Bell Digest v940629p3

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Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 29 Jun 1994, part 3
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From: eejuffs@swansea.ac.uk (Philip Juffs)
Subject: Swiss Sun Domers and the Economics of Shamanhood
Message-ID: <15309.9406281602@faith.swan.ac.uk>
Date: 28 Jun 94 16:02:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4892

Hi,`

There I was carefully writting a responce to my last posting when
ZAP the whole system goes down with all the mail etc on it. 
i.e. I can't quote what I'm replying too.

But here goes anyway ... ;-)

Someone (Sandy P. I think) said that the Swiss weren't like the 
Greek Phalanx.  I agree! They probably ran on time for start :-)
I was pointing out that just because a unit uses the same weapon
does not mean that it will operate in the smae way or have the same
results against a partiular enemy.

Also, though phalanx type units operated in wide shallow formations
nearly all the time, this was not always the case e.g. Thebans.  

Someone else said that the Romans had met and defeated the Maceadonians.
True as well, but I was talking speciffically about Alexander, whome
they never met, and whose army was superior to the Successor States that
followed him. (Well most people seem to think AtG was superior.)


Right, now a question for all those Gloranthan Socio-economists out there:

How common are shamans in citys, and if (as I suspect) there aren't very
many of them, where do city folk get the Spirit Magic spells that are not provided 
by there cult?  Will any cult teach its spells to lay members or strangers
for a fee?  Maybe wizards could summon Spell Spirits in some cultures, but
judging from Strangers in Prax there aren't too many in Paivs, and they 
would probalby think it rather suspect anyway. From RQ2, as I recall
(it was long time ago) you just paid your cash and that was it.

Sorry if this topic has been discussed b4, but I only subscribed a week ago.

TTFN ;-}
	Phill Juffs

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From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re:  RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 28 Jun 1994, part 4
Message-ID: <9406281642.AA02635@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 28 Jun 94 16:42:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4893

Paul replying to Graeme:

  Sorry about the shamanic propaganda.  Some of the Lost Portion was from
the Wizard's point of view, which is quite different.  I will try to recreate
it.

  I can only write from one POV at a time, usually.  You may like the same
material viewed from the Wizard's POV.  The p[revious document was really
"What the Shaman Who Has Been Infected By the God Learners Into Even
Thinking about What Other Cultures Think Says"

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From: curtiss@netcom.com (Curtis Shenton)
Subject: Illuminates and Death
Message-ID: <199406281719.KAA13862@netcom8.netcom.com>
Date: 28 Jun 94 03:19:31 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4894

Sandy says
>Dave P. asks:
>>What does an illuminate think will happen to him after death?
>	I suspect most illuminates don't worry much about it.

I'm curious about this since it's something I've wondered about to.
While I'd be willing to accept that illumination might change some
people's views about death I still think many if not most illuminates
would still want to go to an afterlife. Also can an Illuminated Humakti
be resurected?

---------------------

From: drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu (David Cheng)
Subject: Pro-Sartarite Bias amongst Yanks
Message-ID: 
Date: 28 Jun 94 16:44:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4895

I would like to second Sandy's beliefs that most folks are anti-Lunar /
pro-Sartarite.  By folks, I mean _players_ - us.

In Home of the Bold I, at Convulsion, two years ago, the Sartarites easily
came together to oust us Lunars (Sandy should know - he was the big
Sartarite ringleader).  Most of the Sartarite Tribal Chieftans found it
very easy to overlook the inter-tribal animosities written into their
characters.  This is a common phenomenon we all learn in Sociology 101.

For HotB II, we actively decided to make the Lunar position stronger.
The tribal frictions were written with stronger language, and rules 
for raiding and slaughtering your neighbors were added.  It was our
intention to skew the balance in favor of the Lunars.

However, all our work seemed to go for naught.  I honestly believe the
Lunars got crushed even worse in HotB II.  I think almost 20 Sartarite
tribes sent their thanes to the gates of Boldhome (but don't quote me
on that, as I don't remember much from that whole weekend).  A few got
Lunar treasure as spoils, but returned home to find their steads burnt
to the ground and their women and children enslaved by the pro-Lunar
tribes that raided them.

So, yes, I would strongly agree that there is a pro-Sartarite bias in
most players.  Stafford fosters this, as he makes it well known he's a
Sartarite at heart.

* David Cheng     drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu     cheng@io.com
  (212) 472-7752 [before midnight]                       GEnie:  D.CHENG

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From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Runepathes... or possibly Runepaths
Message-ID: <9406281632.AA07043@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk>
Date: 28 Jun 94 17:32:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4896

____________
Barron Chugg:

>  It seems that the hardest part of this idea for me is the question of "is
>the god independant of the pathes or not".

