From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 29 Jun 1994, part 2 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172) Subject: misc Message-ID: <01HE2H7B7ZXIQZEJXL@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU> Date: 28 Jun 94 02:45:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4884 - Devin on how to stop shamans from gaining too many spells Referring back to the spirit cult writeups in Borderlands, the process used to actually link to these spirits is quite involved. You have to find or have a physical icon/fetish that links to the spirit. You have to travel the spirit plane to reach the spirit following the spirit's trail (kind of like tracking with a good chance I think of losing the trail or running into something else mean and nasty also tracking along that trail). You have to convince the spirit that you will properly worship it (and then follow through on the deal). In this last case, the spirit will place conditions upon the shaman ("I, the River Horse, am a spirit of the water--if you wish to worship me you must abandon these spirits of air and fire for they are my foes"). And of course, you have to have enough worshippers to make a shrine to each and every spirit (which if I remember right requires a POW sacrifice to maintain the link between the worshippers and the spirit plane). The ability of the shaman to link to lots of spirits is limited by his own and his follower's POW and the willingness of each spirit to link to a shaman who also worships other spirits. I suspect a maximum of 5-10 spirits is all that a shaman can handle. And a further complication is that after the link is established all the enemies of that spirit are now the shaman's enemies. These spirits can trace the magic flow from the spirit plane to the mundane plane and attack the shaman there. (And I suspect that these are not minor ghosts either.) - Sandy writes about use of Lunars in British vs American campaigns My campaigns have with one brief exception been pro-Lunar with almost entirely Lunar characters. Of course, I also lived a year in England when I was young, so I'm probably tainted. - Alex on Carmanian/Persian empires I might suggest that the Carmanian "empire" is no more squished under the Lunars then the Persian "empire" was squished under the "minor" conquest of Alexander (which only left a Seleucid Greek dynasty for around two hundred years). Perhaps the liberation of Charg will reveal the true new "Parthian" dynasty waiting to return. --Harald --------------------- From: shillada@gatwick.sgp.slb.com Subject: Herioc Deaths Message-ID: <9406281253.AA09798@icarus.gatwick.sgp.slb.com> Date: 28 Jun 94 12:53:16 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4885 Re: Valgrim Bull-Answers-Thrice Good way to go. Reminds me of a similar incident that occured whilst I was GMing 'Snake Pipe Hollow'. Otto, a faithful follower of the Bull (:-)), saw Fil-ith, and charged screaming into the fray as he cast Beserk. Unfortunatly, he missed his first strike, and then received a critical hit to the head which killed him instantly. He was famed long after for his courage, valour, and bad dice rolling. I considered fudging the result, but the PC's were winning, and it WAS a fitting end. --------------------- From: niwe@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander) Subject: Mostly about the east Message-ID: <9406281447.AA15049@ppvku.ericsson.se> Date: 28 Jun 94 18:47:28 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4886 Nils Weinander writing Joerg presents some good thoughts on eastern philosophy in a reply to Paul's "Sorcerer's toe": >> OK, the phenomenon is widespread. Shamanic, theistic, and Western >> cultures all have this. I am not sure about the Easterners; instead of >> entering the Otherworld they may just gradually realize the unity of >> things - this world may _be_ their Otherworld. Not sure, leave them >> out for now. {Yuk, I shouldn't do these double quotes} > >I think Kralori have the possiblity to enter the Dragon Path to >follow their emperors from their waiting station in Vithela. This, >however, wouldn't be the standard Eastern method/religion, since the >Dragon worship seems to be one reaction to being split off Vithela >during the Storm Age. > >The Vithelan way, as left in rudiments in all Eastern cultures, seems >to include the acceptance of the Void as an elemental force. In RQ3 this >has been "simulated" by the common use of "sorcery" in the East. > >Could anyone more familiar with "Eastern wisdom" try to flesh this out? I am by no means familiar with eastern wisdom, but since I have been writing about the subject of eastern Glorantha despite my ignorance I can't resist expanding a bit on this. Paul's suggestion that the easterners gradually realize the oneness of this world and the otherworld corresponds fine with the concept I have called the 'paradox of the void' in my Red Tiger stories: the revelation that nothingness and existence are one. A game mechanicky representation of this could be a "skill" of 'Spiritual enlightenment' (not to be confused with illumination). The better you are at this skill, the closer you understand the oneness of the worlds, or in other words, the closer you grasp the nature of the Void. My latest thoughts on eastern "sorcery" is that there are two forms of magic. The first is used as spirit magic or low sorcery as a personal magic to enhance your performance. But as the oneness is the important point here it doesn't seem very magical: it is merely a question of