Bell Digest v940628p8

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 28 Jun 1994, part 8
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From: (Captain Button)
Subject: Runemagic Ressurections for Broo Allosaurs...
Date: 27 Jun 94 11:29:42 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4871

[ New poster to the Daily.  Please be gentle.  
Does posting make me an Initiate?  If so, of what? ]

Re:  Allosauri Broos

  I like the suggestion that broos must spend POW to mate.  It puts a 
limit on broo fecundity. 

  Sandy writes:
> 	(1) You have to find an allosaur first, and then keep it  
> within sight until your shaman has finished his hour-long (or  
> whatever) ritual to discorporate. 

  Assuming that Gloranthan allosaurs are like RW allosaurs
and that allosaur behavior hasn't been rethought since I was
in school (though it may well have), an allosaur gorges on
a kill and then sleeps for a week or two.  So finding one and
keeping it in sight would be feasible then.

  OTOH, RW allosaurs had trachedons (sp?) and such to eat.  If 
such large prey is unavailable, allosaurs may have to subsist
on smaller but more frequent snacks, such as ambitious broo

  I agree that such cases will be rare.  I also agree that most wild broos
will die almost immediately after birth.  Perhaps Eiritha Priestesses 
keep a Storm Bull around during calving time, just in case?

Re: Runemagic

  I'm going to throw out a different interpretation of runemagic:
There is "really" only one event for each runespell, which
the magic makes a mystical connection to.  Thus Sever Spirit
runespells connect the caster and target to Humakt's killing of
Grandfather Mortal, the original, "real" Sever Spirit spell back in Godtime.

  Of course, the strength of the manifestation of such a primordial
spell is limited by the resources of the caster, and is thus a pale 
shadow of the original.

  New runespells are made by Heroquesting back to the Godtime,
and creating a new Primordial spell.  Heroquests to get spells
from other gods create links from the Ur-spell to the Heroquester,
which may be limited to one-use because of their indirect routing.

  (This crypto-God Learner idea is based on an unholy melding
of computer science and the quantum physics idea that there may
be only one electron going back and forth in time.)

  Comments, Flames?

Re: Resurrections 

  Another criteria for CA triage:  How long have you been dead?

  "I'm so sorry, but I didn't have a spell ready for your friend.  Yes,
I have it back now, but your friend has been dead four days now.
How much of his essence would be left now?  I think this Orlanthi 
brought in this morning will get more benefit from the Goddess's 
blessing, having died just last night, after all ...."

I Fought We Won HQ?

  Is one of the very high level Heroquests to go and fight Wakboth
(alone, yet along with everyone else) in I Fought We Won? 

Re: Yelmalio qua Yelmalio

MARTINCRIM alledges:

>     Are you using qua qua qua, or "qua" qua "qua"?  [With
> apologies to Eyebeam.  [About three people on this daily will get
> this reference]]

  Who are the other two?

  Care for some liquid cactus?   :-)

- Captain Button             


From: (Barron Chugg)
Subject: Runepathes?
Message-ID: <199406272154.OAA05294@popserver.Stanford.EDU>
Date: 27 Jun 94 06:56:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4872

Hello All.

  First a commment on nomenclature.  Before my idea is eternally labelled
"Chuggian Pathes" let me offer the name "Runepathes" (a cross between Hero
Pathes and RuneQuests, as if that weren't pretty blatant).  Not that I mind
being imortalized in this way, but...well...when I was but a wee physicist
I used to dream about discovering a new element (Chuggium) or a sub-atomic
particle (the Chuggon), and lets face it: next to a mention in the CRC, a
side bar in a game don't rate (:-)).  Anyway, considering I am not the
first explorer in this area, I think Runepathes is a nice generic.

  It seems that the hardest part of this idea for me is the question of "is
the god independant of the pathes or not".  So far I have managed to
convince myself one way, then the other, a dozen times.  I am becoming more
and more convinced that the answer is _highly_ dependant on the person
asking.  Sure, as GMs, we want a concrete answer, because, darn it, it
impacts on our gaming.  But I don't think having a set in stone answer is
good (in a mythical as well as gaming sense).  We know that people have
interacted with the gods in both manners (personal and mechanistic), so
both most be possible.  Both sides can explain the others aparent success
as well.  So why must only one be correct?  This is a great example of
paradox as opposed to contradiction.  While the two views seem mutually
exclusive, they are also both correct.  If we look at this as a
contradiction we get stuck, and will likely be forced to invalidate one
groups views.  If, on the other hand, we look on this as a paradox (in a
slightly Zen sense) where both can be true without invalidating the other,
then we can use both safely.

