Bell Digest v940705p1

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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 05 Jul 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


---------------------

From: HVH@LETT.KUN.NL
Subject: The GoLEM, a postscript
Message-ID: 
Date: 4 Jul 94 13:11:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5006

Hi guys, Hans van Halteren here. (No, not Hasueros, he disappeared, remember?)

I thought it might be useful to assure all of you I am still able to
distinguish between Glorantha and the Real World. So here goes...
The only Real World items in the recent GoLEM posts were:

- We have been told The Secret is expressible with three words. The 
  experiment wouldn't work since Greg probably wouldn't want to look at
  all three word combinations.

- We did have a fire here. Certainly set by someone. Probably by either
  pranksters or disgruntled ex-employees. No, I don't really suspect Sandy,
  even though he did threaten the GoLEM. As a result of the fire, nobody
  was let into the building for a week. We do still have a building, though.
  By the way, I now have to renew my Face Backlog spell. You guys sure
  produce a lot in a week.

- Sandy has worked (does work?) on DOOM!. But nobody on this list will want
  to blame him for that. All negative remarks about Sandy were made by good
  old no longer present Hasueros.


Now to some other loose ends.

Originally, there were three possible continuations of the GoLEM message:

 1) Hasueros was what he said to be and all of you would have received
    a list of word combinations. Not just the volunteers. Yes, there were
    actual volunteers.

 2) Hasueros was a riddler and the word combinations were seeded with some
    riddles to get all volunteers Illuminated.

 3) Hasueros was actually Zero, Glorantha's greatest detective of Runequest
    Companion fame (thanks again, Hal), who had sent the message as part
    of a cunning plan to root out GL sympathizers for the Arkati thought
    police.

Obviously, the fire here was too interesting a plot development to let go.

Eric Rowe proposes to continue the experiment in a somewhat more sensible
manner. DON'T DO IT! DON'T JEOPARDIZE THE SODA ARCHIVES!

Anyway, I'm not sure the secret is useful anymore. If I understand Sandy's
piece on the God Learners' demise correctly, the secret doesn't work any
longer after the God Plane shifted. (Is that correct, Sandy? Would anyone
with the secret be able to use it in 16xx?) This, by the way, might also 
explain the way the Gift Carriers find their victims: they don't! The God
Learners who knew the secret, again according to Sandy some kind of 
Heroquesting trick, just tried to use it the next time they quested and
it backfired on them, with spectacular and lethal effects.

OK, enough contribution to your backlog for now.

Happy Questing,
Hans van Halteren

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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex)
Subject: Re: the Great Babeestor Gor Robbery
Message-ID: <9407041044.AA17532@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Jul 94 10:44:36 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5007


The Storm Bull Himself writes:
>  sometime I'll write up the saga of my Esrolian Babeester Gorii who had to
> play Voria on a HeroQuest

Now that's what I call an under-staffed earth temple.

David Cake succumbs to the "summarising" fad:
> [me explaining that in theory even restrictive cults like BG can be scammed
> by performing rituals, sacrificing POW, when not truly dedicated]

No, you saying they could ignore "cult restrictions" without effect.

> >I broadly agree, but I think we need to examine the concept of "cult
> >restriction" more closely.  There are about three general sorts of such,
> >I think, (to falsely trichotomise):

> >Absolute geas-level prohibitions:  a Humakti being resurrected, a Healer
> >killing someone, not turning up at a HHD ceremony.  Major defined
> >consequences, whatever the particular manner of your local worship.

> Restrictions that the spirits of reprisal and the god can normally 'smell'
> straight away, and are attracted or repelled by respectively. I don't put
> missing the HHD in this category necessarily (but failing to observe it at
> all without a good reason might count).

Not necessarily something a spirit of reprisal will punish, but it's
something the god can hardly fail to be "aware" of, since if a god is
present anywhere in the material plane, it's at his own HHD ceremony.
(Say rather, perhaps, that the worshippers are present in the godplane.)

>         Probably making yourself into a traditional enemy of the cult
> (Humakti assassins, Babeestor Gor despoilers of the Earth) may count in
> this category, but it may not.

Not the former, at least.  "Assassin" is such a vague concept, and subject
to cultural, personal, and circumstantial interpretation, that it's not
likely to be the kind of thing with direct GP consequences.

> >Culturally influencable restrictions and you-really-shoulds: Humakt codes of
> >honour and dueling conventions, CA healing protection, attendance at regular
> >worship, display of appropriate cultic virtues.  Various secondary
> >consequences, such as decreased likelihood of DI, or regaining rune magic.

>         I general say that these things are mostly problems with the cult,
> and are not tied to cult magic as strongly as the first category. They are
> restrictions, but most of the bad consequences can be avoided if the cult
> never finds out (they can usually cast divination to find out, though).