There was a time when the gods walked their paths for the First Time. At that
time the gods could be thought of as "independant" of their paths. But today
the gods *are* the paths. This is what people worship; and also how they
worship. This is the timeless nature of the gods: they *are* everything they
ever *did*.

My theory is that anyone who does anything New leaves a small etching on the
godplane. If you do something so great that other people want to copy it
to get the same result then the etching becomes a path. The gods did
many Outstandingly Cool things which a lot of people wanted to repeat for
similar results. And so people began worshipping the gods; that is, they
began following the paths over and over again to get the same results as
the First Time. Some paths are small and simple (Runepaths); others are
lengthy and complex (HeroQuests).

For a hero to ascend to Godhood he must perform actions so immense that
others will want to follow in his footsteps. By following in his path
these others are worshipping him. They make the path deeper; they make
his myths greater; they make Him stronger. At this point the Hero is
not an individual; he is The Path Describing What He Did. He is not just a
person travelling along the path; he *is* the path.

"Do the ritual and Orlanth responds reflexively by giving magic" is perhaps
too simple an explanation. It's more like Orlanth *is* the ritual; Orlanth
*is* the response; and, for a moment, the person doing the ritual *is*
Orlanth. God, Cult and Path are somewhat unified.
By repeating what has gone before you get the same results as the First Time.


... or something like that.  :)



>  I am not convinced that "by rote" recitation of the rituals is enough for
>initiation (for ogres, maybe, but they, like illuminates, are special).  I
>believe that to follow the Runepathes successfully, you need the right
>"frame of mind".

I was assuming "frame of mind" was part of the ritual. A certain amount
of mental discipline may be required, but I don't think that the participants
have to hold any particular beliefs (other than, perhaps, the belief that
the magic will work).
The way I see it, Illuminates are only "special" in that they *realise*
they don't have to believe anything to get magic from the gods. 

___
CW.


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From: sstair@cs.utep.edu (Steve Stair GS)
Subject: Gloranthan Names
Message-ID: <9406281812.AA03291@grouse>
Date: 28 Jun 94 19:12:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4897

Sandy Petersen:
> It's a time-honored tradition
> to name Gloranthan places and names after people. Cam's Well, the
> Biggle Stone, Waha the Butcher, the Tada Shi, Yan Starcere, 
> Swenstown, Jonstown, Makla Mann, and numerous other Gloranthan points 
> are _all_ named after quite specific folks who are alive today.

Could you illuminate me as to the source of these names?

Stephen Stair
sstair@cs.utep.edu

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From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re:  RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 28 Jun 1994, part 8
Message-ID: <9406281708.AA02932@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 28 Jun 94 17:08:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4898

  Paul on Toe Chopping post, replying to the Many:

  I didn't put this in the preface, but I should have.

  This was a personal note to GREG.  OF COURSE I put it from the shaman's POV.
I will try to write it up from the Wizard's POV later, when I get time...

  The Priestess view is strongly dependent on which God she follows, so I may
skip it, or wait till it jells.
  Thanks, 
  Paul R.

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From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Geases; LotR Vinga
Message-ID: <199406282209.AA04276@radiomail.net>
Date: 28 Jun 94 22:09:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4900

Alex complains
>David Dunham:
>> Geases
>
>"Geasa", surely. ;-)

See Pagan Shore. I'll stick with English grammar; I've seen "geas" as
"geis" and the plural as "geissi." And I'm still pronouncing it with 2
syllables so my players know what I'm talking about.

>I've always been a bit leery of the
>de facto "only Truth Rune cults grant gifts and geases" thing

"gifts and geasa," surely :-) I view geases as an honor thing (in Pagan
Shore, you lose Honor by breaking geases). The Ralios Orlanthi are a little
more concerned with honor than the Dragon Pass/Maniria Orlanthi (who are
tainted by their Malkioni influence, I guess), so they still follow geases.
Apparently when Christianity showed up in Ireland, everyone was glad to
give up geases, and I don't see why the Orlanthi would be different. They
can be a pain.

Roderick Robertson informs
>The Lord of the Ring line (can't remember the manufacturer) has 
>some good figures, but they are larger than normal (~30-35mm instead 
>of 25), and cost $2.25 for foot figures. I buy them only for 
>personalities, not rank-and-file! They have good 'Generic Celtic' figures

One of my players is using one of these figures for a Vingan. She's quite
tall, but does have hair that's almost spiky -- and she has a Motion rune
on her shield! (I figure Motion is Vinga's big rune.)


