From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 30 Jun 1994, part 4
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Joerg uses baiting and misleading subject lines.
Message-ID: <9406292243.AA04060@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 29 Jun 94 22:43:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4926
Joerg:
> >> Since there is no nobility but through
> >> meritocratic ascension, one can assume these are the ruler class of
> >> the Hrestoli system.
> > What, and Archbishops aren't?
> Just so. Archbishops aren't decision-makers (aka "Talars" in Brithini).
I'll think you'll find they are, by the standard sources, such as the G:G box,
since we're beating each other over the head with them.
> > The Hrestoli don't _have_ Orlanthi subjects, even in Junora, so far as
> > I'm aware
> The Hrestoli in Old Loskalm don't have any. These make up probably one half
> of all Hrestoli in Glorantha.
The other half being whom? I think most other alleged Hrestoli aren't
part of the Loskalmi Nouveau Idealism, so all bets off for them. As for
ex-pat Loskalmi, I dunno. Where are they, for one thing?
> > I'm taken with Nick's suggestion that all
> > the frothing at the mouth in G:G about the Jonatings is Loskalmi
> > propaganda...
> I don't think so. A sound measure of oppression belongs to the type of
> societies we face on Glorantha [...]
I didn't say it was entirely _untrue_ propaganda, but it makes sense that the
Loskalmi would be the ones getting all hot-under-the-collar about it, and
interpreting events there to suit them. Crusade, anyone? (After we squish
the KoW, natch.)
> >> Prince is a little defined title, mainly denoting a class membership if
> >> used in a late medieval feudal sense: male people belonging to the
> >> families of the higher nobility rulers, be they kings, dukes or princes
> >> themselves.
> > Rulers, not in the sense of "ruling nobility", but of _royalty_.
> Royalty as in Dukes...
Some (Grand) Dukes are rulers of (itsy-bitsy) countries. Some members of
royal families have "Duke" (as well as or instead of "Prince") as a courtesy
title (like Duke of Edinburgh), or by granting of lands on a one-off basis
from the crown (like Duke of Lancaster, or York). This does not mean that
"Dukes belong to the class Prince", or any such thing, since dukes need not
be royal the above sense (frex the Duke of Norfolk, an "ordinary" hereditary
title, and not a prince of any sort).
> There is no royalty in the sense of inheritance in Loskalm (although
> there is among the non-Loskalmi Hrestoli).
There is? Who, the Jonatings? I'm not convinced they are "Hrestoli" in
any sense other than not being Rokari.
> > So all Hrestoli Talars are "Princes?" Even the ones who're Kings or
> > Archbishop? I doubt it.
> Still "prince" seems a better title in English than "ruler"...
What's wrong with "Talar"? Or making one up?
> > Nope, they say Yelm rises at those (or thereabouts) dates, yup, but before
> > that (the first, that is), there _are_ no dates. It's The Moment. Timeless
> > reigns. Afterwards, it isn't, and doesn't. Does that sound like the start
> > of time to you? Let me rephrase that: doesn't that sound like the start
> > of time to everyone else?
> Yes, especially the moment at 0 YT. In Godtime.
Eh, yeah, that's the "year" I'm talking about. Didn't I just say that?
> I think that Yelm introduced a certain scheme of temporal order in his
> realm, if he didn't inherit it already from the Celestial Court.
And he didn't, according to Dara Happan beliefs. Doesn't it worry you
that this is entirely at odds with Theyalan beliefs on the matter, in
using this as "evidence" of anything? Doesn't the GRAY history of that
period look, in fact, like something of a flimsy tissue of guesswork and
fabrication?
> I remember you opposing any causality, let alone timshness, of Godtime.
> Did you see the light?
When did I "oppose" anything? I seem to recall discussing the different
_beliefs_ of people in Glorantha, instead of shoe-horning them all into a
common "history", which not even the Godlearners bothered doing.