Clearly there will be _additional_ problems if the cult found out, but the
ones I suggested are you-and-your-god thingies.  The reason I think such
things matter is that for a particular mode of worship, certain ideals of
behaviour are emphasised, and will tend to be reflected in the form of the
rituals and heropaths they favour.

For example: (re)gaining rune magic is a minor heroquest; during HQs, one
has to pass not only magical and martial tests, but also "moral" ones.
(Trait or passion rolls, in the de facto Chaosium proto-HQ rules.)  This
will tend to make such things more difficult for those who don't live up
to cult ideals, even if they hide their "failings" from the cult itself.
Indeed, I don't think even Illumination helps you here, as a rule.

Mind you, perhaps one of the effects of (some kinds of) Illumination is
letting you have Valorous and Cowardly (et al.) _both_ at 20...  Or both
at 1, for you Left Hand Path fiends.

This is _not_ to be taken as suggesting that a _different_, or somewhat
distinct cult couldn't worship the "same" god without such fripperies.
Frinst, another cult may discover ways of circumventing certain "tests",
or resolving them in a way more to their own liking...

> Only in cults with unusually hyper spirits of retribution (like Orlanth) do
> the spirits necessarily detect such things (my conception of the Orlanthi
> is that the impests spend their days spying on everybody, tallying up wrong
> doing). 

This is a worryingly totalitarian-sounding picture.  I agree that Orlanth
seems unusual in having SoR for very minor things, but it would be very
odd if they're the conspicuous exception in having an effective Thought
Police of them.

> >Local cult fripperies: Cult garb, paying the tithe, calling the high priest
> >Your Immense Booga-Woogawship twice per sentance.  No inherent consequences,
> >though said cult will get on your case about it, and may even declare you
> >inactive, sic a spirit of reprisal on you, or even excommunicate you.

> Definately requires the intervention of the cult, without the priests
> hassling you, the deity is completely uncaring. 

"Uncaring" is to anthropomorphise rather more than I would, but that's what I
was suggesting, in effect.  (Of cults, the cults anthropomorphise with gusto,
but wouldn't admit the god doesn't care about such things.)

> >> Theoretically an oath breaker or despoiler of the earth could even do this.

> >I'm not exactly sure what you mean by these categories: I'm sure that an
> >initiate of Babs who defiles an earth temple, or holy site is heading
> >swiftly for the Ex-initiate category at a rate of knots.

> But not an illuminated initiate that keeps her evil deeds strictly secret.
> Possibly illumination might not be necessary always (particularly if she
> was unaware she had done it). But if the rest of the cult find out, better
> start running (and never stop).

I think the act of defiling the temple would itself make you inactive, and/or
get a temple spirit of reprisal on your tail (if you're not illuminated), so
this would be a big clue.  A temple of one's own god, certainly, and in cases
like Babs, I'd tend to think any Earth temple, since this is acting directly
against the purpose of the cult.

But most bets off for Illuminates, though I suspect that they have to be
somewhat ingenious in getting around the effects of doing Bad Things.  (Such
as Duke Yanafal, and his curved swords.)

Alex.

---------------------

From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex)
Subject: Curses, curses. termcap entries, even.
Message-ID: <9407041046.AA17568@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Jul 94 10:46:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5008


Joerg:
> No curse proposal, but a mechanic proposal: As long as a powerful 
> religious curse is held in effect, it cannot be regained.

This mechanic would be better suited to long-lived temporal spell, than
ones intended to be permanent (as curses generally are).  One could simply
make them be one-use, or require POW when cast.

> Storm Bull's curse might be a similar Demoralize in the face of chaos.

Definitely not: this would be cutting off his magically-ecological nose to
spite his insufficiently devout face.  I agree broadly with the "beneficial
deities only" rule of thumb: in these cases, it makes sense for the curse
to be a loss of the benefit.  (One could argue protection from, or fortitude
against, chaos was SB's "benefit", I suppose.)

Sandy:
> 	Another, even likelier, interpretation is that the beneficial  
> deities rely on other, specialized "vengeance" deities to protect  
> them. Thus, we have Gorgorma, Maran Gor, Babeester Gor -- all of whom  
> make sense only if there is a larger, benign cult for them to draw  
> their strength from and to protect.

BG, yeah, but less so MG or Gorgy.  Much MG worship may be propiatory,
for one thing.  Gorgorma's vengance function doesn't necessarily require
a malign earth cult to protect, that's just where the candidates "happen"
to come from.

> Various  
> folks compete for the "honor" of being the Emperor, and once they  
> rise to the status, the Emperor Goes On. However, the Emperor's soul  
> (or something) is apparently in control of the new guy, whose spirit  
> either goes to Glamour, or sticks around to advise the Emperor (not  
> clear which). 