  Sort of like one's first semester of Quantum Mechanics.  For that brief,
shining moment, you are sure that the particle is still a billiard ball. 
Then you start to see how that is not possible.  Okay, fine, you think, it
is definately a wave.  But then again, it sure acts like a particle...but
it acts like a wave too.  Yeargh!!!  There follows an obligatory crisis of
faith.  This crisis is usually resolved when one accpets the paradox.  The
particle is either a billiard ball or a wave depending on how you look at
it.  But what, asks they aspiring student, is it when I am not looking at
it.  Ahhh, sighs the master, it is both, but niether.  Contemplate this
student, until you attain enlightenment (or a Ph.D.).

  Hope this makes sense.  I can feel several more paragraphs struggling to
get out, so if this is still unclear let me know and I'll post them.


>I said:
>>> Even in the event of success; if *any* other Humakti priests found out about
>>> it, these "new worshippers" would be excommunicated so fast it would make
>>> their heads spin clean orf. And they would be right back at square one.
>Alex (thinks he) disagrees:
>>I disagree with this particular bit: one should only be able to excomm.,
>>or sic spirits of reprisal on, cultists from the same "hierarchy".
>Indeed, but the way I see it, these chaps *are* effectively in the same

  Side note: I think "sect" would be a better word than "hierarchy".

>My view is: because the Cacodaemonists learned the rituals by rote from
>the priest it is effectively as if he had initiated them himself and therefore
>he knows full-well how to excommunicate them.

  I am not convinced that "by rote" recitation of the rituals is enough for
initiation (for ogres, maybe, but they, like illuminates, are special).  I
believe that to follow the Runepathes successfully, you need the right
"frame of mind".  This is why there are certain similarities between people
in the same cult (not all of them, but a plurality).

  [Good discussion of excommunication by way of Runepathes follows.]

  I'll go with this idea.  I think the most likely thing that would happen
is that the priest would leave a "shadow" of himself on the path looking
for the reprobate and booting him off.  I doubt the priest consciously
thinks that this is what he is doing, but it is the simplest
interpratation.  But then, I'm not sure yet how metaphorical (as opposed to
Heroquesty) the Runepathes are.

>Worshippers from geographically distant areas would tend to worship in slightly
>different ways. They may nominally all worship Humakt but their rituals
>would differ. Hence a priest from one area may be incapable of Excommunicating
>an initiate from another area.

  Righto, they have emphasised different pathes and probably see the common
pathes differently.  So the priest who leaves his "shadow" at the
crossroads he knows is not going to catch them.

Paul Reilly:
> Alex replies to me (after I replied to Sandy about DI in enemy temples):
>>Rune magic appears to work in wrongly-sanctified areas,for some weird reason.
>  I think it's because the priest is doing the Rune Magic, not the god.  He
>may have gotten it from his Goddess, but She isn't doing it.  Difference
>between selling someone a gun and committing murder.

  I'd go even a step farther (suprise!).  I think the more apt metaphor is
the difference between inventing the gun (or even teaching a gunsmithing
class) and committing murder.

Close friend of Little Elvis: (If that _is_ your real name...)

[Responding to Colin]

>It does appear that paths of worship and heroquesting can be derailed or
>even forged anew (e.g. Gold Wheel Dancers, Arkat, God Learners).  However,
>it only seems possible with a superhuman effort.  Joe Schmoe who wanders in 
>his religion is visited by nasty spirits.  Joe Hero who wanders in his 
>religion becomes a subcult.  Joe Schmoe who wanders off the heroquest path
>gets devoured by Krarsht.  Joe Hero who wanders off the heroquest path
>becomes a star in the heavens.

  This is what seperates the heroes from the schmoes.  The hero's will is
strong enough to shape the world, the shmoe's will is shaped by the world.
>Here is an idea.  Instead of a single heroic individual forging a new path, 
>what if many many unheroic people kept throwing themselves at it.  Sure, 
>most would be snuffed out, but eventually the path would be trodden enough.
>This sounds so familiar as I write it, I think it must have happened in 
>some form in Gloranthan history.

  But then, maybe the collective wills of many schmoes is enough... 
Heropath accretion, anyone? 

> ...[Good stuff on the gods and the Compromise.]... 
>It all seems too convenient for the gods.  "Oh, sorry, I can't really get
>involved because of this darn Compromise.  What?  Someone is getting
>powerful like me?  I guess the universe will just have to turn against
>them and obliterate them.  That's what they get for disturbing the
>natural order of things."  
>I think it should be called the Great Conspiracy.  

