From gadbois@mcc.com Sat Jul 29 15:59:41 1995 Received: from cash.wharton.upenn.edu (CASH.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU [130.91.160.43]) by hops.wharton.upenn.edu (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA02241 for; Sat, 29 Jul 1995 15:59:41 -0400 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by cash.wharton.upenn.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id PAA27801 for loren@hops.wharton.upenn.edu; Sat, 29 Jul 1995 15:59:40 -0400 Received: from turtle.mcc.com (turtle.mcc.com [128.62.1.215]) by cash.wharton.upenn.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA27785 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 1995 15:57:50 -0400 Received: from hippo.mcc.com (hippo.mcc.com [128.62.11.50]) by turtle.mcc.com (8.6.10/mcc.8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA10330 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 1995 14:57:27 -0500 Received: from zorak-zoran.mcc.com by hippo.mcc.com (5.65/isd-other_921116_15:19) id AA26841; Sat, 29 Jul 1995 14:57:18 -0500 Received: from Sun.COM (Sun.COM [192.9.9.1]) by news.cs.utexas.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA07494 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 1994 02:24:46 -0500 Received: from snail.Sun.COM (snail.Corp.Sun.COM) by Sun.COM (sun-barr.Sun.COM) id AB01368; Wed, 6 Jul 94 00:18:48 PDT Received: from Holland.Sun.COM (isunnl) by snail.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25026; Wed, 6 Jul 94 00:17:44 PDT Received: from glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM by Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1e) id AA05505; Wed, 6 Jul 94 09:17:37 +0200 Received: by glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29872; Wed, 6 Jul 94 09:16:10 +0200 Date: Wed, 6 Jul 94 09:16:10 +0200 Message-Id: <9407060716.AA29872@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM> X-PH: V4.2@cash.wharton.upenn.edu From: RuneQuest-Request@glorantha.holland.sun.com (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@glorantha.holland.sun.com (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@glorantha.holland.sun.com (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 06 Jul 1994, part 2 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@holland.sun.com Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk Resent-To: Loren Miller Resent-From: David Gadbois Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 14:57-0500 Resent-Message-Id: <19950729195708.3.GADBOIS@ZORAK-ZORAN.MCC.COM> X-UIDL: 807050821.014 Status: RO --------------------- From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172) Subject: another khalana story Message-ID: <01HECH52TNPYQZFA9A@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU> Date: 5 Jul 94 06:41:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5032 The Healing of Teliska by Harald Smith There came a day when Teliska the Dancer, spouse of mighty Arahar, was consumed by lethargy, a new illness. Her dancing diminished to nothing. She sat down, when before she had always danced and stayed upon her feet. Arahar upon his throne, consumed as he was with watching the events upon the earth, did not even notice that she had ceased her dances. Teliska had lost all interest in her life. As was the way of the gods, Teliska went to Khalana for a cure. Khalana asked her to describe her symptoms. "Ah, it is terrible," moaned Teliska. "Where once I danced, I now only wish to sit. Where once I moved with grace and passion, now I move with hard and clumsy steps, if at all. I feel nothing but the doom and despair that Arahar sits and watches for. Help me, Khalana, for I know not how to help myself!" Khalana thought long upon this for this illness, this lethargy, was new. Having thought upon possible cures, Khalana gave Teliska the Dew of Ninara, steeped as it was in the divine radiance of Yelem. Khalana grew hopeful for Teliska glowed, but Teliska shook her head slowly. "I feel the radiance of Yelem within me, but where before I would have gone to dance within that joyous glow, now I would just sit and wait for the glow to pass." Khalana thought more and went to her works of ancient lore. After long reading, she went to her kitchen and distilled the blood of Larnsta and mixed it with the Water that Always Rises. This concoction she gave Teliska, since it was sure to restore her graceful moves. Khalana grew hopeful for Teliska's body twitched with restlessness, but Teliska shook her head. "I feel strong movements within me, but before I would have leaped high in the air and twirled around, but now I know I could never reach such heights, so why should I try." Now Khalana was disturbed by this, but she is a stubborn goddess. She left Teliska and went to Arahar. She asked him if he knew why his wife did not want to dance. He shook his head and said, "I do not know. There are many things which are not as they were. I must guard against these, but I do not know how to aid my wife." As Khalana returned to her home from Arahar's fortress, she chanced upon Orlantio. As was ever his way with goddesses, he taunted Khalana. "Ho, lovely goddess. Would you care for a frolic