enhancing existing skills by concentrating on reaching harmony with the environment of the action performed. In game mechanics terms: if the character succeeds in a 'Spiritual enlightenment' roll, she has entered the right mindset for the task at hand. Then each magic point spent will give a +5% bonus to the skill success chance. The maximum number of magic points spendable is 'Spiritual enlightenment' / 10. The effect lasts as long as the character concentrates exclusively on the action thus boosted. Whenever she starts doing something else the 'trance' is ended. The Martial arts skill of Kralorela is such a skill based magic in my opinion (to enhance unarmed combat). There should probably be a limit on the number of skills a character may enhance this way, 'Spiritual enlightenment' / 10 for example. The second form of sorcery is used as high sorcery, to cast spells. But instead of fixed spells as in the western sorcery tradition the mystic or whatever name is preferred knows magic areas, based on elements, powers or whatever. Any effect relating to a certain area, e.g. the element Water, may be created magically. This I think corresponds well to Godunya's 'divine magic' as described in GoG. Since there is no mundane skill involved it is more difficult to make the magic "happen", thus the mystic must roll for both 'Spiritual enlightenment' and a focus skill which substitutes the mundane skill used in the personal magic described above. I like to think of the focus skill as some kind of artistic performance, e.g. poetry, calligraphy or dance. Imagine the surprise of characters from central or western Genertela when they see a yellow-skinned man dancing up a fire, or healing a wound by reading a poem. To reconnect to the Void/oneness concept I think a second effect of the mystic mode sorcery is to be able to pick up magic points from the world/otherworld you become one with. In game mechanic terms, the mystic should be able to do magic without using his own magic points, if he takes more time to meditate on the effect and the environment, perhaps a minute or an hour for each magic point. Now this is probably more controversial than the rest of this stuff, but it would certainly give eastern magic a flavour of its own. This isn't really sufficiently fleshed out yet. Comments are appreciated. _____ Captain Button on rune spells: > I'm going to throw out a different interpretation of runemagic: >There is "really" only one event for each runespell, which >the magic makes a mystical connection to. Thus Sever Spirit >runespells connect the caster and target to Humakt's killing of >Grandfather Mortal, the original, "real" Sever Spirit spell back in Godtime. Now that's a fresh idea. I like it! _____ Captain Button again: >I Fought We Won HQ? > > Is one of the very high level Heroquests to go and fight Wakboth >(alone, yet along with everyone else) in I Fought We Won? My character Kyra Dragonlady has done it. When the fight was over she found to her great dismay that she had been fighting along with a troll, yet under the circumstances couldn't slay the bastard afterwards (what, Kyra prejudiced against trolls? naah, they just ate her little brother...). _____ Neil on afterlife: >It did bring forth one idea about what happens when someone dies. >Shamans complete the transformation into their fetch and become >a spirit entity, often met by other shamans. Initiates become one with >their god, and if they are noteworthy enough (as Heros) they become >added to their God's deeds, usually as a subcult. A very successful >subcult may gain enough status on its own to promote the Hero to >godhood, but this is rare indeed. Sorcerors, who gave up their >connection to the 'otherworld' lose their souls as they cannot move >into their other part. Of course, this can be considers as Solace, >and thus be a 'Good Thing'. Really neat, this idea of Paul's makes a lot of things fall in place. To reconnect to my rantings above on the eastern way: as an easterner grows ever more unified with the world and the otherworld he comes closer to release from the cycle of reincarnation. Thus when you have perfected your 'Spiritual enlighenment' and then die it is the final death whereafter your spirit becomes one with the universe. _____ Antti Heiskanen on his fabulous pictures: >The pictures were uploaded in JPEG, because they doesn't look so good in >256 colours (GIF). I can testify that the pictures are stunning as 256-colour GIFs. I can only imagine how they look in full 24-bit colour... _____ /Nils W --------------------- From: jclannom@mathlab.mtu.edu (Joe Lannom) Subject: Don't step on the storm bulls. Message-ID: <9406281451.AA28058@mathlab.mtu.edu> Date: 28 Jun 94 14:51:49 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4887 Sandy jotted: |> Almost certainly not. I doubt many scenario writers bother to |> figure out the magical ecology of the situations presented. For |> instance, in CoP, Storm Bull was presented as a major Impala tribe |> deities. Yet to my knowledge not one scenario in which a Storm Bull |> appears has presented him as specializing in the use of missile |> weapons. It just doesn't seem "right" somehow. Now, I agree that it |> doesn't seem right, but the Impala Storm Bulls must do _something_ |> when they face chaos, and I bet it's not charge with couched lance. |> Maybe they throw small, cube shaped chunks of rock at it. joe --------------------- From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake) Subject: Runes Message-ID: <199406281536.XAA21807@cs.uwa.oz.au> Date: 