This sound familiar to anyone?  Say, MoLaD playtesters?  Clear evidence for
the Cyclic Nature of Greg, I think.

> Pol Joni: I think these are primarily Orlanth & co. There is no doubt  
> some Eiritha, but these guys are certainly no longer Waha worshipers.  
> Probably retain plenty of shamanism. 

Given the Waha is a largely shamanistic religion, I see no reason why they'd
all have to apostasise or convert.  Obviously Waha doesn't have the
"chief" or "covanant" roles in this tribe, but that needn't make him an
undeity.  Butchery is still an obvious niche, for example.

> >> Compare the other Praxian outlaw groups: Amazons (Yelorna),  
> >>Gagarthi, and Cannibal Cult.
> >But they're not an outlaw group,\
> 	But they are, really.

KoS, p132: "[...] and they became, in every way, one of the many bickering
tribes of the plains".

> 	On the other hand, probably no man is an "outlaw" in the  
> Orlanthi sense to the Praxians. In the Wastes, where times are tough,  
> who can tell the difference between a band of raiding Sable Riders  
> and a band of marauding Gagarthi? The effects are the same. 

This is fair point, given the general lack of "law" to be "out" of in
Prax.  But the Pol Joni are certainly a different case from the Gagarthi,
if only for their de facto possession of the Marches.  Also, not everyone
in the PJs will actually have been cast out of a "convential" tribe; many
will be Nth generation outlaws, or Orlanthi.  (This may be true to a lesser
degree of the Gagarthi, p'haps, though I doubt they're big on namby-pamby
stuff little raising little Gagartllets.)

> ("Just one step above the Morocanth!" as the saying goes). 

Given that the Morocanth certainly aren't outlaws, the defence rests.

> > Is one of the very high level Heroquests to go and fight Wakboth
> >(alone, yet along with everyone else) in I Fought We Won? 
> 
> 	This is more probably the _end_ of a whole lot of other  
> heroquests. The grand finale of the Hill of Gold Yelmalio/Elmal  
> heroquest, for instance, closes with him fighting off hordes of chaos  
> before he can greet the Dawn. I think this is probably the case with  
> many if not most Greater Darkness quests. 

Or at least the "survival"-themed ones, I suppose.  I concur with Sandy's
implicit disagreement with 's suggestion that this is
an "advanced" quest: I think that as a rule, any quest may be done in a
"shallow" way, and so on progressively.  Though on the other hand, I there
is a limit to how "deeply" you can do some quest: Garreth Sharpsword need
hardly apply to carry out "advanced" version of Snorri whatsisname's quest.

Alex.

---------------------

From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex)
Subject: Middle-eastern japery.
Message-ID: <9407041050.AA17626@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Jul 94 10:50:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5009


Harald Smith:
> I might suggest that the Carmanian "empire" is no more squished under 
> the Lunars then the Persian "empire" was squished under the "minor" 
> conquest of Alexander (which only left a Seleucid Greek dynasty for 
> around two hundred years).

This is a pretty fair analogy, for the most part.  But I still think that
when people merrily ascribe Persian-analogue-type-things to Carmania, they
at least stop and ask themselves whether this is supposed to be something,
on the first paw, they brought with them from the West, on the second,
something they dreamed up as Carmania qua (qua "qua") Carmania, thirdly,
during the period they were camped out in Dara Happa, or on the fourth,
since they've been Lunarised.

> Perhaps the liberation of Charg will reveal 
> the true new "Parthian" dynasty waiting to return.

Anyone using _that_ as an excuse to import Parthianisms into Peloria can
expect a visitation from the spirit of the Glesgae Kiss. ;-)

Heroic MOB: 
> Now coming over on Gulf Air, arriving in Old Blighty on the 12th.

Good luck dodging the F-14s.

> Cullen Grace asks:
> >Here's a fun question:  What was the name of the Red Goddess in life, before
> >her apotheosis?  

> That would be young Miss Teelo Norri, I would guess.

This seems to be Top Answer, as they say on Family Fortune/Feud.  But did
she go by this name between her "birth" in 1220 and her "true" apotheosis
in 1247?  This somewhat depends on how one views the recreation ritual itself:
did it actually displace TN's spirit from her body, or did it merely bring
about a change in her mystical state which allowed her to become the RG in
due course?

Alex.

---------------------

From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
Subject: RE: Lotsa Stuff...
Message-ID: <940703064608606@thuemmel.com>
Date: 3 Jul 94 07:45:16 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5010

Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 4880

N> And so the Kralori strive to eliminate the self? Different, less
N> limited kinds of magic would become possible for the one who Is Not.
N> You have no "handles" any more: the world cannot affect you, because
N> you are not part of it. Or, perhaps, because you *are* it. (Not a
N> part: the whole). (The whole which is the hole: as all is nothing).

