From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 30 Jun 1994, part 2
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From: niwe@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander)
Subject: On eastern things, as usual
Message-ID: <9406291207.AA28276@ppvku.ericsson.se>
Date: 29 Jun 94 16:07:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4913
Nils Weinander writing
Nick on eastern views of magic/the otherworld:
>I've just come up with a couple of quick suggestions for integrating them.
>Maybe Nils can comment: he handles the Eastern material better than I ever
>will.
I'm most flattered.
>Add: Mystics (including the Draconic, Kralori and Illuminated varieties).
>
>> The shaman jumps into the pool of water.
>> The priestess cautious sticks her toe in, with a lifeguard handy.
>> The sorcerer cuts off his toe and throws it in the pool - "That's not
>> me, it's something else that I can reach into the Otherworld with"
>
>The mystic says, "What pool?" Or perhaps the mystic is a fish, or water.
>He does not "jump into" anything: he becomes a part of it, and it of him.
>The two are indistinguishable.
Here is what Red Tiger says of the matter:
'...
The realm of magic can be likened to a pool of water. A child is
afraid of the pool, because he knows not what lurks under the
surface. A wise man knows that the water in the pool comes from
the same source as the water he drinks. Thus the pool is present in
the man, and the man is present in the pool. When you see that,
there is nothing to be afraid of.
...'
>> Things that were once part of you are always part of you, in a magical
>> world.
>
>And so the Kralori strive to eliminate the self? Different, less limited
>kinds of magic would become possible for the one who Is Not. You have no
>"handles" any more: the world cannot affect you, because you are not part
>of it. Or, perhaps, because you *are* it. (Not a part: the whole). (The
>whole which is the hole: as all is nothing).
I.e. the paradox of the Void: everything springs from nothing =>
every object == nothing => every object == every other object.
_____
Martin on Dayzatar:
>Nils, anybody can CONTACT Dayzatar, but few would want to. His
>rune spells are useless, and his cult restrictions are
>burdensome. That doesn't mean the Teshnans can't _claim_ that
>their worship of him is the most ancient in the world, but how do
>you verify that claim?
As for contacting Dayzatar, yes you _can_, but it's mighty
difficult. As for the rune spells I wouldn't call Compel truth
useless. As for the Teshnans I must have expressed myself in
unclear words. I wasn't writing about the Teshnans' own view of
things. I quote myself:
NW>Another thought: if we see Zitro Argon/Dayzatar as more oftenly
NW>worshipped in Teshnos than in other lands this can have two
NW>implications: either the Teshnans know some secret on how to
NW>reach this aloof god, or his worship, Teshnos mode, started in
NW>incredibly ancient times, before he withdrew beyond the sky
NW>dome. The second would make Teshnan society _very_ old
What I meant was, which is more likely from an _objective_ view-
point. {gasp! objective history - heresy! :-)}
Anyway, I got a new idea the other day: the proto-Teshnans before
time did worship Zitro Argon as god of the Sacred caste. When the
god withdrew they were of course affected, more difficult to use
his rune magic etc. The proto-Teshnans' reaction was to see this
as a dicine punishment. So they set out to better themselves by
striving for spritual perfection. This has evolved to the way of
life interpreted by others as the lethargy of Teshnos. Thus Nick's
idea of a 'curse of the gods' is back in the picture. Plausible?
I then continued the same line of thought: what if Harstar is
Teshnos' contribution to the hero wars? Maybe he succeeds in
lifting Teshnos from its philosophizing torpor, leading fierce
solar warriors to greatness, with the surprising result that more
action, not more thinking and meditation is what was needed to
draw Zitro Argon closer to the world again? I am going to use this
plot in my upcoming eastern campaign.
/Nils W
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From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com (I'm down with the V-E-G!)
Subject: absence of incest
Message-ID: <01HE3UFF22O28Y96J4@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com>
Date: 29 Jun 94 02:34:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4914
SandyP>No doubt, but surely you see this is a similar example to the
>Egyptian sister marriages
Oh, yes. That's why I mentioned it. It's particularly interesting
to note that the Polynesian cultures came up with this idea
independently of the Egyptians. (Egad! I'm starting to sound like a
pedant!)
>_forbidden_ to the common folk.
Good point, Sandy.
--Scott
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From: a2230798@athena.rrz.uni-koeln.de
Subject: Unexplained Teshnan Gods
Message-ID: <9406291511.AA25163@hpw1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Date: 29 Jun 94 18:11:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4915
Hello out there, this is Ralf Engels typing
I'd like to ask your opinions with regards to the fiery fields of Teshnos,
and especially about their three peculiar gods mentioned in Genertela Book
(well, make that two peculiar ones and one I know practically nothing about
except that he's a brother of Yelm, to wit : Zitro Argon/Dayzatar).