29 Jun 94 07:46:11 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4888 >PAMALT: owned by Pamalt. Represents: Pamalt's special power. This is >a sort of artificial Rune invented by the God Learners to describe >Pamalt's powers that seemed to transcend the other Runes. It is based >on a native Doraddi sigil. Tales 11 called it the Power Rune (which I seem to recall either Greg or Sandy calling it at one time). I play this (I am not sure if I believe it, but I believe some people believe it). Tales 11 also say it represents Kinship, which I do not go for much (it leaves me kind of luke warm, as with most of the Tales Pamaltela issue, because I didn't like John Hughes stuff that much (I thought it was much too obviously Australian Aboriginal, rather than Pamaltelan (whatever that may be)). I think Kinship is an oversimplification, and one aspect of the idea that is not that particularly associated with Pamalt (now Faranar might tell you that Kinship is it, but that is one reason why Pamalt is more important, because he understands better). I think Pamalts power is in cooperation, and everything in the right place. It is the power of Pamalt as leader, not because he is the most powerful, or because he is the most morally worthy, (though these may be true) but because it is his rightful place to be leader, and he knows everyones rightful place. It differs from Harmony in that it is an order that includes the harmony shattering warriors, and that can be used to fight, like Pamalt fought Vovisibor (not a harmonious act, but the classic use of his power). In some respects Pamalts Power is not putting society at peace, but making the tensions within society into strengths, not weaknesses. To Pamalt, the old women want Harmony and peace, and value kinship, the warriors want warfare and disorder and a chance to prove their individual prowess in battle, and value great deeds above lineage, and both are right, and both are wrong, and both are necessary for the tribe to be safe, sucessful, and strong. Anyway, thanks Sandy for writing this. I got much the same information from you and Greg many years ago (6 or 7) and have repeated it on the daily at least twice already, so I am glad to see you say it so that hopefully it doesn't need to be repeated again. Cheers Dave --------------------- From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake) Subject: Patriotism, kill it before it spreads Message-ID: <199406281537.XAA21840@cs.uwa.oz.au> Date: 29 Jun 94 07:47:18 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4889 Devin Cutler says, rather foolishly >Perhaps (I hope this does nto become too controversial ;-) ) it is also >attributable to the fact that Americans tend to value freedom (you know... >I'll keep my guns in my house, untouched by the government, or go down >shootin...) in ways that UKers do not (as much) , and therefore they tend to >identify with the Orlanthi as patriots. Anyways, I saw parallels between >Sartar under Lunar occupation and the US in pre-Independence days. Might as well say that as an American, you value barbarism, or simplistic versions of national affairs. It has probably about the same amount of truth (ie a gross overgeneralisation with only a vague and subjective basis in fact). If we are going to generalise on a national basis, I would have thought that the UK gaming community being generally so fond of Celtic culture the Orlanthi would have been natural favourites. Lets stop this thread before it spreads! As an Australian :-) (generally a nation distrustful of earnest nationalism, and lacking confidence in its own cultural identity) nationalist assertions look rather silly, so lets keep 'em strictly muted. I suspect any difference that may exist is more likely due to differences in gaming culture (largely determined geographically, from earlier discussion), rather than national culture. On the particular issue of Lunars versus Orlanthi, I suspect the lack of information on the Lunars may have been a barrier to play for many in the US, and I suspect the closer knit UK gaming community was better able to overcome it by sharing ideas. Cheers Dave --------------------- From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake) Subject: Resurrection availability. Message-ID: <199406281536.XAA21802@cs.uwa.oz.au> Date: 29 Jun 94 07:46:01 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4890 > This means there >are 70 Chalana Arroy healers in our hypothetical city. Of this >number, maybe 2 will be High Healers, with reusable Rune magic. > I suspect that the proportion of initiates to Rune levels is much lower that this in the Chalana Arroy cult (or any other cult where being an initiate implies full time professional status at a cult craft). My feeling is that, while becoming a High Healer is difficult, most CA initiates who have been working as a professional healer for a decade or two will easily qualify on the skill grounds. I think the numbers are more like 1 in 4 or 5 full time cult members attains High Healer status. To consider it in terms of modern medicine again, think of medical specialists. Even once you have a medical degree, you need to prove yourself and try hard to get accepted, and then put in many years of training. Despite this, a large proportion of doctors are specialists, because the requirements are not that arduous if you where going to act as a full time medical professional anyway. This differs from, for example, the Orlanth cult, which requires combat skills to attain Rune level, and