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From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172)
Subject: misc
Message-ID: <01HE322RGA8MQZEO22@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: 28 Jun 94 12:45:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4901

Hi everyone--

- Goroh/Andre on Dorastor question #3

At last a way to conveniently move my old campaign group from the Elder 
Wilds (Griffin Island does not exist in my Gloranthan world, but the 
Spider Island certainly does) to Dorastor!  I'll go for this one.  What 
would we do without chaos (all praise the Red Goddess!)?

- Scott responding to Sandy on incest

If I remember correctly from the "Montaillou" work I cited yesterday, 
the peasants of the 13th cen Pyrenees were not averse to incestuous 
relationships (of course, the area was a hotbed of Catharism and 
strongly condemned by the Catholic inquisition, but you can't be perfect 
if you're human).  Such relations, while not common, did occur.

--Harald



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From: Aden_Steinke@uow.edu.au (Aden Steinke)
Subject: Seven Mothers - Where written up
Message-ID: <199406282342.JAA02126@wyrm.cc.uow.edu.au>
Date: 29 Jun 94 20:38:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4902

Hi All;

A question regarding the cult of the Seven Mothers, is there a current complete
write up of the component sub cults available anywhere?

My Etyries initiate has been offered the opportunity to join T7M for services
to the Lunar state, but I would like to know more about it.

Thanks

Aden Steinke

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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Alex admits Godtime time...
Message-ID: 
Date: 28 Jun 94 23:43:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4903

Alex in X-RQ-ID: 4846

> Gregged Again.  Imagine My Disgust.

Gregged by Genertela Book?

>> Since there is no nobility but through 
>> meritocratic ascension, one can assume these are the ruler class of 
>> the Hrestoli system.

> What, and Archbishops aren't?

Just so. Archbishops aren't decision-makers (aka "Talars" in Brithini).

> I've no idea whether
> Hrestol ever became king, but that's no argument against the king beinf seen
> as his embodiment.  (This would imply a glorious/sacrificial/martyr's death
> for Hrestol, though.)

Agree on the martyr's death, but the Serpent King Dynasty remained 
unbroken until 150 ST.

I said:
>> The Rokari are more likely to kill infidels or force-
>> convert them than the Hrestoli, who might allow their pagan subjects 
>> to qualify for their farmer caste, but won't proselytize except by 
>> example, in the 3rd Age.

> The Hrestoli don't _have_ Orlanthi subjects, even in Junora, so far as
> I'm aware.  The pagans and assorted Malkioni sects seem to be (for the
> moment) independant (of each other, as well as of Loskalm).  If they did,
> I hardly thing that peaceful coexistance would be the order of the day.

The Hrestoli in Old Loskalm don't have any. These make up probably one half 
of all Hrestoli in Glorantha. I was talking about the other half, including 
all the Loskalmi adventurers making their fortune in freshly Ban-freed 
Fronela.

> I see what you mean (at last)

Thank and praise the Celestial Court! 

> but I disagree.  Suppressing and brutalising
> peasants is obviously all well and good, but the Loskalmi are clearly going
> to disapprove of having a static "Farmer" class, even if there is class
> mobility for the upper tiers.  I'm taken with Nick's suggestion that all
> the frothing at the mouth in G:G about the Jonatings is Loskalmi
> propaganda...

I don't think so. A sound measure of oppression belongs to the type of 
societies we face on Glorantha, even the Lunar Empeire, the allegedly 
most liberal society on the lozenge with GeStaPo/Stasi-like controlling 
organs.

>> Prince is a little defined title, mainly denoting a class membership if 
>> used in a late medieval feudal sense: male people belonging to the 
>> families of the higher nobility rulers, be they kings, dukes or princes 
>> themselves.

> Rulers, not in the sense of "ruling nobility", but of _royalty_.

Royalty as in Dukes...

There is no royalty in the sense of inheritance in Loskalm (although 
there is among the non-Loskalmi Hrestoli). Loskalmi royalty might be 
the sacrificial post of decision taker, call it Talar or whatever.

> So all Hrestoli Talars are "Princes?"  Even the ones who're Kings or
> Archbishop?  I doubt it.

Still "prince" seems a better title in English than "ruler"...

Alex in X-RQ-ID: 4849

> Nope, they say Yelm rises at those (or thereabouts) dates, yup, but before
> that (the first, that is), there _are_ no dates.  It's The Moment.  Timeless
> reigns.  Afterwards, it isn't, and doesn't.  Does that sound like the start
> of time to you?  Let me rephrase that: doesn't that sound like the start
> of time to everyone else?

Yes, especially the moment at 0 YT. In Godtime.

I think that Yelm introduced a certain scheme of temporal order in his 
realm, if he didn't inherit it already from the Celestial Court.