If I'm opposing something, it's saying that any particular myth must be
"fixed" if it disagrees with the "true" causality. (Eg, the Doraddi on
the plummeting sun.) Hell, not even _Sandy_ does that... ;-)
Martin Crim:
> Alex on causality:
> Hrm, I wasn't sufficiently obscure. Hint: Look for the paradox.
Eh? I could maybe be bothered looking, if it were remotely clear what was
being referenced.
> The point of "Lies with Truth" is thinking about who the various
> Praxian tribes worship as the sun dome and how they do it.
Oh, _that_ The Point. No, I didn't Miss that one. Perhaps we should add
an "X-The-Point" field to the digested article header fields if that's
what we've to address in followups.
Alex.
---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Teaching spells incestuously and liberally
Message-ID: <199406292256.AA24909@radiomail.net>
Date: 29 Jun 94 22:56:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4927
Phill Juffs asks
>How common are shamans in citys, and if (as I suspect) there aren't very
>many of them, where do city folk get the Spirit Magic spells that are not
>provided
>by there cult?
Not very, and they don't.
On the other hand, their cult does provide them with more than it appears.
As I play it, you can learn spirit magic from any associated cult. This
still leaves spells you can't learn. Frex, Orlanth worshippers can't learn
Multimissile. (Kind of a shame, them having slings and all.)
>Will any cult teach its spells to lay members or strangers for a fee?
Depends on the cult. Remember, it takes the priest one whole day to teach a
spell (the time recovering Spellteaching). They have many other
responsibilities. I think if they don't, it's mostly for practical reasons,
like not having available Spellteaching renewal time, after performing
duties for initiates.
>Maybe wizards could summon Spell Spirits in some cultures,
We don't play they can. Spirit magic is alien and disgusting to sorcerers.
Harald Smith says
>the peasants of the 13th cen Pyrenees were not averse to incestuous
>relationships
Two things I remember from an anthro class: 1. The incest taboo is
universal. They wouldn't need to taboo it if people didn't want to do it.
2. Most people don't _really_ want to marry their sister. In China, poor
girls are sometimes married off at a real young age (under 6?). They go to
their "husbands" family and are raised with him. Since the two have been
raised as brother and sister, it's hard for them to think of themselves as
husband and wives when they get old enough, and they often seek sexual
partners outside of marriage.
Joerg said
>the Lunar Empeire, the allegedly
>most liberal society on the lozenge with GeStaPo/Stasi-like controlling
>organs.
Have we seen this from Greg, or in the interpretation of others?
---------------------
From: garydj@ditard.dit.gov.au
Subject: Magical Ecology
Message-ID: <9405297729.AA772938093@ditard.dit.gov.au>
Date: 29 Jun 94 16:01:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4928
Sandy (Tuesday 28 June) made some good points about the effects of the
RQ rules on the magic ecology of Glorantha. While he was focusing on
resurrection, the same or similar points can be made about virtually
any rune spell including those I see as fundamental to theistic
culture (Bless Crops, Cloud Call etc).
I have never the liked the idea of priests and priestesses spending x
days in the temple to regain their rune magic. It means they either
have no time to minister to their flock or they hardly use their rune
spells. I don't find either alternative satisfactory. I see the role
of priestesses as bringing the benefits of their deities to the world.
They should be out and about casting their spells for all who need and
deserve them.
Barron Chugg has posted some great ideas on following runepathes to
gain spells. In terms of RQ mechanics, I see these runepathes being
laid out in worship ceremonies. The number of worshippers present
would affect the number of runepathes available in a given ceremony.
The particular paths would vary depending on the needs and desires of
the worshippers and the priestesses leading the ceremony.
The important point, in terms of magical ecology, is that the only
limit on how often ceremonies are held is the willingness of
worshippers to attend. Where there are many worshippers, ceremonies
may be held weekly or even daily (nightly?). Thus, an Ernalda
priestess can easily recover her Bless Crops spell at plowing time.