Reason : Two of my unfortunate players' characters, seemingly devout
citizens of the benevolent Dragon Empire of Kralorela, perished utterly and
deservedly when they comitted the perfidy to attack their accompanying
Godunya Mystic NPC (although they got him nevertheless). Now they have
chosen to shift their abode to Teshnos, so I would appreciate as well any
thoughts about the Teshnans and their way of life.
Now, here goes :
1) Zitro Argon/Dayzatar : Some hints on this daily seem to indicate the
existence of a long cult write-up for this deity. Can anybody post
this to me or at least tell me where to find it.
By the way, does he have some function as a knowledge god/patron of
learning (as indicated by Hector; SUN COUNTY).
2) Calyz : First of the peculiar ones, he is said to be the god of men and
common folk. His role includes a smith aspect, a love/fertility
aspect and a third one that at the moment escapes my mind.
Could he be an agricultural deity, like the plowman or the Good
Peasant (child of Yelm and presumably Dendara ?), or an even broader
concept, like The Village God, embodying every task and skill a
person living in a village should know (smithing, carpentry,
husbandry, fertility prayers, etc.)?
Further question : why is there no female goddess mentioned apart
from Furalor (?)/the death goddess ? I assume there should be Denda-
ra and also a Grain/Land goddess ( Teshna, Fethlona (after all, they
have really good connections with the yellow elves ???)), or possibly
even two revered Grain goddesses (rice,barley).
3) Furalor (?): Death goddess. Is she like Ty Kora Tek ? Or would a more
fiery goddess, whose burial rites involve mandatory cremation, be
more appropriate (after all, they do have Solf/Lodril with CREMATE
DEAD, although he may not own this spell in Teshnos) ?
The other two, Solf/Lodril and Somash/Yelm, seem to pose less problems for
me. In particular I like the lazy,gluttonous and egoistic description.
And by the way, I do think that the Teshnans field plattoons of elephants
mounted by saddles/turrets with archers/javelin throwers.
Well, so little for today. I thank everyone in advance for their patience in
reading the above and (hopefully) their efforts in providing their views to
this topic.
So long ( and I don't like fish)
Ralf
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From: ROBERTSON@delphi.intel.com (Roderick Robertson)
Subject: You say Geissi, I say Geasa, you say GE-as, I say Ges
Message-ID:
Date: 29 Jun 94 17:01:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4916
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
>
>"Geasa", surely. ;-)
>See Pagan Shore. I'll stick with English grammar; I've seen "geas" as
>"geis" and the plural as "geissi." And I'm still pronouncing it with 2
>syllables so my players know what I'm talking about.
Ah, the wonderful differences between Scottish (Geas, Geasa) and
Irish gaelic (Geis, Geissi). My personal theory, after wading through
gaelic pronunciation, is that the written language was invented by an
illiterate. "Dh? hm, let's see, if it is at the beginning of a word,
we'll pronounce the "D", but if it is in the middle, we'll sort-of
pronounce the "H", and if it is at the end, we'll just not pronounce
it at all." AGGGHHH!
>...I view geases as an honor thing (in Pagan
>Shore, you lose Honor by breaking geases).
Irish Geissi can also kill, albeit indirectly (Chuchulain, anyone?).
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>The Lord of the Ring line (can't remember the manufacturer) has
>>some good figures, but they are larger than normal (~30-35mm instead
>>of 25), and cost $2.25 for foot figures. I buy them only for
>>personalities, not rank-and-file! They have good 'Generic Celtic' figures
>One of my players is using one of these figures for a Vingan. She's quite
>tall, but does have hair that's almost spiky -- and she has a Motion rune
>on her shield! (I figure Motion is Vinga's big rune.)
Dunland Heroine, she just came out this year along with a whole line of
"XX Heroine" figures. My figure is also a red-spiked-hair type.
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: The Head Herisarch Speaks.
Message-ID: <9406291723.AA20750@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 29 Jun 94 17:23:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4917
Sandy raves:
> THE MONOMYTH
> One of the God Learner "secrets" was that the Monomyth was/is TRUE!
This is hardly a secret, they screamed their own self-satisfaction in it
from any handy rooftop. But was it _really_ true? That it "worked" for
a while, and in a limited area, merely shows that it was a useful working
model, or approximation, within that domain. That is doesn't work elsewhere
and eventually came such a serious cropper shows that it had more than the
odd bug or twelve.
> They found that when they went on an Orlanthi heroquest in
> which he slew the sun, they could "jump tracks" at the Solar contest,
> and now go along the Yelm side of the quest.
Big deal. The Theyalans and Pelorians had already "agreed" that their
myths each mentioned the other, so there was already a basis for a "combined"
myth. You seem to be partly claiming that if the godplane exists in any
quasi-objective way, then it proves that the Jrusteli monomyth is an accurate
representation of it.
