From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 11 Jul 1994, part 2
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex)
Subject: Dayzatar and less
Message-ID: <9407081739.AA07856@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Jul 94 17:39:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5079
Sandy "What this net needs is more ^Ms in its diet" Petersen states, in
a flat mono(myth)tone, concerning Der Official Dayzatar Cult:
> Only minor alterations are needed for the Teshnan version: Zitro Argon.
Where _did_ I put that list of execution methods? };-)
Personally, I consider my project to produce a variant Dayzatar cult in
_Peloria_ only temporily shelved...
> Folk who die in the worship of Dayzatar go to dwell forever in
> heaven.
Who ever said it was a sure thing, eh, Sandy?
> Dayzatar is the Source of Truth, and is always
> alsoassociated with the Light Rune.
> Some monasteries are complete little communities and supportthemselves.
How, exactly? It's not likely Monks do physical labour, much less
till the land, so they're not likely to be self-sufficient after
the fashion of some earthly monasteries.
> Monks of Dayzatar are free of all cult responsibilities.They
> may ignore any calls to service, former geases, andresponsibilities
> beyond those of seeking the truths of Dayzatar.
> Most sky and fire gods are friendly to this cult. Their priestsmay
> join this cult upon retirement from active duty.
What happened to that Extensive Qualifying Period, huh?
> Alex Ferguson, bitter foe o' the Monomyth:
> >But was it _really_ true? That it "worked" for a while, and in a
> >limited area, merely shows that it was a useful working model, or
> >approximation, within that domain.
> 'Twas never claimed to be more than a useful approximation.
> For all your nitpicking, the Monomyth concept still works better than
> any other way of trying to understand the Gloranthan universe. The
> fact that the myth had "bugs" in no way invalidates the basic idea.
Firstly, the Monomyth _isn't_ a myth (or at least, wasn't until after the
GLers), so claiming that it has "mythic truth" is suspect.
When I hear statements like "the Monomyth is true", I don't so such think
"clearly, it's actually false", but rather "in what sense do you mean,
_true_?" To what are you claiming it's a useful approximation to?
a) The History of the Godtime. It Really Happened this way, honest, guv.
The Jrurgian Monomth, as it were.
b) The myths people told about the Godtime, based on some form of a).
Possibly how the Jrusteli regarded it?
c) The myths people told about the Godtime, their Deeply Ingrained
Psychological Need to believe such things: the Campbellian Monomyth,
Jung, the earthly "science" of mythography.
d) The observable state of the Godplane, as it exists currently, or
either immediately before or after the GLers got to it.
And before I'm accused of trying to pin you on the chaotic horns of a False
Tetralemma, I don't assert the above to be exhausive, or mutually exclusive.
> It's like saying that the fact that certain biological facts
> are difficult to explain means that the whole theory of organic
> evolution is bunk (an argument I've heard from creationists).
Or a bit like saying this phlogiston theory business has one or two minor
bugs in it.
> I'm
> sure that the God Learners and subsequent philosophers spent years of
> their life arguing about this or that detail of the myth (much as we
> are doing). In any case,
Things like what caused the Darkness is a Minor Detail? What we're doing
is only comparable to the above if _we accept_ the Fundamental Truth of
the Monomyth.
> >Just like turn of the century earthly "scientific" mythography did
> >the same for us? Like Lewis Spence "proving" that Ancient Eygpt must
> >have gone through a shamanistic phase of worship?
> Exactly.
Clearly novel use of the word "true", then.
> Since we know that the Tolat special night is only one night long
> [...] this lets us learn some conclusions about Alex's
> own sexual habits.
Hey, if you're having sex on the Godplane, one night could encompass
the proverbial Mythic Age, no?
(An unsporting correspondant would perform a similar calculation for
Sandy's "pleasurable" hypothesis, and send appropriate condolences to
Mrs. P. ;-) ;-P )
> I suggested that the Hrestoli not be as sexist as the Rokari. Alex
> wonders:
> >Why? Rokarism isn't all that long-ago an "offshoot" of Hrestolism.
> So that Western PCs will be able to experience a more dynamic
> imbalance between Rokarism and Hrestoli.