However, consistent with Sandy's (and others') arguments, Resurrect is
not readily available because Chalana Arroy worshippers while
widespread, are a tiny minority in most cultures. (All? Is there
anywhere Chalana Arroy is worshipped as the principal deity? I seem
to have a vague recollection of a great temple to Chalana Arroy
somewhere in the Holy Country.)
Comments/Flames anyone?
Gary James
---------------------
From: Urox@aol.com
Subject: No Opps. for Women Characters in Loskalm, Prax etc
Message-ID: <9406292306.tn191870@aol.com>
Date: 30 Jun 94 03:06:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4929
I've been following the debate on the lack of opportunities for women in the
West, Prax etc and what to do to provide women characters with more
interesting roles.
It seems to me that many of you are falling into the PC (as in Pol. Correct)
trap of assuming that "traditional" women's roles are "bad" qua bad (as
oppossed to qua qua "qua").
I recently read a rather controversial book called "Brain Sex" (can't
remember the author) by a geneticist which summarizes recent research on the
biological hard-wiring of men's and women's brains. The gist of the book is
that there are fundamental physiological and hormonal differences which
predispose men and women to certain tasks. It provides very strong evidence
which disproves the ideas which many social scientists would like to believe
that gender roles are societally imposed constructs which keep women as
second class citizens.
Rather, it suggests, women truly are predisposed in their thinking toward
"sterotypical" roles such as child caring, education, nursing, nurturing etc.
And men have great advantages in terms of aggresiveness, competition,
leadership, math etc.
The crucial point of the book is that it is the _value_ which society places
on these roles and the penalties it imposes on those who step outside the
roles. For example, accept for the moment that women have a predispostion to
be better at the nursing aspect of health care and men for administrative/
research roles. Society decides that one groups gets paid $40K and the other
$150K. In the world as a whole women do approx 75% of the work and earn 5%
of the income (don't ask me where I got that).
The point? Most women in Glorantha are probably more fullfilled by
traditional _roles_, although like modern women they probably want equal pay
i.e respect for equal work. So doesn't this provide plenty of opportunity for
women characters? While the testosterone hampered men in Loskalm etc. are
busy bashing each other, strutting about self- importantly and mucking things
up, women could be moving in their own way to work for issues they feel are
important and even establishing new cults/sects for themselves.
Any comments?
Disclaimer: Yes, I'm male so of course I don't know of that which I speak,
but a woman wrote "Brain Sex" so please don't flame me on that unless you've
read the book. As far as my own struggle with Glorantha gender roles,
sometime I'll write up the saga of my Esrolian Babeester Gorii who had to
play Voria on a HeroQuest and lost her "fighting edge" so she had to leave
the cult. Now everyone wants me to join Vinga, but I want to be a Grey Sage!
Mark Foster. Urox@aol.com
---------------------
From: guy.hoyle@chrysalis.org
Subject: REPLIES
Message-ID: <9406292312.0WLPX04@chrysalis.org>
Date: 29 Jun 94 21:12:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4930
To Timbee@timbee.rnd.symix.com:
Loved the song about my new former herd-man character! (whose name is Fido
Two-Big-Clubs). (Yes, Sandy, I know they're maces, but Two-Big-Maces in't as
evocative).
And to whomever gave Sandy the idea to put an Allosaurus broo into his current
campaign: I curse you, I curse you, I curse you. May the curse of Vlgrim
Bull-Answers-Thrice be upon your heads; on the other hand, with his 3 POW, you
shouldn't worry too much. :)
Sandy: Loved the Mister Man piece! The footnotes in the daily version helped
clarify the context, too.
kSee you all next time.
GUY HOYLE (not Guy Robinson)
formerly Valgrim Bull-Answers-Twice (who appreciates the sympathy, BTW)
aka Fido Two-Big-Clubs
"Human Women AIN'T Like Herd Women!"