> [...] the God Learner usage of creative
> heroquesting demonstrated the essential unity of Gloranthan myth and
> made sense out of the jungle of fairy tales and legendry that had
> existed up to that time.
Just like turn of the century earthly "scientific" mythography did the same
for us? Like Lewis Spence "proving" that Ancient Eygpt must have gone
through a shamanistic phase of worship, since it was part of the Scientific
Pattern, and other howlers.
> Now that the God Learners are all gone, the Monomyth is
> gradually disassembling, and the once-useful unity is degrading back
> into the myth-jungle that existed before Arkat's time.
Useful for powergaming freebooters, you mean.
> Barron Chugg:
> >What Malkionism needs is a good, crusading female saint
> I'm sold.
On the contrary, Sandy, you're one of the sellers.
I rather like the idea having such a figure, but I don't think she'd cause
a riot of popularity among the hierarchies of either of the main Malkioni
sects. Perhaps St. Michelle might spring up in Junora, where she tries to
lead the fight against the English^H^H^H^H^H^H^HKingdom of War, all the
while tring to avoid being burnt at the stake by the French^H^H^H^H^H^H
Loskalmi.
> [The Trowjangi] breed with their god, who visits
> every single one of them once a year on a special sacred night. This
> arrangement suits them fine, as apparently sex with him is 294 times
> as good as with a normal man.
Or maybe just 294 times as long.
Alex.
---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest
Message-ID: <9406291930.AA12135@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 29 Jun 94 07:30:42 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4918
The Pamalt Rune: David Cake mentioned that this Rune is also called
the Power Rune, which is quite true. Tales 11 also called it the
"Kinship" Rune, which it may indeed be called in parts of Pamaltela,
but I think it is mainly Power or Pamalt.
The God Learners considered it to be a Condition Rune, like
Magic, or Mastery. When one considers that there are a whole series
of Runes called "Power" Runes, the true significance of Pamalt's Rune
becomes clear -- as Dave says, he uses the conflicting powers of Life
and Death, of Harmony and Disorder, and so forth to recognize the
importance of them both. This is NOT the same as the Lunar Balance,
but no doubt to an outsider it would appear so.
The essential Pamalt theory is that Opposition is needed in
all things. One cannot know peace unless there has been a war. There
is no light without darkness. One cannot know pleasure without the
existence of pain.
Devin mentions the obvious truth:
>>Perhaps (I hope this does nto become too controversial ;-) ) it is
>>also attributable to the fact that Americans tend to value freedom
David C. retorts:
>Might as well say that as an American, you value barbarism, or
>simplistic versions of national affairs.
But, David, we DO value barbarism and simplistic versions of
national affairs! I don't think that our "valuing" of freedom (which
I don't think exceeds the Australian one, at least if our stereotypes
about Oz are accurate) changes the fact that we have some rather
disreputable national characteristics.
re: Chalana Healers
>I think the numbers are more like 1 in 4 or 5 full time cult members
>attains High Healer status.
Okay, I'll admit that the proportion of High Healers to
initiates is probably more like 1:10 instead of 1:50. I also agree
with your assertion that 1 in 4 healers eventually make it to High
Healer, but at any given time, the numbers are less than this
proportion, through attrition and death. Note that CA initiates
probably get killed more often than other peaceful cults -- not as
often as Storm Bull or Humakt, but certainly more commonly than
Mastakos, Ernalda, or Lhankor Mhy, since they are on frequent call to
accompany warriors into battle. Of course, the initiates probably get
first call on Resurrections, but still ...
But I concur with your theory that certain cults have more
Rune levels proportionally than others. However, this must be figured
independently for every cult -- for instance, you mention Lhankor
Mhy as a possible source of more Rune levels. I picture the Lhankor
Mhy temples as hotbeds of intrigue as qualified initiates angle for
the few priestly positions. Lhankor Mhy may have lots of acolytes,
but I don't think there are many priests in any temple.
>A reasonable number of my adventurers (and I suspect many other
>peoples) are either highly placed in Lightbringer cults, or are owed
>favours by people that are, so I tend to suspect that they get
>fairly high priority.
Everyone's campaign is different. My own PCs are homeless
wanderers, and so I naturally assume everyone's campaign is like
mine. At least, I did until about fifteen years ago, when I
discovered the amazing range of difference between RQ campaigns.
In any case, it sounds like your campaign's use of
resurrection is much like mine, even though our styles obviously
differ -- I use resurrection as a way to mitigate death's sting when
a character has been unjustly offed.
Phil Juffs ponders:
>How common are shamans in citys, and if (as I suspect) there aren't
>very many of them, where do city folk get the Spirit Magic spells
>that are not provided by their cult?
