From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 28 Jun 1994, part 8 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: button@illuminati.io.com (Captain Button) Subject: Runemagic Ressurections for Broo Allosaurs... Message-ID:Date: 27 Jun 94 11:29:42 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4871 [ New poster to the Daily. Please be gentle. Does posting make me an Initiate? If so, of what? ] _________________ Re: Allosauri Broos I like the suggestion that broos must spend POW to mate. It puts a limit on broo fecundity. Sandy writes: > (1) You have to find an allosaur first, and then keep it > within sight until your shaman has finished his hour-long (or > whatever) ritual to discorporate. Assuming that Gloranthan allosaurs are like RW allosaurs and that allosaur behavior hasn't been rethought since I was in school (though it may well have), an allosaur gorges on a kill and then sleeps for a week or two. So finding one and keeping it in sight would be feasible then. OTOH, RW allosaurs had trachedons (sp?) and such to eat. If such large prey is unavailable, allosaurs may have to subsist on smaller but more frequent snacks, such as ambitious broo shamans. I agree that such cases will be rare. I also agree that most wild broos will die almost immediately after birth. Perhaps Eiritha Priestesses keep a Storm Bull around during calving time, just in case? ____________ Re: Runemagic I'm going to throw out a different interpretation of runemagic: There is "really" only one event for each runespell, which the magic makes a mystical connection to. Thus Sever Spirit runespells connect the caster and target to Humakt's killing of Grandfather Mortal, the original, "real" Sever Spirit spell back in Godtime. Of course, the strength of the manifestation of such a primordial spell is limited by the resources of the caster, and is thus a pale shadow of the original. New runespells are made by Heroquesting back to the Godtime, and creating a new Primordial spell. Heroquests to get spells from other gods create links from the Ur-spell to the Heroquester, which may be limited to one-use because of their indirect routing. (This crypto-God Learner idea is based on an unholy melding of computer science and the quantum physics idea that there may be only one electron going back and forth in time.) Comments, Flames? _______________ Re: Resurrections Another criteria for CA triage: How long have you been dead? "I'm so sorry, but I didn't have a spell ready for your friend. Yes, I have it back now, but your friend has been dead four days now. How much of his essence would be left now? I think this Orlanthi brought in this morning will get more benefit from the Goddess's blessing, having died just last night, after all ...." __________________ I Fought We Won HQ? Is one of the very high level Heroquests to go and fight Wakboth (alone, yet along with everyone else) in I Fought We Won? _________________________ Re: Yelmalio qua Yelmalio MARTINCRIM alledges: > Are you using qua qua qua, or "qua" qua "qua"? [With > apologies to Eyebeam. [About three people on this daily will get > this reference]] Who are the other two? Care for some liquid cactus? :-) - Captain Button button@io.com --------------------- From: bchugg@leland.stanford.edu (Barron Chugg) Subject: Runepathes? Message-ID: <199406272154.OAA05294@popserver.Stanford.EDU> Date: 27 Jun 94 06:56:15 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4872 Hello All. First a commment on nomenclature. Before my idea is eternally labelled "Chuggian Pathes" let me offer the name "Runepathes" (a cross between Hero Pathes and RuneQuests, as if that weren't pretty blatant). Not that I mind being imortalized in this way, but...well...when I was but a wee physicist I used to dream about discovering a new element (Chuggium) or a sub-atomic particle (the Chuggon), and lets face it: next to a mention in the CRC, a side bar in a game don't rate (:-)). Anyway, considering I am not the first explorer in this area, I think Runepathes is a nice generic. It seems that the hardest part of this idea for me is the question of "is the god independant of the pathes or not". So far I have managed to convince myself one way, then the other, a dozen times. I am becoming more and more convinced that the answer is _highly_ dependant on the person asking. Sure, as GMs, we want a concrete answer, because, darn it, it impacts on our gaming. But I don't think having a set in stone answer is good (in a mythical as well as gaming sense). We know that people have interacted with the gods in both manners (personal and mechanistic), so both most be possible. Both sides can explain the others aparent success as well. So why must only one be correct? This is a great example of paradox as opposed to contradiction. While the two views seem mutually exclusive, they are also both correct. If we look at this as a contradiction we get stuck, and will likely be forced to invalidate one groups views. If, on the other hand, we look on this as a paradox (in a slightly Zen sense) where both can be true without invalidating the