I remember you opposing any causality, let alone timshness, of Godtime. 
Did you see the light?


-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: Argrath@aol.com
Subject: Deja vu, just like the last time
Message-ID: <9406282201.tn142081@aol.com>
Date: 29 Jun 94 02:01:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4904

Joerg asks:
"First of all, do the Malkioni regard POW as part of the
individual's soul, or do they think of it as just another form of
blood? POW holds no individuality, or does it?"

     The blood analogy has always worked for me, although I
usually think of MP, rather than POW, as like blood.  The people
who ask to borrow a MP-storage device should get the response you would give
if someone said, "Can I borrow a pint of blood?  I'll
give you a pint back later."  
     This is off the point, but in Mike Dawson's "mojo" system,
using someone else's MPs to cast a spell at them is an almost
certain way to succeed.  This dispenses with the irritating way
PCs pass MP storage devices around.

Joerg, I think you missed the place where Paul said he was
talking about the three magic systems from the shamanic POV. 
There being no objective POV, it is necessary to adopt a
subjective Gloranthan one.  Later, he can do the other magic
systems from their own POVs, but for right now you need to
understand the limitations of the way he's working.  I think it's
a fine idea, and I'd like to see it fleshed out.  When he's got
into shape, we can take it apart more and see how it works. 
Doing so now is not helpful.

Liked the Hrestoli knight's vigil, though why only Hrestoli?  All
sects should have this at some stage.

Can't a Saint be still living in the world?  Our world has
certainly had plenty of people who were considered saintly during
their lifetimes.  Sure, when he's gone, he IS, as opposed to has,
a living presence on the OS.

Alex:
Being militia is proper for the Farmer class, so they're hardly
untrained, or breaking caste prohibitions.

Jonas says:
"you are still assuming that you know what it means to
_hold_a_belief_, and that this psychological mechanism remains
the same throughout the ages. Which may very well be true, who
knows? It's at any rate not _a_priori_ ridiculous as a
methodological assumption."
     Despite the apparent irrelevancy and general obscurity of
the phrase "know what it means to _hold_a_belief_", there are
great differences in beliefs:

     I believe it might rain tonight.
     I believe that all drugs should be legalized.
     I believe that causality exists.
     I believe in things I can't even tell you about, because I
assume them at such a deep level that they are invisible to me
and I have never even considered the possibility that they might
be wrong.

     Isn't it clear to you that there are differences, even
within your own experience, in what "believe" means?  Haven't you
met someone different enough from yourself (from a non-Western
country, radical, or insane) who obviously thought differently
from you, and started from a different base of experiences?  The
modernist looks at the non-Westerner, the radical, and the crazy
person and say, "They're wrong, and I'm right."  The pre-
modernist doesn't even realize that there are different world-
views.

Nils added:
"mundane actions are part of the ritual of the cults."
     Clearly.  And an Orlanthi plowing his field, and an Ernaldan
baking bread.  If you are tuned in, everyday actions are
ritualized in a life-affirming way.
     "These are my magical acts:
     Hewing wood and drawing water."
               --Some Taoist Sage

Nils, anybody can CONTACT Dayzatar, but few would want to.  His
rune spells are useless, and his cult restrictions are
burdensome.  That doesn't mean the Teshnans can't _claim_ that
their worship of him is the most ancient in the world, but how do
you verify that claim?

Andre:
I think the initiate who misses the high holy day does become
inactive automatically, even if he has a good excuse.  The excuse
gets him readmitted the next time he does come to the temple.  
Question #2 is answered in Dorastor.
Q 3: Griffin Island is not in Glorantha.
Q 4: It would take an Aranea cultist anthropologist with immense
patience and luck to connect with the spiders.

Chris Pearce:
Who is Barntar?  After a lot of debate on this Daily, I still
believe that he is a god within the Orlanth cult.  In some times
and places, he is the god whom plowmen worship.  However, for
game purposes, use the Orlanth cult.

Alex Ferguson asks us to decline "geas."
No thank you.

Re: Five Arkats
I had a character meet four of them, and only one was apparently
a fraud in my world.  The character tried to test them (having
met Arkat previously on the hero plane), and at least one failed
the test (despite being mostly authentic).  All of them were, in
my mind, aspects of Arkat, though.

Alex on causality:
Hrm, I wasn't sufficiently obscure.  Hint: Look for the paradox.

Alex on multiple suns and embedded quotes:
The point of "Lies with Truth" is thinking about who the various
Praxian tribes worship as the sun dome and how they do it. 
Everything else was intro/peripheral.  

Unreconstructedly (but not unconstructivistly or... oh, forget
it),
     Martin