You seem to have abandonned "Glorantha-level" arguments several messages
ago on this thread, but I'll press on regardless.
Note that you're not merely suggesting the Hrestoli be somewhat less
sexist than the Rokari, you're suggesting they have _institutionalised_
egalitarianism (of the sexes), while Rokari have institutionalised
sexism.
> If all the Malkioni (except
> minor heretics) are rabid sexists, then there is less to chose
> between them.
I've already suggested that they have _different_ caste systems for women;
I just happened to put 'em the sensible way round, unlike my various
detractors. ;-) I think there's already a great deal to choose between
the two; they might be at each other's throats (theologically speaking)
but we need hardly make them dualistic opposites.
> Jeez, Alex, I thought you'd be the Last Person to argue
> against the expansion of a Rune to mean more than the original narrow
> definition. Hunger means Undeath, and it means Hunger, and it
> probably means some other stuff, too, of interest primarily to
> Chaotic philosophers.
Expansion, schexpansion. It's been _moved_, and more to the point, moved
to a less meaningful place. For example, does Gark possess the "Hunger"
rune? I doubt it, but he would certainly have possessed Undead. And as
you yourself have mused, not all "hungry" cults have Hunger; Hunger is
seemingly reserved for Nasty Chaotic Hungry Types. Messy-messy-messy.
And all because Greg and his little helpers couldn't think of a more
amusing runic association for Krasht, so they nicked (not Nicked, just
nicked) the hitherto-sensible Undead rune. Hey, I almost sounded like
Devin, just then, didn't I? ;-)
> I should
> think a line of flying Shades would be an excellent technique to
> break up a cavalry charge, seeing as 98% of the horses charging you
> get Demoralized as they come, and 10% either drop dead or collapse in
> their tracks.
Now work out how many close-order infantry could could have nobbled for the
same cubic metrage of Shade.
Alex.
---------------------
From: Akira19893@aol.com
Subject: Codex #2
Message-ID: <9407081404.tn159423@aol.com>
Date: 8 Jul 94 18:04:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5080
Greetings All!
Jim Catel here, just got Codex #2 on Wednesday and have only had a chance to
give it a brief looking over, but from what I have read so far it looks
fantastic - kudos to all involved. John Bridges cover art is excellent -
thats one seriously mean looking crew of orlanthi.
Mike - thanks for the kind words for Rick.
A quick question that maybe Mark Sabulaskas, Mike or Nick Brooke could
answer. In the Timeline for Fronela there are two entries for Syranthir, one
in 719 - Syranthir of Jorri and one in 725 - Syranthir Forefront. Are these
two different Syranthirs or the same person?
Those of you who haven't subscribed to Codex, I would highly recommend doing
so.
TTFN,
Jim Catel
---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 08 Jul 1994
Message-ID: <9407081905.AA12813@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 8 Jul 94 07:06:16 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5081
Mark Foster says
>being a soldier, warrior etc. is only "fun" in movies and games.
I said that war doesn't have to be glorified to be enjoyable.
Mark, understandably confused, asks me to please elaborate.
I will steal examples from various sources in an attempt to
try to explain.
The spaghetti Western "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" takes
place during the American Civil War. The heroes of the story are
classic PC-style-adventurers. The war is portrayed as pointless and
bloody. The "PCs" get caught up in the middle of it, get imprisoned,
escape, join the Union Army, etc. all in an attempt to accomplish
their own goals, which have little to do with the war. Essentially,
the war acts as the adventure's "world".
Akira Kurosawa's filim "Kagemusha" not only does not glorify
war, it does not even particularly glorify the Samurai lifestyle. Yet
the plot in which the low-born hero is caught up is fascinating, and
closely linked to Takeda Shingen's campaigns. The final battle is
portrayed more like a natural disaster than a military conflict.
A war or other similar situation can be an exceedingly
interesting place to run an adventurer, even if your goal is to save
lives rather than take them, or if the war takes place "outside" the
main adventure.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex)
Subject: Holy Country stuff.