other, then we can use both safely. Sort of like one's first semester of Quantum Mechanics. For that brief, shining moment, you are sure that the particle is still a billiard ball. Then you start to see how that is not possible. Okay, fine, you think, it is definately a wave. But then again, it sure acts like a particle...but it acts like a wave too. Yeargh!!! There follows an obligatory crisis of faith. This crisis is usually resolved when one accpets the paradox. The particle is either a billiard ball or a wave depending on how you look at it. But what, asks they aspiring student, is it when I am not looking at it. Ahhh, sighs the master, it is both, but niether. Contemplate this student, until you attain enlightenment (or a Ph.D.). Hope this makes sense. I can feel several more paragraphs struggling to get out, so if this is still unclear let me know and I'll post them. ----------------------- Colin: >I said: >>> Even in the event of success; if *any* other Humakti priests found out about >>> it, these "new worshippers" would be excommunicated so fast it would make >>> their heads spin clean orf. And they would be right back at square one. > >Alex (thinks he) disagrees: >> >>I disagree with this particular bit: one should only be able to excomm., >>or sic spirits of reprisal on, cultists from the same "hierarchy". > >Indeed, but the way I see it, these chaps *are* effectively in the same >hierarchy. Side note: I think "sect" would be a better word than "hierarchy". > >My view is: because the Cacodaemonists learned the rituals by rote from >the priest it is effectively as if he had initiated them himself and therefore >he knows full-well how to excommunicate them. I am not convinced that "by rote" recitation of the rituals is enough for initiation (for ogres, maybe, but they, like illuminates, are special). I believe that to follow the Runepathes successfully, you need the right "frame of mind". This is why there are certain similarities between people in the same cult (not all of them, but a plurality). [Good discussion of excommunication by way of Runepathes follows.] I'll go with this idea. I think the most likely thing that would happen is that the priest would leave a "shadow" of himself on the path looking for the reprobate and booting him off. I doubt the priest consciously thinks that this is what he is doing, but it is the simplest interpratation. But then, I'm not sure yet how metaphorical (as opposed to Heroquesty) the Runepathes are. > >Worshippers from geographically distant areas would tend to worship in slightly >different ways. They may nominally all worship Humakt but their rituals >would differ. Hence a priest from one area may be incapable of Excommunicating >an initiate from another area. Righto, they have emphasised different pathes and probably see the common pathes differently. So the priest who leaves his "shadow" at the crossroads he knows is not going to catch them. Paul Reilly: > > Alex replies to me (after I replied to Sandy about DI in enemy temples): > >>Rune magic appears to work in wrongly-sanctified areas,for some weird reason. > > I think it's because the priest is doing the Rune Magic, not the god. He >may have gotten it from his Goddess, but She isn't doing it. Difference >between selling someone a gun and committing murder. I'd go even a step farther (suprise!). I think the more apt metaphor is the difference between inventing the gun (or even teaching a gunsmithing class) and committing murder. Close friend of Little Elvis: (If that _is_ your real name...) [Responding to Colin] >It does appear that paths of worship and heroquesting can be derailed or >even forged anew (e.g. Gold Wheel Dancers, Arkat, God Learners). However, >it only seems possible with a superhuman effort. Joe Schmoe who wanders in >his religion is visited by nasty spirits. Joe Hero who wanders in his >religion becomes a subcult. Joe Schmoe who wanders off the heroquest path >gets devoured by Krarsht. Joe Hero who wanders off the heroquest path >becomes a star in the heavens. This is what seperates the heroes from the schmoes. The hero's will is strong enough to shape the world, the shmoe's will is shaped by the world. > >Here is an idea. Instead of a single heroic individual forging a new path, >what if many many unheroic people kept throwing themselves at it. Sure, >most would be snuffed out, but eventually the path would be trodden enough. >This sounds so familiar as I write it, I think it must have happened in >some form in Gloranthan history. But then, maybe the collective wills of many schmoes is enough... Heropath accretion, anyone? > ...[Good stuff on the gods and the Compromise.]