was a huge
culture shock to go to England and learn that many (if not most)
British players did NOT see the Lunars as villainous. "
Perhaps (I hope this does nto become too controversial ;-) ) it is also
attributable to the fact that Americans tend to value freedom (you know...
I'll keep my guns in my house, untouched by the government, or go down
shootin...) in ways that UKers do not (as much) , and therefore they tend to
identify with the Orlanthi as patriots. Anyways, I saw parallels between
Sartar under Lunar occupation and the US in pre-Independence days.
Frankly, even as an American (and I believe that you share my view), I always
liked the Lunar Empire. It is the society under which I would most want to
live if I dwelt in Glorantha (forget barbarians and there wars, I'll take the
Lunar Heartland Sultanates (oops... Satrapies) any day!
Martin writes:
"Re: Mistress Clam
I thought that was Molakka. Or are you a Spinal Tap
devotee, Devin? :-)"
I am afraid I do not get the reference to Spinal Tap ( I saw it a while ago
and I was, let's say, entirely unsober).
On GoG in the Prospaedia, you will find that it is Molanni, Yelm Pantheon,
daughter of Vadrus and mother of the dreaded Daga.
"Forgive me if I pop your balloon, but the Praxian spirit
cults exist in unpublished format. "
Well, my balloon remains unpopped until such time as the unpublished material
(I presume from Prax Pak) becomes published...or, until some kind soul
decides to preview it to us lucky folks on the net (hint hint whomever has
the info) :-)
"Re: location of Zoria
Joerg is right about the Fronelan Zoria, but the Uleria
write-up from Different Worlds says that there are four cities by
that name. Home of the Zorian bikini team."
Is Zoria supposed to be the Gloranthan Tanelorn (from Michael Moorcock's
books)?
"Re: historical development of atheism
According to _Without God, Without Creed_, Spinoza (1632-
1677) was the first atheist. (This is from memory, so go check
it if you care.) Before that, it was unthinkable. "
Weren't there a few Romans, esp nobility (or patricians) who were aetheists,
though not openly? It seems to me many of them cared little about the gods
and paid lip service only because it was expected of them. This seems kind of
like Atheism to me.
Paul Reilly writes:
"and other sources (leftout some examples)
had much more emphasis on the correct perfomance of rituals and/or promises
of sacrifices than on 'faith' and 'devoutness'. Even ancient Judaism
matches this description. "
Somewhat, but Judiasm (which has remained decently (although not
completely...look at the sacrificing of animals that took place and having
many wives) similar), places great importance on ritual in the Torah, but
places much more emphasis on devotion in the Oral Tradition. This can be
observed every Yom Kippur, when in the Viduy, Jews are told that they must
ask forgiveness for sins of thought and for not being fully devoted.
Regarding Jesper's speech regarding how the RQ rules shoudl live up to
Glorantha the world, I agree completely (surprise surprise!)
Joe asks:
"How common are adventurers that live longer than two or three seasons
in your worlds? "
Fairly common, but then my players have come, through long adn hard
experience, to avoid combat whenever possible, and to be very careful when it
must happen. I find that once you get lucky and find a few adventurers who do
survive a while, they become powerful enough to help out the newbies.
Also, if you really want to have PCs to survive for a while, convince one of
them to play a Chalanna Arroy (she can then plead with the Priestesses for
priority on Resurrections, and she can, every 3 POW she gains, get one for
party use.
Pam writes:
"I loved all the Prax spirits - particularly Hyena (one of my fav critters).
Devin, have you considered making Hyena female? Earthly Hyenas are highly
matriarchal,"
Thank you for the kind words. I really didn't think of Hyena as a particular
gender. I must confess that when I am writing, I fall back on the use of
masculine pronouns as a default and even masculine forms of names (like god
instead of god(dess)) as a convenience..sorry).
If Hyena society is matriarchal, then you are very likely correct. I will
look this up in my encyclopedia.
"and the female hyenas are bigger than the males."
In more ways than one (you get this if you know about a certain portion of a
female hyena's anatomy that is often quite large ;-) )
"Brother Dog's spells are good.
I suggest you add "body postures" to the list of ways to communicate using
the "Speak with Dogs" spell. (I'd love to see a Storm Khan hopping up and
down and growling....)"
Damn! I actually meant to put that in and forgot it. Thanks for reminding me.
H. Smith writes:
"I thought that some like Evening Star were overly powered).
On your second post I liked the title "Mistress Clam"--sounds like a new
spirit for Defender's Shore. ;-)"
I cannot claim credit for the title Mistress Calm, it was from Nomad Gods.
Regarding Evening Star, Nomad Gods explicitly mentions that she is a very
powerful entity and was especially powerful against darkness. This is why I
gave her intentionally powerful magic.
I wrote to Sandy regarding Resurrection:
"However, I note that it may be that your death rate for Gloranthans is a bit
low."
I meant to say that Sandy's death rate may be too high.
Regards,
Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com
---------------------
From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Subject: Gloranthan Miniatures
Message-ID: <9406260625.tn31254@aol.com>
Date: 26 Jun 94 10:25:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4830
Greetings:
I've heard that Gloranthan miniatures are still sporadically available.
However, due to a lack of trying, imagination, or who know what, my local
gaming store can't seem to help me (but, then again, these are the folks who
tried to order River of Cradles from Chaosium even though I told them it was
by Avalon Hill and gave them a stock number!).
Can anybody point me towards a source? If memory serves, there were a couple
of folks manufacturing these little gems. I am interested in Gloranthan minis
only, especially for the Broos and the like. For humans, if anybody knows of
rough equivalents, that would also help... Game store, phone numbers, etc.,
would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks much!
Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)
(Neuromancer@eworld.com)
---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Alcibiades
Message-ID: <940626164443_100270.337_BHL58-2@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 26 Jun 94 16:44:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4831
Alcibiades, for what it's worth, was a player character, a Wargamer (per
Fourfold Path), and a Socratic Illuminate. It's all laid out in Plutarch,
Xenophon, Thucydides, etc. He was the Arkat of the Peloponnesian War.
I'll lend my weighty academic backing to the thesis that personal devotion
to the deity was *far* less important in real-world ancient religion than
the correct performance of rituals. So making the former into a Western
quirk, the latter into the theistic norm, as Paul (I believe) suggested,
seems reasonable to me.
====
Nick
====