Message-ID: <9407081800.AA07931@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Jul 94 18:00:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5082
MOB:
> Maybe 'No-shit' is how the heavily-accented Heortland refugees who've
> swarmed into the city recently say it; no doubt this annoys the
> Matriarch and her axe-maidens
And annoyed Babs initiates aren't a big enough incentive to Correct
Pronunciation?
> Jim Chapin (hey, did you play Leonidas at Convulsion?) reminds:
That would have been a certain Rune Czar^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HNomadic
Interactive Shaman, if memory serves.
> Hey Jim, where you the guy who played Leonidas at Convulsion?
I'm sure I just covered that. ;-)
Philip Juffs:
> Mermen Cities.
> Most of the mermen breath air every hour or so, yet in River of Cradles it makes
> refrence to mermen cites off the cost of Corflu, out past the shallow shelf. How
> do the mermen get an air supply when there in there cities?
I picture cities with air-filled domes, a la tacky Marvel comic featuring
Atlantis, and Lemura (I think that was the other one). How do they obtain
the air? Urm, dunno. Giant snorkel plants? Giant artifacts to extract air
from water? Hyrdoponics?
> Or am I getting the wrong end of the trident.
Owchowchowch!
> P.S. What does a skullbush plant look like, and can you smoke one?
Sandy detoxes:
> _I_ can't smoke one. It's against my religion. How about you?
Really? Even if it's No Fun, anyway?
Alex
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex)
Subject: AiG on spirit magic
Message-ID: <9407081801.AA07940@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Jul 94 18:01:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5083
Kevin Rose:
> Dave Cutler: Spell collecting for Divine Cults. Three minor problem with
> this concept (IMO): First, You are exploiting a bug, not a feature. AiG
> properly fixes this so spell spirits are a one-use sort of critter.
AiG wishes. I don't think this is a bug at all; that temples have spirits
associated with them, for amongst other things, spell teaching is fairly
well established. That they'd get "used up" by teaching one person a spell
seems fairly broken, itself.
However, I don't think it's such a great idea to try and circumvent the
Spellteaching route in favour of a more "shamanisic: approach, at least
in "civilised" areas like Sartar and Heortland. If there's a problem
with teaching it by this route, perhaps we need to examine the mechanics
of the spell, or the rate at which rune magic is reinstalled (: thanks,
Joerg) in general.
> This
> is a good thing as otherwise all the cults become very similar in terms of
> spirit magic (They have them all.)
I agree that they should stick to "cult" spirits, and hence "cult" magics,
as a rule, though.
> Sorcerer Familars as justification for Sorcerer Fetches:
> Familiars are a crutch. I have never had a PC want to create a familiar
> (Other than a Nymph, but that is sort of a special case)
He had the same idea as Nikolos is the RQ3 Magic Book, did he?
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex)
Subject: KB'd.
Message-ID: <9407081819.AA07978@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Jul 94 18:19:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5084
Steve Stair:
> I'd like to get y'all's reaction to how the extra damage from magic
> affects knockback. For example, is the (Spirit) Bladesharp, (Divine) Strike,
> and (Sorcery) Damage Boosting damage figured in to the knockback effect?
I'd favour something like the GURPS model: added damage from sharpness
doesn't add to KB, extra "impact" (force behind swing) does. Harder to
do exactly in RQ, though.
Sandy:
> That's how I play it. It's more exciting and interesting to
> have the glowing magic sword send opponents flying like a kick in a
> cheap karate movie. I always go for the superficially-neat cheap
> trick in my own games.
Thank you, Sandy. Confessing your problem is the first step to letting us
help you with it. ;-)
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex)
Subject: Time and the LBQ.
Message-ID: <9407081851.AA08008@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Jul 94 18:51:31 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5085
Graeme Lindsell):
> >but I don't see why people would believe it to be "not time",
> >unless they have some reason to.
> Why? people can believe some really strange things.
But they generally have _a_ reason (or more), however weird.
> As for as
> I can see, they don't believe it to be "not time" (ie they think
> it's causal), but not Time ie the Gods were unbound. Why they
> believe Time should bind gods is another matter.