today? You can see for yourself how your looks arouse me!" And he laughed when she blushed and turned away from the privy parts he showed. Khalana was ready to hurry past when she suddenly had an idea. "Ho, yourself, you lust braggart. Perhaps I would partake of your sweat and seed, and even your blood! But only if you indulge me first." Well, Orlantio was never one to pass up any opportunity, especially where his member was concerned. Seeing a chance with the chaste healer, he readily agreed to her condition. "Very well," said Khalana, "I only require that you listen to me play awhile." After stringing her ousa, Khalana played a gentle lullaby. Her play was so enchanting that Orlantio quickly fell asleep. As he slept, Khalana crept close and gathered up some of his sweat and some of his seed and the smallest drop of his blood. Khalana dashed then for her home while he slept on. Once home, Khalana distilled the sweat and seed and blood of Orlantio into a new concoction. She gave this to Teliska. But Khalana lost hope immediately when she saw Teliska's countenance darken like the storm cloud. Teliska glanced up and met Khalana's eye. "So my husband would sit around watching the world beneath his feet, would he?" she called out angrily. "And he knows not how to help me? Well, I'll show him a thing or two." Suddenly, Teliska was upon her feet, a whirling dancer once more. She pulled her cloaks from her body and twirled them round and round. Then she rose rapidly into the sky and sprang forth right in front of Arahar's eyes. Quickly wrapping a cloak about him, she grabbed his arms and pulled him off his seat. She danced and led him on. Never before had Teliska performed such a dance and Arahar was shocked at what he saw. But she kept dancing and slowly Arahar was drawn into the dance until all the heavens stopped to watch. Teliska laughed then and shouted with joy for she was cured of her lethargy. And back below, Khalana heard a thunderous knocking at her door. "Let me in wench!" called Orlantio. "You promised to partake of my sweat and seed and even my blood! I demand that you do so." Khalana peeped out at his raging face and said, "But I have, dear Orlantio. See, here is the proof." And she splashed him in the face with the concoction made from his own sweat and seed and blood. Orlantio howled in fury at being duped so, but she had kept her promise and he could not assail her. Khalana laughed then with joy for she had found a cure for lethargy. --------------------- From: jcw7@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (Joseph Christopher Wehman) Subject: Replies Re:Basmoli Message-ID: <199407051625.MAA07160@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> Date: 5 Jul 94 05:25:10 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5033 To Bryan Maloney: Isn't that amazing. Well i know about all that stuff. Hmm, it might be because I AM the person who plays a Basmoli shaman in your RQ4 play-test. In response to the other questions: When I wrote the stuff up I was interested in the Basmoli from a role-playing standpoint and not a normal-battle-operations standpoint. I made the cult up based on the social behavior of african plains lions and not primative man. I don't want to start the ubiquitous arguement of whether country x represents old earth y because they use shield z. I agree the weapons that I chose are limited in normal combat. I would suggest that it is the terrain in which they live that the Basmoli use to their advantage, the high plains grasses. They would do this by lureing their attackers into the high grass, setting traps(rock piles,pot holes) to maim the animals, and where their movement in slowed and they loose sight of the ground. Then by sneaking around in the grass, virtually unseen, to lay ambushes on parties. As far as the hit-and-tactics, a party of say ten Basmoli with mobility, multi-missle, and protection armed with javelins and spears would be able to kill a few people and then run to the nearest stretch of grass then set a trap. As for the number of Basmoli available to fight a large war party, since a law shaman resides over 4-5 prides of the same type, that would mean 32-60 Basmoli in a single area. As far as females goes, its a matriarchal society based on lions, what can I say? In ranged combat I think they would do fine. Also it is often the bands of banished young males that do most of the raiding. --------------------- From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly) Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 05 Jul 1994, part 2 Message-ID: <9407051701.AA00684@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu> Date: 5 Jul 94 17:01:12 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5034 Paul here. Sandy writes: I scoffingly disbelieve in the existence of "a few" medieval French female knights. Maybe over the entire period of the Middle Scoff away. I doubt that quoting medieval chronicles would change your opinion. In any case my claim is not that female knights existed in real life (unverifiable without a time machine or an extremely lucky archaelogical find) but that period historians record their existence (easily verifiable at any major library). I tend to base historical campaigns on period source material when possible, and get ideas for fantasy campaigns from period sources also. For "ancient" campaigns, I can believe in Amazons if Herodotus can. Sandy, do you scoff at the existence of female gladiators? If so I will give you an argument. Note that I am leaving out examples like Britomart, I am referring to serious historical sources. People apparently recording what they regarded as sober fact. - Paul --------------------- From: jiml@falcon.teleride.on.ca (Jim Lai) Subject: The end of the world as they knew it? Message-ID: Date: 5 Jul 94 09:08:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5035 |From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex) |Subject: Use Your Illusion III |X-RQ-ID: 5014 Alex muses on reality: |> >Can belief create reality in Glorantha? | |> Yes: Illusion. | |Leading to thorny questions such as: Is Illusion Reality?; and Is Illusion |Caused By Belief? Just ask a pseudodragon if it thinks it's real. Maybe the Illusion rune is really the Dream rune (or Reality rune). (And no, I'm not going to attempt to model the Sandman/Endless pantheon using runes.) Maybe Illusion is what the Trickster replaced Humakt's sword with. Maybe all the runes are merely Illusion. |From: NDROBINS@NDROBINS.FIN.GOV.BC.CA |Subject: GLs, Runes and the Monomyth |X-RQ-ID: 5019 | |Neil Robinson here: |The GLs attempted to |explain and control Glorantha through the MM and Runes - merging |Gods and cultures, and altering their powers by forcing them to act |through fixed Runic patterns. Now had the GLs been completely successful, |then the MM and the Runes would be the only way that Glorantha could |be viewed. Unlike Earth, where mathematics and physics only model our |world, Glorantha is completed malleable through belief, [...] If we assume that Glorantha is a dream, then their intervention may have disturbed the course of the dream too greatly, thus earning the emnity of those who would want the dream to continue. And so the dream changed... |It shows why the GLs were so dangerous, and so strongly resisted |by the Gods, and Glorantha itself. Heck, maybe that's what happened |to Earth. It was a Glorantha-like entity where the GLs won (and here |we are). My impression is that the GLs attempted to create a magical technology of sorts. Mostal no doubt was amused. Imagine creating a new deity with the runes Statis, Movement/Change, Power/Pamalt... the god of Carnot engines! |This all comes back to the basic question. Can we use runes to |detail Glorantha, or the Monomyth to describe the deities. Yes they |work as general tools, but fall down when you try to get into the |gritty details. Here's an even worse model: Glorantha is like a Shadow in Zelazny's Amber universe. The Godtime corresponds to the True World. Gods are power sources in Shadow. Spells can be fueled by oneself or external power sources, etc. etc. A parting shot about KoS: is it possible to conceive of a cult of the Invisible Red Moon after its fall? --------------------- From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Subject: Expendible men Message-ID: <9407051818.AA05934@sonata.cc.purdue.edu> Date: 5 Jul 94 08:18:07 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5036 This is something that I wish more people on this list were aware of (a few are). By and large, men aren't very useful for most things in a preindustrial world. They can lift heavy stuff, and fight if there's danger, but there's no point in having any more of them around than absolutely necessary. Thus, men are warriors, because they're expendible. Kill a man, and you've just killed a man. His breeding potential can be replaced by another man and the rate of reproduction doesn't diminish. Kill a woman, and THEN you've created a reproductive disaster. Also, regardless of the macho schoolboy fantasies of many people, in any "hunting" society, it's the women who procure most of the food. The same is often true of pastoral societies. In the former, meat is a lot of effort to get. In the latter, killing off your herds for food can't be done too often (you lose your sources of wool, dung, milk, etc.). Of course, bulls can be slaughtered and eaten without causing too much trauma to the herd. So long as you have a few left over for breeding. I would even venture to say that the Praxians have similar divisions, although there is less non-meat food in a Praxian diet than in any other diet of Glorantha or Earth. The women care for the herds. I'd even venture to say that if anyone "owns" the herds, it would be the WOMEN of Prax, not the men. (After all, Eiritha is the herd mother, Waha is her SON.) Men are necessary for defense and raiding (their powers of death) but women are the keepers of the herds and all means of production (the powers of life). --------------------- From: Urox@aol.com Subject: Women in Glorantha Message-ID: <9407051456.tn12414@aol.com> Date: 5 Jul 94 18:56:45 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5037 Last week I commented about roles for women characters and several people responded (rather humorously): Barron said: I