  I'd say this is too much personification.  The gods are intimately woven
into the fabric of the universe.  In many ways, they _are_ the natural
laws.  Thus, I think saying, "the gods crushed the GLs" and "the universe
crushed the GLs" ar syonomous.  Or, at worst, a matter of perspective.


 I liked the write up on the GL's downfall and the Monomyth a great deal! 
"Anti-Bodies of the Sending Gods", yuck!

David and Joerg:

  Thanks for the insight on the "how is Gbaji different from other deities"
question.  I liked your answers a lot.  Esspecially the one about Gbaji not
doing the "honorable" thing and departing the world of men.  In fact, I
liked it so mcuh I borrowed for later use in this post...

Paul Reilly:
>  I think that there is an underlying commonality in the Gloranthan magic
>systems.  To me this gives a world-flavor to Glorantha.  I wrote something
>up on this a couple of months back, I planned to do an improved version for
>general release but have not gotten to it yet, so I am releasing the
>rambling, unimproved version that was meant to be personal correspondence.
>If it is well liked I may invest the time in improving it.  Thanks.
>(I already know some people will hate it.)  This was a personal letter to
>Nick and Greg, hence the personal references.
>  Thanks for your indulgence...

  I haven't had time to digest this in the least yet, but I will soon! 
From what little I've read I like what I see.

>Oh: if the name "Saint Michelle" is too much to swallow, you could do the 
>normal Chaosium thing and corrupt it to, say "Saint Myshella" or something 
>similar (wasn't there a Moorcockian sorceress by that name?).

  My version, Saint Ellysh (or some spelling like that) was just an
inversion of Michelle, for the record.  Sick minds think alike.

>Re: Rune Magic
>     This is a rather abstract thread, so I'm going to inject
>some game-stuff into it.  Ready?  
>     In Mike Dawson's game, a trickster initiate had to steal
>something in order to gain a divine spell from a shrine he was
>     Peter Michaels has suggested (off the Daily) that a mini-
>heroquest be required to gain divine magic.  I suggest that a
>pilgrimage be a common variety of mini-heroquest, or RuneQuest
>(as someone has suggested).  

  I've always thought the gaining of runemagic in RQ was pretty sterile. 
Anything that jazzes it up is okay in my book.  I'll even restate the idea
that risk should be involved for the more important spells.



Subject: Toenail clipping
Message-ID: <9406272152.AA0200@NDROBINS.FIN.GOV.BC.CA>
Date: 27 Jun 94 22:30:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4873

I though I would put in a few scattered thoughts about Paul's
note in X-RQ-ID: 4836

I liked it, but found it to be biased to the shaman's viewpoint.  Not
that there is anything wrong with that.  Then again I'm a western
simp. :-)

It did bring forth one idea about what happens when someone dies.
Shamans complete the transformation into their fetch and become
a spirit entity, often met by other shamans.  Initiates become one with
their god, and if they are noteworthy enough (as Heros) they become
added to their God's deeds, usually as a subcult.  A very successful
subcult may gain enough status on its own to promote the Hero to
godhood, but this is rare indeed.  Sorcerors, who gave up their
connection to the 'otherworld' lose their souls as they cannot move
into their other part.  Of course, this can be considers as Solace,
and thus be a 'Good Thing'.

But taking Paul's decription of a 'saint' we can go one step further:
the enlightened, or __FREE__ individual, now has both feet planted fully
on this world and the otherworld.  With such potential, we can see how
Arkat could become a God.  A shaman can't because he knows his
place in the otherworld.  An initiate can't because she follows her god's
path in the otherworld.   The sorceror is free to create a place in the
otherworld.  (Hey, didn't Orlanth do this too?)  What makes the _free_ sorceror
so scary to the gods is the unrestricted manner in which they can
move.  Now I see what God Learners did.  Western Saints who act
responsibly are far different than the min-maxing GLs, but must still
scare the Gods.

I can see a fun evening of Gloranthan debate out of this....


Neil Robinson             NDROBINS@NDROBINS.FIN.GOV.BC.CA


From: (Kevin Rose)
Subject: Carmanians & Humakt
Date: 27 Jun 94 12:19:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4874

Nick: "Carmanian Humkti"
The question of whether he was a sorcerer or not never came up in 
discussion with the Orlanthi culture type Swords.  He was initiated in 
Carmania and I made the assumption that the Humakti in Carmania have no 
real problem with sorcrers (As Humakt was the war god of the Carmanian 
state, the cult could hardly have real problems with sorcerers.)

He wasn't a very skilled sorcerer (significantly better than apprentice, 
but not anything spectaculer.) but he had picked it up through a more 
informal sort of apprentiship.