Shamans are, of course, uncommon in cities. However the old
witch woman who lives in a shack on the main road to town is a
standard feature (i.e., she's a shaman). Depending on the culture,
there is often a shaman somewhere in the city's neighborhood. You may
not be able to find one in a grand Pelorian city like Yuthuppa, but
in an Orlanthi town like Boldhome, it's likely that there are shamans
in the mountains.
But in any case, most Spirit Magic spells don't come from
these shamans. Instead, they are accessed from one's cult. You can
get spells from your cult real cheap (sometimes free, depending on
the cult and the spell), and you can also get spells from all
associated cults fairly inexpensively. For instance, if you are an
Orlanthi living in Boldhome, you have access to the following spirit
spells via associate cults: Befuddle, Bladesharp, Bludgeon,
Coordination, Countermagic, Demoralize, Detect Enemies, Detect Magic,
Detect [all], Dispel Magic, Disrupt, Dullblade, Endurance,
Extinguish, Fanaticism, Farsee, Glamour, Glue, Heal, Ironhand, Light,
Mindspeech, Mobility, Protection, Repair, Second Sight, Shimmer,
Slow, Speedart, Strength, Vigor
Now, there are clearly some missing spells from this list --
but Darkwall, Firearrow, Fireblade, Ignite, Lightwall, Multimissile,
& Spirit Screen, to be exact. Some ritual shaman-type stuff is also
absent, but who needs that with Rune magic?
I play that "friendly", though not associated cults, will
sell you spirit magic if you are not of bad reputation. For instance,
Humakt is friendly to Chalana Arroy because of Arroin. Clearly, a
Humakti who had participated in the Lead Cross heroquest could NOT
get any spells from a CA priestess. But most Humakti could. If we
include "friendly" cults in the list of who can get what, this gives
our hypothetical Orlanthi access to the cult spells of
Yelmalio/Elmal, Argan Argar, etc. and he can thus receive just about
every spirit spell imaginable.
Curtis Shenton:
>Also can an Illuminated Humakti be resurected?
Yes. Actually, in my own and Greg's campaigns even a regular
Humakti can be resurrected, but once he's back he attempts to kill
the person(s) who resurrected him, and then kills himself.
Stephen Stair:
>Could you illuminate me as to the source of these names?
Okay: Cam's Well -- Cam Stafford, Greg's wife at the time.
The Biggle Stone -- Clint Bigglestone, friend and RPGer
Waha the Butcher -- a high school acquaintance of Greg, who
is unaware of his high honor. His war cry was "Waaaahaaaa!" and his
dad was a butcher, a fact of which he often boasted.
The Tada Shi (people of the Golden Age) -- Tadashi Ehara,
Chaosium's one-time business manager
Yan Starcere (Humakti hero cult) -- Ian Starcher, who argued
that Humakt should have an anti-resurrection spell. Yan Starcere
provides same.
Swenstown -- Anders Swenson, well known bon vivant and RPGer
in the Bay area.
Makla Mann -- Mac, a famed gamer and figure painter from the
Los Angeles area.
And so forth. An unsung friend of Greg's is directly
responsible for the Ducks! Here's how it happened. Greg needed a name
for one of the towns on the White Bear Red Moon map, and asked this
pal to name it. He instantly responded, "Duckburg". Greg thought that
was a little too unGloranthan, and suggested "Duck Point" instead.
His friend said, "Well, okay. But it's gotta have ducks in it!" And
the rest is history.
Aden Steinke wonders:
>A question regarding the cult of the Seven Mothers, is there a
>current complete write up of the component sub cults available
>anywhere?
The CoP description of the Seven Mothers (which I'm foolish
assuming you have access to) is pretty complete. The individual
sub-cuts CAN be worshiped separately, but they are different cults --
in essence, the Seven Mothers is an artificial cult, made for
missionary and defensive purposes. Hence the Mothers themselves are
only associates, really.
If your Etyries initiate wants to join the Seven Mothers,
it's simple enough. But, if he wants to join Yanafal Tarnils, Irrippi
Ontor, etc., personally, this is a different matter.
Argrath:
>Being militia is proper for the Farmer class, so they're hardly
>untrained, or breaking caste prohibitions.
Yes, but I would expect them to be unable to use certain
weapons, certain types of armor (like, say, metal), or ride horses
(though chariots, as a cart-like device, might be legal). In
addition, their magic abilities are minimal -- they don't learn any
Intensity, frex.
Mikko Halttunen:
>In Dorastor, we saw that Ralzakark wasn't quite the big chaotic
>broo-king we had expected. So, if he's not that, what is he?
He's the big illuminated broo-king we _should_ have expected.
While he's not the source of Everything Bad in Dorastor, he is still
probably the single strongest force there, and will doubtless be one
of the Heroes of the Hero Wars.
Right now he's got a band of Humakti broo and Chalana Arroy
broo. He also has a bunch of other broo working for him. He's smart
enough to be polite to merchants, since he gets a magic item from
each one of them as they pass through.