can, however, imagine a very interesting scenario that is based on a "women's roles" basis. Intriguing noblewomen would be a great start. A murder in a nunnery or the Paps would be another. To stretch the imagery a little more, how about travelling healers and their Babsi bodyguards. Or any scenario of the "your men are gone and you must protect the homestead anyway you can" variety. I'd like to hear other peoples ideas of "women's" scenarios. Pam Carlson wrote: Well, in Dara Happa, or the West, or any of those generally repressive areas, playing ANYONE with no opportunity wouldn't be much fun. Yes, there might be a lot of content and personally fulfilled Dendara initiates in the Lunar Heartland, but I can't imagine playing one. GM: "So, What's your plan for today? "Player: "Let's see... I'll bet the kids need diapering, and the floor needs to be swept... OH! Neveshantakementherask hasn't had breakfast yet -the poor man might drop dead by noon if I don't get his breakfast. Hey, I'll bet I could find some laundry to scrub, too! Can I make my search roll?" (Player rolls 08) GM: "Wow! You found some crusty old sandal-wrappings under the bed!" OK, you got me ;-). I was assuming that being an "adventurer" is not a real option for most people in Glorantha. But you can have fun anyway, like Pam's farmers who won't leave the farm: "While I am grateful to have such enthusiasm, I can't get 'em off the damn farm!" This illustrates it's not really a woman-only problem: GM: "So, What's your plan for today? Orlanthi Farmer, Lunar worker, Rokari peasant: "Let's see, I have to plow the field/ tote that bale, dig that ditch. Can I make my search roll? GM: "you bend your plow on a big rock which will take all day to dig out ....etc. I think traveling, adventuring, trading etc. can be quite interesting when you're raised to not think head bashing is the first and only option (see Pam below). IMO being a homeless wanderer who kills stuff to get their treasure really sucks, unless you're playing a game that makes it "cool" (refer to most D & D campaigns). In the western film Culpepper Cattle Co. Gary Grimes is told, "Cowboying (read adventuring) is something you do when you can't do nothin' else." In fact, being a soldier, warrior etc. is only "fun" in movies and games. If there are any combat vets on the Daily I hope they'll feel free to correct me, but based on my uncle's tales of four tours in Vietnam I'd say war changes people irreversibly in ways they might have avoided given the choice. In my own experience I know this to be true. I spent a year in East Timor (former Portuguese colony occupied by Indonesia) in '89-90 and never really got over it. Even though I wasn't actually being shot at or tortured I felt stressed and on edge 24 hours a day. People were constantly being picked up for interrogation and torture and everyone had tales about their families being murdered and villages napalmed. The secret police watched me all the time and bugged our conversations, so anytime I met someone outside the capital I had to worry about their being interrogated for talking with a foreigner. Let me tell you about _real_ Danfive Xaron agents sometime. Because I'm an American, and male, I felt like I was supposed to _do_ something or "take action." There was horror all around and since I could do almost nothing about it (our government supplies the weapons) so I felt frustrated and depressed all the time. But I noticed the Swiss Red Cross nurses, who had to actually see the tortured political prisoners daily, seemed able to take satisfaction from the little things they could do for people to make their lives a little easier. So I wondered if women aren't much better at dealing with those kind of situations. Forgive the babbling, I'll take it alt.culture.indonesia next time. Mark (last week) While the testosterone hampered men in Loskalm etc. are busy bashing each other, strutting about self- importantly and mucking things up, women could be moving in their own way to work for issues they feel are important and even establishing new cults/sects for themselves. Pam: I like this idea. The secretive "Dara Happan Ladies Knitting Needle Assassination Team" could be highly effective in those dart competitions. Women can get especially nasty when they protect their kin. Think of the "female bear protecting her cubs" stories. Babeester Gor seems to be the Gloranthan exemplification of this, but there could be protection subcults associated with other earth deities. (Maybe not quite so twisted?) Dendaran Daughters for Defense? Praxian Mothers Against Marauding Morokanth? Sisters of Sartar? The Grazers have the Feathered Horse Queen, whose representatives teach "steak knife" skill....And, I'm gonna go out on a limb, here... I think that women tend to be less confrontational than men, and they prefer to look for compromise rather than argue. Perhaps this is a function of the above brain hormone influence, maybe it's learned, but that doesn't really matter. In Glorantha, it would allow for women to make good diplomats, translators, merchants -good Issaries/Etyries culties. I wonder if a radical solar woman could join Lokarnos? Could a