But rather closer to the one I just asked. Why would people suppose pre-
History to be acasual, or timeless, if they had a single historical, or
apparently historical account of it? One thing this suggests to me is
that the Theyalan belief in Time may result from the 1st Council's own
reconciling of distinct, if not contradictory, myths. That this seemingly
_didn't_ form a single causal thread further suggests that the monomyth
doesn't not fully or properly reflect such distinct beliefs. (Since the
Monomyth itself is basically causal.)
> >Except that it would limit resurrectees to those linked to the Fire rune,
> >and extend to (possibly only) those who'd been dead for more than seven
> >days.
> Please explain how Arkat and Sheng Seleris were bound to the Fire rune.
Arkat wasn't _resurrected_ by the LBQ, though. I don't know if he has
a connection, as such. SS's link to the fire rune is fairly logical,
what with him being a Pentan shaman, who're wont to do things like
"swear upon the Burning Lance".
> A short side question: the Malkion, son of a Storm God and a Water Nymph
> stuuf. Is this actually believed by the West? I can't see them saying their
> Prophet was descended from a False God. It seems to me that this is another
> God Learner concept, perhaps an attempt to put Malkion into the Monomyth,
> where he could be more easily manipulated.
Or more straightforwardly, just the theists trying to annoy 'em. The first
"combined" myths were the Theyalabns, after all.
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex)
Subject: Spot the Healer.
Message-ID: <9407081909.AA08031@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Jul 94 19:09:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5087
David Cake quibbles with my intentional misgreement with Devin:
>>> In any case, I wonder if your analysis of 1% of the population being
>>> Healers and only 3% of those Healers being Priestesses stacks up with
>>> what has been presented.
> I agree. The 3% is conspicuously high.
> Conspicuously low, according to Sandy and me. 1% may be too high though.
> Remember all CA worshippers are professional Healers.
I don't think this is entirely true, but it is fair to say that CA initiates
are fairly dedicated types, and aren't all of the "body" of worshippers.
But nor would I count all Orlanthi (or whomever, according to region) as such,
so I don't think that figures such as 1 in 5 are worth more than a quick
belly laugh. Let's recall that High Healer is actually rather hard to
qualify for, compared to other priestly positions.
> Basically, I think that there must be some separation between god and
> cult, and the god must not be omnipotent. Otherwise we have no heresy, no
> corrupt priests. Or rather we just claim that they are all illuminated, which
> is almost as limiting. I like religions to be a bit less reliable than CoP
> implies.
I'm not sure CoP _does_ imply any particular reliability to religions: it
says what the particular cult believes, and would like for it's initiates to
be like, not necessarily exactly how things must be, precisely.
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex)
Subject: Crack shade Forelorn Hope units.
Message-ID: <9407081915.AA08038@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Jul 94 19:15:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5088
Elias Kadri:
> [Sandy and Alex disputing the effectiveness of elementals
> against cavalry]
> Don't forget that horses are _much_ less tolerant of the unknown
> than humans are. I would think a horse (even a cavalry-trained horse)
> confronted by a shade would be pretty likely to panic, regardless of
> the magical effects.
This argument is specific to shades, though, i.e., concerns the nature
of the attack, not how it's delivered. In general, "artillery", or magic
which affects a large area per go, or is nasty, but inaccurate, will be
proportionately more effective against close-order infantry than cavalry.
If elementals are the mass-combat wonder-weapon Sandy suggests, any cavalry
in possession of a clue will train against them so's they're not _totally_
flummoxed.
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex)
Subject: Boardom.
Message-ID: <9407081946.AA08066@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Jul 94 19:46:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5089
Clay Luther:
> Well, FYI, the great horned boar has roamed Dragon Pass for time
> immemorial. They are extremely rare indeed, since it is a curious
> mutation which produces them. The boar's tusks simply do not grow
> right, but instead grow back along the jaw, through the jowls, and
> eventually bursting through the skin just below the ears.
Would this make it impossible for him to open his jaw, as it'd effective bolt
the lower mandible onto the skull?
Alex.
---------------------
From: 100270.337@compuserve.com (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Islamic Malkioni
Message-ID: <940708200102_100270.337_BHL58-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 8 Jul 94 20:01:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5090
> How difficult would it to insert Malkion in place of Muhammed?