---------------------
From: lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au (Graeme Lindsell)
Subject: In the dark on Illumination...
Message-ID: <9406300608.AA00823@Sun.COM>
Date: 30 Jun 94 21:05:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4931
In response to Paul's toe surgery, a few thoughts on Illumination.
The central teaching of Illumination, we're told, is that chaos is not
necessarily evil. This is such a shocking concept to many central
Genertelans that if unprepared they go mad, and they adopt an often
solipsistic view of reality.
I'm not sure that this would be such a shock to the members of other
cultures. The Westerner, for example, does not generally distinguish
between chaos monsters and inhuman but non-chaotic monsters such as
trolls or dragonewts, calling them all "krjalki". The idea that they
may not be evil would be considered more the sign of an open mind, as
some of them (trolls for example) seem to have accepted a bit of teaching
of the Prophet via Arkat.
To the Malkionist, the Devil is the great enemy, rather than chaos
in general. If a Westerner were to interpret the message of Illumination
as "the Devil isn't Evil" she/he would be making a mistake, as the
Devil is by definition the moral evil of the world. This may cause some
confusion for the Westerner (ie insanity), but could be shown to be wrong.
The Kralorelan on the other hand is associated with the Dragons, who
were neutral in the battle with chaos. They would see chaos as a threat,
but then so are most foreigners. Chaos is only somewhat more repellent:
Illumination allows the Kralorelan to overcome his or her repugnance
with aspects of the world, and adopt a more philosophical attitude
to all of existance.
Even the Dara Happan may find the message less shocking: the myths in
GRoY show a people more concerned with rebellion than with chaos, and
I'm certain that Orlantius is seen as the most evil figure, rather than
the Devils and other monsters he helped release.
To the Doraddi chaos is another evil force from the North, similar to
the Six Legged Empire. (Do the Doraddi see North as the evil direction?).
They could probably accept that these people are not all evil, and would
even say that only those who attacked Pameltela have shown themselves
to be so.
To me it seems as though Illumination would be of most concern to the
Orlanthi and other cultures of Central Genertela concerned with the war
on chaos. Since these are the main cultures we've been shown so far it's
not surprising that Illumination is considered such an evil plague to
them, as it attempts to refute a central tenet of their faiths.
Just to summarise: I don't think Illumination should be considered a
fact of such huge importance to thoer cultures. To many others it's
message is largely irrelevant or cann't be expressed in ways they would
understand. It's interesting that the game mechanic effects of Illumination
are mainly of interest to the rune theists, rather than to wizards
or mystics, or even the Doraddi.
--
Graeme Lindsell a.k.a lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au
Research School of Chemistry, Australian National University, Canberra.
"I was 17 miles from Greybridge before I was caught by the school leopard"
Ripping Yarns - Tomkinson's Schooldays.
---------------------
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Spiders
Message-ID: <199406300646.OAA26133@wambenger.cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 30 Jun 94 06:48:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4932
> >All those spiders at SpiderWood (sp?), do they have any religion?
> They probably worship Aranea, if anything. If they have no
> religion (possible), then they'll still know about Aranea and be
> friendlier to a member of that cult. Which is not to say they won't
> kill and eat him if they have a good chance to do so.
>
>
> >If the spiders at Doreastor worship aranea, could a troll use their
> >temple, or would it take a lot of spider diplomacy to achieve >it.
> Whichever's more fun for your campaign. If I were running it,
> I'd make the troll do all sorts of things to get the spiders to
> approve of him.
>
It says in Dorastor that the spiders worship Great Ancient Mother,
a deity which a God-Learner would probably instantly recognise as
Aranea (they have the same spells for starters). Wether the trolls
or the spiders accept that they are the same is another question.
I would think it is not too unreasonable to assume that Great
Ancient Mother and Aranea are different names for the same deity.
Of course, their could be side effects of switching worship.
More importantly, communicating with the spiders is
probably a more difficult problem.
Cheers
Dave
---------------------