Hmm...  that is an interesting idea.  But if you've eliminated the self
and cut off all desires ("Clinging to nothing and also rejecting
nothing"), what do you need magic for?  See the poem at the end of this
message for the rest of this quote.

N> Does this work for you? Or does it need more Taoism? You might be

Well, personally... the Kralorelean myths seem to me more like chinese
folk religions, with the addition of draconic insights.  How about
instead of classic Taoism, Neo-Taoism with all the weirdness and magic
that entails (plus a triple dose of draconic references), with a bit of
pseudo-Buddhism thrown in?
_______________________________
Nils Weinander in X-RQ-ID: 4886
N> calligraphy or dance. Imagine the surprise of characters from central
N> or western Genertela when they see a yellow-skinned man dancing up a
N> fire, or healing a wound by reading a poem.

An amusing image...  The image of dancing up a fire would surely come as
no surprise to anyone acquainted with shamanism though.  I like the idea
of the healing by poetry.  It feels fairly chinese to me, with a bit of
a twist it would do nicely.  In China there were classic books of
poetry, and knowing an appropriate verse from one of the classics (or
being able to create one) was regarded as the mark of learning (I seem
to recall).  This could be easily made into magical poems that draw on
the power of the universe (with a skill roll for discernment?),  and it
could be impolite to use a poem twice in the same day/week/year.

N> perfected your 'Spiritual enlightenment' and then die it is the final
N> death whereafter your spirit becomes one with the universe.

Might I suggest a similarity between the Pure land sect's Sukhavati and
Vithula?  Thus you would have something similar to the actual situation
in the Real World; With the vast majority hoping to get enough good
karman to get into the pure land, where they will pass from the cycle
when the emperor comes.  A few monks and crazy holy (wo?)men will see
the doctrines of the dragons more truly and realize that all of
existence is unified, and that there are no enduring essences anywhere
(I'm not really sure if including this level of similarity to actual
Buddhism works in Glorantha, where essences are quite obviously all over
the place).
_____________________________
Colin Watson in X-RQ-ID: 4896
>Barron Chugg:
>B> "is the god independent of the paths or not".
C>
C> There was a time when the gods walked their paths for the First Time.
C> At that time the gods could be thought of as "independent" of their
C> paths. But today the gods *are* the paths. This is what people
C> worship; and also how they worship. This is the timeless nature of
C> the gods: they *are* everything they ever *did*.

I would tend to say that the paths are a metaphor, which is only true up
to a point.  The god is one with the path, but the paths are also one
with the god, and are therefore in some sense conscious.

C> My theory is that anyone who does anything New leaves a small etching
C> on the godplane. If you do something so great that other people want

Does this include actions taken off the godplane?

C> For a hero to ascend to Godhood he must perform actions so immense
C> that others will want to follow in his footsteps. By following in his

I would say it is a little more complex than that, and involves the hero
actively trying to create a set of paths on the Rune/Hero/God-plane.

C> I was assuming "frame of mind" was part of the ritual. A certain
C> amount of mental discipline may be required, but I don't think that
C> the participants have to hold any particular beliefs (other than,
C> perhaps, the belief that the magic will work).  The way I see it,
C> Illuminates are only "special" in that they *realize* they don't have
C> to believe anything to get magic from the gods.

I quite agree.  I wonder if there aren't rituals (initiations come to
mind) in which the aspirant doesn't know what is expected of him, and if
he reacts in some way that the god would not...
he gets kicked out/killed/whatever?
_______________________________
Martin/Argrath in X-RQ-ID: 4904
M> Clearly.  And an Orlanthi plowing his field, and an Ernaldan
M> baking bread.  If you are tuned in, everyday actions are
M> ritualized in a life-affirming way.

I quite agree.  However extraordinary actions (which raise the emotional
intensity) would naturally tend to be more effective as 'worship'.  They
also get more mention simply for being extraordinary.  The everyday
actions performed in emulation of the god are equally important, just
not dramatic enough for discussion.

M>      "These are my magical acts:
M>      Hewing wood and drawing water."
M>                --Some Taoist Sage

I'd hardly call P'ang Yun a Taoist Sage.  Layman P'ang (as he's
generally known) was a buddhist famed for his having gained
enlightenment and getting transmission in the Ch'an tradition while
still remaining a layman.

The complete poem reads (in (IMO) a less poetic translation):

There is nothing special about my daily affairs,
I am simply in spontaneous harmony with them.
Clinging to nothing and also rejecting nothing,
I encounter no resistance and am always free.
What do I care for the pomp of purple robes-
The pure summit was never sullied by so much as a fleck of dust.
The wonderous action of magical forces
I find in cutting wood and carrying water.

                                        -Layman P'ang (c.740-808)

Cullen