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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Sorcerers' other self
Message-ID:
Date: 27 Jun 94 14:23:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4852
Re: Paul's toe-cutting in X-RQ-ID: 4836
> OK, the phenomenon is widespread. Shamanic, theistic, and Western
> cultures all have this. I am not sure about the Easterners; instead of
> entering the Otherworld they may just gradually realize the unity of
> things - this world may _be_ their Otherworld. Not sure, leave them
> out for now.
I think Kralori have the possiblity to enter the Dragon Path to
follow their emperors from their waiting station in Vithela. This,
however, wouldn't be the standard Eastern method/religion, since the
Dragon worship seems to be one reaction to being split off Vithela
during the Storm Age.
The Vithelan way, as left in rudiments in all Eastern cultures, seems
to include the acceptance of the Void as an elemental force. In RQ3 this
has been "simulated" by the common use of "sorcery" in the East.
Could anyone more familiar with "Eastern wisdom" try to flesh this out?
> So, who are the people with a presence on the Other Side?
[...]
> Sorcerers - here I mean "full" sorcerers.
Why? Already apprentices create a not-initiate-unlike bond to their
master('s familiar/other self) upon acceptance. This is stated to be
the necessary prerequisite to learn the deeper secrets of sorcery aka
"advanced" manipulations.
> If you have an alive an conscious presence in the Otherworld, you have
> to face the demons that live there. And master them or be mastered by
> them. Jung might call this an upwelling of the Unconscious, others call
> it the fight with the Bad Man.
While this rhymes with some of the effects of illumination, I am not
sure whether I like this way of viewing the spirit world. I think of
it as a very objective projection of life-force into the spirit plane.
Certainly the Bad Man is fed with all the bad things and emotions a
candidate had and performed. All these will count as involuntary
worship, and will boost his power.
However, I see the Bad Man as a quite real entity, an objective force
actively opposing mortal meddling in the Spirit Plane. This explains
both the chance to encounter him in a summon ritual and the necessary
fight against him for a new shaman, to establish the right to trespass.
BTW, what is the feeling about the priests' and Rune Lords' spell
Discorporation from RQ2 and its discorporation on the way to RQ3?
Should Discorporation be available to at least some theist cults? To
a civilized, non-shamanic version of Daka Fal/Ancestor worship?
The religious practice of Lord Raus seems to indicate that the Daka
Fal worship as per GoG and CoP is true for non-civilized cultures only.
> The sorcerer has a different mechanism. Western culture is analytical
> and individualist rather than synthetic and collectivist (like the theistic
> cultures). They do not meld their other sides together into a God; they
> would fear the loss of individuality if they even thought this possible.
In fact, in First Age Seshnela they put so much weight in the
individuality of their ancestors that these surpassed the gods in power
and importance.
> Rather, they go even further in the other direction - instead of merging
> into a greater whole, they cut off their Other Side presence and say:
> That thing is not ME - it is something else. (A Presence, sometimes bound
> into an object as a further symbol of separation)
I think this is overstating the difference. IMO the wizard first makes
the same little step into the Otherworld as the initiate when he gets
apprenticed. This is the turning point when he commits (part of) his soul
to the understanding of the forces of the Otherworld, aka magic.
The Apprentice Bond links the initiated apprentice not to a cult or
deity, but to a master who has mastered the Otherworld hazards for
himself, and through whom the apprentice may find the secrets necessary
to access the true magic. This master will have undergone the same
gradual initiation, and so on, all the way back to either Zzabur or
the Creator's special people of the Kingdom of Logic in general.
(I think that sorcery existed before Zzabur was born, but that Zzabur
codified and regulated it from a somewhat disorganized form into the
more powerful and disciplined version of his design. The Vadeli
dissented, and kept using their approach, and were next to exterminated
in the ensuing struggle.)
> The Bad Man comes, looks
> at the sorcerer and laughs: he need not do anything, the sorcerer has crippled
> himself. The Bad Man is the guardian of the Well of Wisdom that shamans
> must pass before they would drink; the sorcerer sews his lips shut...
I don't think so at all. The apprentice has opened a link into the
otherworld which is already defended by his fully developed master,
and so on. It is a link inherited from the whole chain of masters back
to the first masters who established their right to be their in painful
contests with the other side.
How would this link be viewed by religious Western wizards? The Stygian
sects would recognize the parallel to initiation, but how about the
monotheist sects (mainy the various Hrestoli churches and the Rokari
and Galvosti church)?
First of all, do the Malkioni regard POW as part of the individual's
soul, or do they think of it as just another form of blood? POW holds
no individuality, or does it?
Does the individuality which the Malkioni expect to attain Solace
(do they?) have any life force?
> The sorcerer binds up his presence on the other side.
The adept does manifest his presence, yes. However, this happens
long after he found his initiate-like link into the other side.
> He is not assailed
> or distracted like the shaman. Of course he sees this as having full
> conscious control of his powers, which do what he tells them to, while
> the shaman and priestess live in worlds of delusion, madness, and demons.