... > >It all seems too convenient for the gods. "Oh, sorry, I can't really get >involved because of this darn Compromise. What? Someone is getting >powerful like me? I guess the universe will just have to turn against >them and obliterate them. That's what they get for disturbing the >natural order of things." > >I think it should be called the Great Conspiracy. > I'd say this is too much personification. The gods are intimately woven into the fabric of the universe. In many ways, they _are_ the natural laws. Thus, I think saying, "the gods crushed the GLs" and "the universe crushed the GLs" ar syonomous. Or, at worst, a matter of perspective. Sandy: I liked the write up on the GL's downfall and the Monomyth a great deal! "Anti-Bodies of the Sending Gods", yuck! David and Joerg: Thanks for the insight on the "how is Gbaji different from other deities" question. I liked your answers a lot. Esspecially the one about Gbaji not doing the "honorable" thing and departing the world of men. In fact, I liked it so mcuh I borrowed for later use in this post... Paul Reilly: > > I think that there is an underlying commonality in the Gloranthan magic >systems. To me this gives a world-flavor to Glorantha. I wrote something >up on this a couple of months back, I planned to do an improved version for >general release but have not gotten to it yet, so I am releasing the >rambling, unimproved version that was meant to be personal correspondence. >If it is well liked I may invest the time in improving it. Thanks. >(I already know some people will hate it.) This was a personal letter to >Nick and Greg, hence the personal references. > > Thanks for your indulgence... I haven't had time to digest this in the least yet, but I will soon! From what little I've read I like what I see. Nick: > >Oh: if the name "Saint Michelle" is too much to swallow, you could do the >normal Chaosium thing and corrupt it to, say "Saint Myshella" or something >similar (wasn't there a Moorcockian sorceress by that name?). > My version, Saint Ellysh (or some spelling like that) was just an inversion of Michelle, for the record. Sick minds think alike. Martin: > >Re: Rune Magic > This is a rather abstract thread, so I'm going to inject >some game-stuff into it. Ready? > In Mike Dawson's game, a trickster initiate had to steal >something in order to gain a divine spell from a shrine he was >visiting. > Peter Michaels has suggested (off the Daily) that a mini- >heroquest be required to gain divine magic. I suggest that a >pilgrimage be a common variety of mini-heroquest, or RuneQuest >(as someone has suggested). I've always thought the gaining of runemagic in RQ was pretty sterile. Anything that jazzes it up is okay in my book. I'll even restate the idea that risk should be involved for the more important spells. TTFN Barron --------------------- From: NDROBINS@NDROBINS.FIN.GOV.BC.CA Subject: Toenail clipping Message-ID: <9406272152.AA0200@NDROBINS.FIN.GOV.BC.CA> Date: 27 Jun 94 22:30:08 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4873 I though I would put in a few scattered thoughts about Paul's note in X-RQ-ID: 4836 I liked it, but found it to be biased to the shaman's viewpoint. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Then again I'm a western simp. :-) It did bring forth one idea about what happens when someone dies. Shamans complete the transformation into their fetch and become a spirit entity, often met by other shamans. Initiates become one with their god, and if they are noteworthy enough (as Heros) they become added to their God's deeds, usually as a subcult. A very successful subcult may gain enough status on its own to promote the Hero to godhood, but this is rare indeed. Sorcerors, who gave up their connection to the 'otherworld' lose their souls as they cannot move into their other part. Of course, this can be considers as Solace, and thus be a 'Good Thing'. But taking Paul's decription of a 'saint' we can go one step further: the enlightened, or __FREE__ individual, now has both feet planted fully on this world and the otherworld. With such potential, we can see how Arkat could become a God. A shaman can't because he knows his place in the otherworld. An initiate can't because she follows her god's path in the otherworld. The sorceror is free to create a place in the otherworld. (Hey, didn't Orlanth do this too?) What makes the _free_ sorceror so scary to the gods is the unrestricted manner in which they can move. Now I see what God Learners did. Western Saints who act responsibly are far different than the min-maxing GLs, but must still scare the Gods. I can see a fun evening of Gloranthan debate out of this.... Neil _______________________________________________________________ Neil Robinson NDROBINS@NDROBINS.FIN.GOV.BC.CA --------------------- From: vladt@interaccess.com (Kevin Rose) Subject: Carmanians & Humakt Message-ID: Date: 27 Jun 94 12:19:10 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4874 Nick: "Carmanian Humkti" The question of whether he was a sorcerer or not never came up in discussion with the Orlanthi culture type Swords. He was initiated in Carmania and I made the assumption that the Humakti in Carmania have no real problem with sorcrers (As Humakt was the war god of the Carmanian state, the cult could hardly have real problems with sorcerers.) He wasn't a very skilled sorcerer (significantly better than apprentice, but not anything spectaculer.) but he had picked it up through a more informal sort of apprentiship. One of his goals was to prevent anyone