Western woman be a shopkeeper or a trader? These are great ideas and I hope I can use some of them. My main problem is I usually can't find many women players and few guys are interested. This non-confrontational approach is just what I was getting at. I don't feel that "interesting" should at all mean "good in battle" for character roles. But I recognize that Glorantha is a violent world where high adventure takes place, so no flames please. By the way Pam, it's Mark, not Marc, but it's pronounced "Throatwobbler Mangrove." for you Monty Python fans :-). Mark Foster --------------------- From: Urox@aol.com Subject: Ralzakark Message-ID: <9407051456.tn12406@aol.com> Date: 5 Jul 94 18:56:34 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5038 > jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) >said in X-RQ-ID: 5024 >Why, doesn't everyone know that Ralzakark is Arkat in convalescence? Sure Bryan, but tell the entire story. Bryan's character Gorrssh (sp?) the Troll had a fling with a human woman in the Frog River Dorastor campaign during the Chaos Flood winter. When it came time to consumate the affair Gorrssh raised his arms and begged Kyger Litor to bless the union, then rolled an 11 for DI. Needless to say, the Dark Earth moved and you gotta figure somebody heard the prayer despite any anatomical incompatibilities. Now this woman is pregnant with what we think is Arkat Kingtroll. --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 05 Jul 1994 Message-ID: <9407052021.AA06090@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 5 Jul 94 08:22:22 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5039 Alex discusses the Pol Joni: >Given the Waha is a largely shamanistic religion, I see no reason >why they'd all have to apostasise I can't help but theorize that Waha's spirit of retribution might visit folks who rode horses and were his initiates. >"they became, in every way, one of the many bickering tribes of the >plains". Certainly the Pol Joni are one of the Praxian tribes, but that doesn't mean that the other Praxians don't hate them more than most other rival tribes. Like I said, the average Praxian nomad rates the Pol Joni just higher than the Morocanth. When they capture Pol Joni steeds, I'm sure they kill them out of hand. This doesn't mean they won't trade with 'em or happily steal their cattle. But they have one more thing to needle the Pol Joni about (their Bastard status, and the horse-riding) than they do the other Praxian tribes. All I'm saying is that the Praxians recognize the Pol Joni as different (inferior) both quantitatively and qualitatively than the other tribes. I predict they rate the Pol Joni below the Zebra Riders on a scale of desirability. (Not that that's so bad.) >Leading to thorny questions such as: Is Illusion Reality?; and Is >Illusion Caused By Belief? To answer the first question: Yes. In Glorantha, Illusion is reality. The only difference is that Illusion is temporary reality. Disbelieving a magic illusion in Glorantha doesn't cause it to fade before your eyes -- you still see the damn thing. If an illusion is able to damage you because it's red-hot or whatever, the damage doesn't vanish because you realize it's not a _real_ whatsit. This is one of the basic principles of Glorantha, and has many philosophic and cultural implications. >Back of the class for the implied conflation of "British" and >"England", Sandy. Sorry. *he whines piteously* I know the difference, honest. My own ancestors are from Wales, you see. Besides, my initial statement was "I went to England, and learned that British players did X". You see (he weasels), on my first trip here I was _only_ in England, but I met players from Scotland and England both, so you see my trip was to England, and the players were British. Did that work? Were you convinced? I surmise: >> Joerg B. coins the noxious barbarism Luxites. Joerg passes the buck >Sorry, this honour goes to Greg. So. You're no more than a sniveling accomplice, eh? I shall still have to take Stern Measures with you, though Greg obviously is going to come in for his share. I predict Greg forgot about the word "Shanasse" when churning out GROY. The "Shanasse" were at one time used to refer to most of the Heavenly Host in the Dara Happan culture. I'm sure the Pentans accept them, too, but whether the Shanasse originated with Pent or with Dara Happa I don't know. In either case, both of them know of 'em now. The Kralori I'm sure have some equivalent. re: GoG >What made you change your mind? The choice was: do 19 fancy long cults or do 60 short-forms. We decided that 60 short cults would be more useful to most players and, in typical optimistic Chaosium style, thought we'd be publishing the Long Forms straightaway. Har har. >How many cults (and which) are still in cold storage? Here are the cults that were to go into the GoG That Was Not To Be: Invisible God, Horned God, Ancestor Worship, Hykim & Mikyh, Flamal, Subere, Magasta, Ernalda, Orlanth, Yelm, Red Goddess, Chalana Arroy, Eurmal, Uleria, Humakt, Dayzatar, Bolongo, Mastakos, Mostal. Careful examination will reveal that we picked all the Rune Origins for this first project.