> He does not conquer his inner demons, he _avoids confronting them_. This
> much is clear to me from the culture writeup in PB: Genertela.
I think a wizard has made enough other side contacts to know that it is
a place which defies logic. What he does is that he shields his other
side presence with logic, thereby keeping it out of the madness the
other approaches face (shamans are schizophrenic, aren't they?) or ward
off jointly (theists).
> But things that were once part of you are always part of you, in a magical
> world.
Does this pertain to enchantments made by practitioners of all approaches
of magic? Again, does sacrificed POW retain individuality?
(What influence would this have on user-restriction rules?)
> Wizards tie themselves up, substituting artificial restrictions
> for true self control and self knowledge. They bind and mutilate their
> spirits (souls) in order to achieve the control necessary to work magic.
> (always looking at this from shamanic POV here; the Wizards call it training
> and superior morality - contrast Wizard description of pagan licentiousness)
> They thus dodge out of their fight with the Bad Man. They don't face their
> inner demons, they deny them instead.
They don't face their inner demons, they imprison them by subjecting them
to analysis and logic. The wizards do not bind their other self, they bind
its opposing forces to the rules and logic they create around it.
> HOWEVER
> sometimes the knot comes untied and those demons get loose. This can
> happen in more than one way, but (Mike came up with this but I am sure he is
> right) Illumination is one such way. This wakes up your fetch.
Illumination wakes up your fetch? I don't like that, at least not the way
you formulated it. The fetch is defined as the other side self freed from
its imprisonment inside yourself. Illumination might make you aware of
this other side part of you, but I wouldn't say it creates the fetch in
any tangible way.
> Remember
> what I said about a Saint's staff coming to life? Once the fetch/vested POW/
> Otherworld Presence is awake, you must face your inner demons after all. You
> get your fight with the Bad Man.
Are you sure you suggest that the way to Sainthood in Western society is
(something like) illumination? I thought Arkat had ended this, and put a
thumb on this leak. Do you suggest that Hrestol, Xemela, Gerlant and Talor
experienced the balanced view of the nature of the Void?
I think these concepts shouldn't be that intertwined.
> Given the context of Western culture,
> this is seen as demons coming to torment and tempt you.
This is what happens when a (Hrestoli) knight holds his vigil - he faces
all his doubts and weaknesses in an enforced period of introspection. If
he masters these inner weaknesses, he is ready to take the higher
responsibilities which come with this rank. (This might explain why there
are sufficient numbers of highly skilled farmers left in Loskalm - they
have the skills, but not the commitment to master their vigils.)
A prospective saint has the same assaults, only in much less codified
and sheltered conditions than candidates for the higher offices. (I'd
expect that one of the drawbacks of the Rokari knighthood-by-birth
method is that the knights are more open to temptation than their
Loskalmi counterparts. They try to balance this by more rigid adherance
to the structures of their society. Zzabur's and Talar's Brithini did so
even more fanatically - as long as they do right, they think right. A
Brithini won't know doubt as long as he remains in his "natural"
environment. A Rokari will, and will suffer guilt. I think a lot of
Rokari religious observance involves riddance of this guilt. Penances
would be a very common occurrance among them.)
> Occassionally someone will win. He becomes a _FREE_ individual, without
> his culture restrictions or geasa - he may act as he chooses. I think
> that this is a Saint.
What makes you think that a Saint operates outside of his culture
restrictions? Both Gerlant and Paslac became saints for strict adherance
to their cultural virtues.
> A Saint has a _living_ presence on the other side.
No. A Saint _is_ a living presence on the other side. In game terms, a
living Saint permanently is on a heroquest. However, I am not sure that
living saints are a possibility on Glorantha. Maybe in the form of the
divine ruler, like Belintar the Pharaoh (who has a sizeable contingent
of Stygians in his realm, scattered through all Sixths), and possibly
the Jrusteli/Seshnegi Emperors of the Second Age, the Stygian emperors
before them, and maybe also the Carmanian kings.
Rather a saint has reached an apotheosis just like theist cult heroes
(e.g. Gerak Kag). Only by leaving the mundane world for a full other
side existence the individual with exceptional powers (aka hero) becomes
a Saint granting powers to followers of her path.
> The Saint can perform unprecedented magical
> feats (miracles?) because he is _aware_ on the Other Side; he is no longer
> following the "cookbook" needed by people who have no sense of taste.
The Saint can grant Saintly Intervention because he is _of_ and _on_
the other side, in my book.
> I think Saints can develop _naturally_ if a person is spiritually
> ready. People can achieve Enlightenment on their own (like Xemela)
> if it is their Time. Illumination can release the _knot_ before you
> are ready. Thus it is seen as evil in the West.
This is a view I support. However, a living Saint may perform miracles
(execute hero powers), but she cannot grant them. To become a full Saint,
an apotheosis is needed.
To me, a Malkioni Saint is a hero who underwent an apotheosis, thereby
leaving the world but being able to intervene on behalf of worshippers.
The Malkioni Saint is a hero within the frame of her society, not without
it - those would be the very heroquesters fought by Arkat, and at the
end of the Second Age by the universe itself.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de