from asking him directly, as he had one of those "Never tell a lie" geas. I didn't use the trully silly RQ3 char. creation system. I like playing with characters who can do things, so I use the Christian/Greer system. (Write up a concept and skill set that you can live with, then talk to me about it so I can make it acceptable to my game.) No die rolls unless you really want that sort of character. It gives people a character that they can work with well and want, as opposed to the one they rolled and have to play. The oposition and scenarios will tend to adobpt to the skill and power level of the group. If everone is really tough, than I don't have to be nice guy with them. So they get to be the group that get assigned to hold the wall gap against the Death Lord and his 8 troll personal guard. (And if they hadn't critted him 3 times to the head, they would have been in real trouble.) Kevin Rose --------------------- From: Argrath@aol.com Subject: toes, typos, minis & curses Message-ID: <9406272022.tn90319@aol.com> Date: 28 Jun 94 00:22:23 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4875 Re: toe-cutting Paul, you're onto something big, I feel. I particularly like the metaphors. And your explanation provides a way to roleplay the fetch-quest, rather than roll dice . I even think that, if the Bad Man wins, you still become a shaman (of sorts), but one who is controlled by his evil fetch. The difference would not be immediately apparent to people around you, but over time they'd get the picture. That's where bad shamans (a/k/a witches) come from. Of course, the opposite sometimes happens to broo shamans-- they lose to the Horned Man and discover true spirituality. Re: Mistress Clam Devin, "Clam Caravan" is a song on the latest Spinal Tap album. It was originally Calm Caravan, but... Likewise, Harald's comment was about your typo. Re: Miniatures Fred Kiesche: If you haven't already heard from him, email Jim Degon at jdegon@iii.com for a price list. Or call Chessex at (510) 843-1194, fax (510) 843-9257. They're in Berserkely, CA. I ordered some, got most of what I ordered, and was reasonably happy with what I got and the speed of service. (Got a refund for out-of-stocks.) Re: curses Graeme, I had a set of rules for what I call "woven magics," which include blessings, curses, and rituals of all kinds. The comment I got back from Greg Stafford (at second hand) was that all rune magic worked that way. But if you're interested, I'll send you what I have (a work in progress) for your comments. Re: Valgrim Bull-Answers-Thrice Guy, I was glad to hear that he went out in a blaze of glory. Surely, his name will live forever. Parents will name their sons after him for generations. He may even get a little shrine in the local Storm Bull temple. "This is it, we're all going to die." --Battle cry of the Duke Roleplaying Adventure Gaming Organization (Drago) --Martin --------------------- From: vladt@interaccess.com (Kevin Rose) Subject: Gloranthan Miniatures Message-ID: Date: 27 Jun 94 14:48:24 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4876 Fred:RQ figures Games Plus {(708) 577-9656} has most of the old figures in stock, two or three of each. Whether they can get more is another question. Kevin Rose --------------------- From: Ana@fenix.fipnet.fi (Antti_Heiskanen) Subject: Pictures Message-ID: <9406280144.1awz@fenix.fipnet.fi> Date: 28 Jun 94 13:44:05 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4877 >From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson) > > >Why not investigate jpg -> gif conversion? I know that xv for X-Windows >does this, at least. If people are mad keen on having gif versions, lacking >ay jpg viewing/conversion facilties, some of we Technically Superior people >could perhaps upload such conversions, too. The pictures were uploaded in JPEG, because they doesn't look so good in 256 colours (GIF). I can send the GIF versions to Shannon, if people insist and Shannon is willing to take them to FTP. -antti --------------------- From: timbee@timbee.rnd.symix.com (Dogs Playing Poker) Subject: Whack-a-both the Storm Bull Carnival Game Message-ID: <9406280337.AA07161@timbee.rnd.symix.com.symix> Date: 28 Jun 94 04:37:01 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4878 This is in response to the person who couldn't get into playing their "awakened" herd man character. Here is the trickster perspective. HERD MAN (with apologies to Joliet Jake and Elwood) Coming to you, on the plains of Prax Good loving, and average skill with Axe and when you get hit, you wound something So start to worry, 'cause broos are coming { deep backup } I'm a (( herd man )) I'm a (( herd man )) I'm a (( herd man )) I'm a (( herd man )) Got what I got, the hard way and I'll flee morocanth, each and every day So honey, don't you fret 'cause you ain't been illuminated yet I was brought up, on grasses and wheat grazed the plains , so morocanth could eat I was bred, from good stock Bought by traders and brought to the Block Well grab a spirit, and I'll put it in Give you Int, and be your only boyfriend ya ( ya ) ya ( ya ) help!