Not at all. It's already been done, in our most basic sources: try GoG.
The creed of the Men of the West runs: "There is no God but the Invisible
God, and Malkion and Hrestol are his Prophets."
This is why I'm rather calm about the "discovery" of Islamic parallels in
Malkionism. On the other hand, adding a bit more exotic chic w/things like
the Jrusteli Jihad, my Carmanian Dualists, extreme Legalism, etc. doesn't
hurt Malkionism at all. But I don't think there are many who'll be seeing
the West as more Arabian than Arthurian.
> If you assume that cash is readily available in Glorantha, there is no
> problem. If you have to pay with a heifer, you get a whole scenario...
Wonderful: inspiring stuff!
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: david_baur@cl_63smtp_gw.chinalake.navy.mil (David Baur)
Subject: Women, spirits, CAs, Kudos
Message-ID: <9407082039.AA04079@Sun.COM>
Date: 8 Jul 94 05:30:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5091
Women, spirits, CAs, Kudos 7/8/94 1:28
PM
Women stat modifications
=====================
Nils Hammer (X-RQ-ID: 5060) writes:
"Since the subject of women in role playing games is still around I thought
I should mention that I have revised my idea of appropriate stats for rolling
female characters, which we discussed some time ago. I had forgotten about
the Victorian era circus-woman who lifted elephants. Ok, she only lifted one
elephant at a time, but I find it noteworthy. Women are -2 SIZ. As others
have noted here they often do more work than men, so maybe +1 CON.
Any other stat differences should be by culturally derived stat training."
One other stat mod I've seen in other games is boosting the DEX. To balance
out the -2 loss, it should be fair to give a +2 gain. I propose as you say
with also a +1 DEX. As to your comments about females, how about the
Lunarian Razoress. She has notoriety.
I can't say much more on this as many of my playerrs are on the Dailies and I
would not want to give them too much of a heads up, even though they have
encountered 3 strong adventuresses.
Spirit spells at temples
==================
Joerg Baumgartner (X-RQ-ID: 5065) quoting Devin Cutler (-:5054)
>> No, the shrine does not have spell teaching, but the Priest who tends the
>> shrine (a PC) knows the True name of the Bladesharp and knows Summon Spell
>> Spirit and Control Spell Spirit, so in a sense the shrine to which he is
>> affiliated teaches that spell.
>Ok, but then there is the next problem: the priest has fought the spirit
>down to zero MP. How does this sorry remains of a spell spirit initiate
>spirit combat?
>And: is the Summon Spell Spirit the priest uses a divine or a spirit
>spell? If it is a spirit spell, where did he get it?
Our group interprets it as a cult spell spirit who as a group are used to
this kind of teaching and will teach one cult member it's spell as the
summoning priest bids.
Chelana Arroy Healings
===================
Joerg Baumgartner (X-RQ-ID: 5065) writes:
"I'd expect that CA Healers prefer to treat wounds over resurrecting
casualties, and they prefer to treat diseases sent by Chalana's arch-foe
Malia over treating wounds on people who (viewed from a CA POV) deserve
some punishment for their violent ways."
Yea verily! I also expect them to treat wounds more mundainly, if permitted;
more like a hospital. This is part of the skills they learned as they
progressed through their religion. This is why they have a first aid, treat
disease, and plant lore skill. I also agree with Joerg's form of triage, but
this only occurs when there are choices to make. I also look at their
shrines as a form of a hospitol with the priestess as doctors, the initiates
as RNs, and the lay members as candystripers (So to speak).
Visible Spell Effects
===============
Thanks Sandy (X-RQ-ID: 5067), for your thoughts. We've been having similar
discussions on and off for awhile. I think I've heard most of the same cons
you have as well as some of the pros (Elias agrees with you whole heartedly).
We are in the reconcider phase and I passed your response out to the others
in my group.
As to an idea being mocked (I got one of those locally), I add that that is
usually an indication of a closed or small mind (not knowing who you refer to
OH). These forums are for expanding and sharing ideas instead of closing of
the flow of imagination which is a main element in any RPG. (< Stepping of
the soapbox before it breaks under the weight of emotion > Ahem)
Bye for now