some other rather strange skill requirements (Storm speech? it makes perfect sense, but who is going to learn it for reasons other than religious or magical ones), while most of the population are farmers with little or no reason to develop such skills to a high level. I agree with estimate of approximately 3% of the population or less Rune level for Orlanthi, and indeed most cults. But I think the %age is much higher for cults like Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, where many initiate worshippers basically spend most of their life exercising the skills necessary for Rune level. I actually like this, otherwise Rune levels of these cults are really rare. Basically it suits my campaign if for every 10 Orlanth Rune levels, there are 3 or so Issaries or Chalana Arroy rune levels, where as the Orlanth initiates outnumber the CA initiates far more than 3 to 1. So the %age of rune levels in such cults are higher. > I bet children are heaps higher on the priority list than a dead >adventurer, who is probably a murderous robber anyway. A reasonable number of my adventurers (and I suspect many other peoples) are either highly placed in Lightbringer cults, or are owed favours by people that are, so I tend to suspect that they get fairly high priority. I can't really see the CAs getting away with 'I don't care if he is a Wind Lord, he waits in line like everybody else' - at least on a regular basis. Anyway, Resurrection availabilit is just one of those things that each GM should suit to his campaign. Sometimes I like to have PCs easily resurrected (if they have blundered into a Basilisk that kills half of them, or something), other times (they deliberately chose to charge to a gruesome death fighting an allosaur or something) I am happy for them to stay dead. For death to keep its sting, characters should know that resurrection is a last ditch reprieve, not a routine. But sometimes I like to give that reprieve to characters who die unluckily, that I would rather keep in the campaign. Just GM style. Cheers Dave --------------------- From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake) Subject: Re: the Great Babeestor Gor Robbery Message-ID: <199406281537.XAA21837@cs.uwa.oz.au> Date: 29 Jun 94 07:47:10 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4891 >David Cake: [me explaining that in theory even restrictive cults like BG can be scammed by performing rituals, sacrificing POW, when not truly dedicated] > >I broadly agree, but I think we need to examine the concept of "cult >restriction" more closely. There are about three general sorts of such, >I think, (to falsely trichotomise): > >Absolute geas-level prohibitions: a Humakti being resurrected, a Healer >killing someone, not turning up at a HHD ceremony. Major defined >consequences, whatever the particular manner of your local worship. > Restrictions that the spirits of reprisal and the god can normally 'smell' straight away, and are attracted or repelled by respectively. I don't put missing the HHD in this category necessarily (but failing to observe it at all without a good reason might count). These sort of prohibitions are the ones that without the intervention of the cult will still have bad consequences (apart from the illuminated, who feel no guilt and so whose violations cannot be sensed). Another thing is that most of these restrictions are strongly tied to cult magic, and so I conceive of as being part of the 'link' to the deity. I feel that the only way to avoid such restrictions is to be illuminated (well, there is always HeroQuesting). Probably making yourself into a traditional enemy of the cult (Humakti assassins, Babeestor Gor despoilers of the Earth) may count in this category, but it may not. >Culturally influencable restrictions and you-really-shoulds: Humakt codes of >honour and dueling conventions, CA healing protection, attendance at regular >worship, display of appropriate cultic virtues. Various secondary >consequences, such as decreased likelihood of DI, or regaining rune magic. > I general say that these things are mostly problems with the cult, and are not tied to cult magic as strongly as the first category. They are restrictions, but most of the bad consequences can be avoided if the cult never finds out (they can usually cast divination to find out, though). Only in cults with unusually hyper spirits of retribution (like Orlanth) do the spirits necessarily detect such things (my conception of the Orlanthi is that the impests spend their days spying on everybody, tallying up wrong doing). >Local cult fripperies: Cult garb, paying the tithe, calling the high priest >Your Immense Booga-Woogawship twice per sentance. No inherent consequences, >though said cult will get on your case about it, and may even declare you >inactive, sic a spirit of reprisal on you, or even excommunicate you. > Definately requires the intervention of the cult, without the priests hassling you, the deity is completely uncaring. >> Theoretically an oath breaker or despoiler of the earth could even do this. > >I'm not exactly sure what you mean by these categories: I'm sure that an >initiate of Babs who defiles an earth temple, or holy site is heading >swiftly for the Ex-initiate category at a rate of knots. > But not an illuminated initiate that keeps her evil deeds strictly secret. Possibly illumination might not be necessary always (particularly if she was unaware she had done it). But if the rest of the cult find out, better start running (and never stop). Cheers Dave >Alex. >