One of his goals was to prevent anyone from asking him directly, as he 
had one of those "Never tell a lie" geas.

I didn't use the trully silly RQ3 char. creation system.  I like playing  
with characters who can do things, so I use the Christian/Greer 
system. (Write up a concept and skill set that you can live with, then talk 
to me about it so I can make it acceptable to my game.)  No die rolls 
unless you really want that sort of character.  It gives people a 
character that they can work with well and want, as opposed to the one 
they rolled and have to play.

The oposition and scenarios will tend to adobpt to the skill and 
power level of the group.  If everone is really tough, than I don't have 
to be nice guy with them.  So they get to be the group that get assigned 
to hold the wall gap against the Death Lord and his 8 troll personal guard.
(And if they hadn't critted him 3 times to the head, they would have been 
in real trouble.)

Kevin Rose


Subject: toes, typos, minis & curses
Message-ID: <>
Date: 28 Jun 94 00:22:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4875

Re: toe-cutting
     Paul, you're onto something big, I feel.  I particularly
like the metaphors.  And your explanation provides a way to
roleplay the fetch-quest, rather than roll dice .  I even
think that, if the Bad Man wins, you still become a shaman (of
sorts), but one who is controlled by his evil fetch.  The
difference would not be immediately apparent to people around
you, but over time they'd get the picture.  That's where bad
shamans (a/k/a witches) come from.  
     Of course, the opposite sometimes happens to broo shamans--
they lose to the Horned Man and discover true spirituality.

Re: Mistress Clam
     Devin, "Clam Caravan" is a song on the latest Spinal Tap
album.  It was originally Calm Caravan, but...  Likewise,
Harald's comment was about your typo.

Re: Miniatures
     Fred Kiesche: If you haven't already heard from him, email
Jim Degon at for a price list.  Or call Chessex at
(510) 843-1194, fax (510) 843-9257.  They're in Berserkely, CA. 
I ordered some, got most of what I ordered, and was reasonably
happy with what I got and the speed of service.  (Got a refund
for out-of-stocks.)

Re: curses
     Graeme, I had a set of rules for what I call "woven magics,"
which include blessings, curses, and rituals of all kinds.  The
comment I got back from Greg Stafford (at second hand) was that
all rune magic worked that way.  But if you're interested, I'll
send you what I have (a work in progress) for your comments.

Re: Valgrim Bull-Answers-Thrice
     Guy, I was glad to hear that he went out in a blaze of
glory.  Surely, his name will live forever.  Parents will name
their sons after him for generations.  He may even get a little
shrine in the local Storm Bull temple.  

"This is it, we're all going to die."
--Battle cry of the Duke Roleplaying Adventure Gaming
Organization (Drago)



From: (Kevin Rose)
Subject: Gloranthan Miniatures
Date: 27 Jun 94 14:48:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4876

Fred:RQ figures

Games Plus {(708) 577-9656} has most of the old figures in stock, two or 
three of each.  Whether they can get more is another question.

Kevin Rose


From: (Antti_Heiskanen)
Subject: Pictures
Message-ID: <>
Date: 28 Jun 94 13:44:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4877

>From: (Alex Ferguson)
>Why not investigate jpg -> gif conversion?  I know that xv for X-Windows
>does this, at least.  If people are mad keen on having gif versions, lacking
>ay jpg viewing/conversion facilties, some of we Technically Superior people
>could perhaps upload such conversions, too.

The pictures were uploaded in JPEG, because they doesn't look so good in 
256 colours (GIF). I can send the GIF versions to Shannon, if people 
insist and Shannon is willing to take them to FTP.



From: (Dogs Playing Poker)
Subject: Whack-a-both the Storm Bull Carnival Game
Message-ID: <>
Date: 28 Jun 94 04:37:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4878

This is in response to the person who couldn't get into playing their
"awakened" herd man character. Here is the trickster perspective.

HERD MAN  (with apologies to Joliet Jake and Elwood)

Coming to you, on the plains of Prax 
Good loving, and average skill with Axe
and when you get hit, you wound something
So start to worry, 'cause broos are coming

{ deep backup }
I'm a (( herd man ))
I'm a (( herd man ))
I'm a (( herd man ))
I'm a (( herd man ))

Got what I got, the hard way
and I'll flee morocanth, each and every day
So honey, don't you fret
'cause you ain't been illuminated yet

I was brought up, on grasses and wheat
grazed the plains , so morocanth could eat
I was bred, from good stock
Bought by traders and brought to the Block

Well grab a spirit, and I'll put it in
Give you Int, and be your only boyfriend ya ( ya ) ya ( ya ) help!