From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 14 Jul 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
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world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
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From: DevinC@aol.com
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 13 Jul 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <9407131502.tn366653@aol.com>
Date: 13 Jul 94 19:02:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5142
Devin Cutler here:
Joerg writes:
"I like the overall description of this, but I doubt that this is what
happens to the worshippers as a mass"
Why not? If Orlanth is omnipresent enough to DI several places simultaneously
or to caretake the winds all over Glorantha, then certainly he can send a
tiny piece of his admittedly awesome essence into ALL of the worshippers at
the HHD ceremonies. I imagine the contact times for each worshipper need to
be long, perhaps it would feel merely as if a cool breeze had blown through
the bodies of each worshipper.
"Worshippers gain POW on HHDs? Wasn't it just the officiating priest who
channels the vast amount of life force to the deity?"
In the Worship (Deity) Divine Magic description, it clearly states that
Initiates of a cult who worship at HHD ceremonies where a Priest casts
Worship (Deity) and successfully makes his ceremony roll, then ALL of the
Initiates gain a POW gain roll.
"Rather the willingness of the worshipper to give up some of her excess
life force (aka MP) to give to the deity."
No, I meant the devoutness. If Lhankor Mhy can read minds unbidden (via his
magicks), then certainly a god who has been invited into a worshipper's body,
mind, and soul by that selfsame worshipper can do same, especially with
matters that relate directly to that god.
"The worshipper must be willing to go along with the ritual, and to give
up most of her excess life force to the deity. No more, no less. If being
devout consists of this, and this alone, ok, they need to be 100% devout."
No, I say the worshipper must invite the god into himself and open up himself
entirely to the god (it is almost a test of trust, since the worshipper is
allowing himself to be possessed by the god and anything could happen to
him). The god will not give the worshipper any benefits until this act of
opening is completed.
"Nice and colourful, but even if true, does not contain any mind police,
except for very favoured worshippers."
Why not? It seems, given the lack of "official" material on this subject,
that either viewpoint is valid.
"I picture the deities as a quite pragmatic lot when it comes to deal
with their worshippers. Of utmost importance to them is to receive more
magic/life force in the deal than they deal out. It is nice if they stand
behind the religion full mind and heart, but as long as they feed the
deity, they remain acceptable. A deity is only as strong as the supporting
mundane forces. In case of the greater deities, natural forces come in as
well."
And this really hearkens back to that basic of all questions: Do worshippers
create the deity? I say no...you say yes.
"Life force is never pure when generated, personality always rubs off
with the MP. As long as the personality attached to the life force isn't
tainted, the life force remains acceptable."
Then this approach depends upon one's interpretation regarding how much
personality rubs off, and what exactly is included in personality.
"No. Intentions, never. Emotions, maybe. Mainly awe, or fear of the dangers
of Godplane, or worry from troubles in daily life, which may be specified
voluntarily, but needn't be specified in order to participate."
I would imagine that the god first picks up emotions. Yes, almost every
worshipper will have the awe and fear you describe. But if the god senses too
much fear, he will investigate further. Or if he senses resistance or
defiance.
"One side effect of these rituals is to put people into the right frame
of mind; they are similar in nature to Demoralize or Fanaticism in that
they produce a state of mind not naturally attainable.
Once in this state of mind, it is hard to be anything but devout..."
This would seem to be a hindrance for the cult, not a useful ritual. Your
description makes it seem that these cleansing rituals would take someone who
is tr ying to betray the cult and wash them of their betraying thoughts for a
short while (during the ritual), and then the effct would wear off (after the
person has passed through the ritual and is now trusted by the cult). In this
case, there is all the more reason for the cult to NOT perform the cleansing
ritual, which seems more like a masking ritual.
Or did I completely misunderstand your intentions (always a possibility with
me ;-)? )
"Except devoutness consists of the purely mechanical feeding
considerations I detailed above, in that case okayed."
Nope. By devotedness, I mean the devotedness we have discussed off line.
"No, it is straight RQ3. CON*5 you get for lying in bed, with a nurse caring
for all your needs. Most diseases are contracted in the outskirts, where
CON*3 is granted if you're moved around in anything less comfortable than
a sedan chair or left lying in your sleeping roll without a tent. Characters
defending themselves sink to CON*2, and if they are wounded in the process,
to CON*1. Rather bleak chances for someone in Vulture Country exposed to
one of Muriah's minion..."
Except often times a party CAN encamp and rest for a while. Also, keep in
mind that RQ3 has the silly effect of speeding up disease shake-off rolls as
the disease becomes more severe. Thus, for a terminal or acute disease, you
really aren't going to have to lie still for that long in order to throw the
thing off (maybe from 5 minutes to an hour). Doesn't sound like too much of a
problem to me. The most dangerous disease in this case is the one that lasts
a day....too long to lie around still in a dangerous area, but too short to
get to a CA temple.
"Two seasons you could have sed for survival skills, or for Rune level
training. Half a year of your life's experience annihilated. How does
this sound?"
Of course time lost is time wasted. But two seasons is still no big deal,
especially if you play in a cohesive group where the other players are
willing to wait for that character to tend his ailments. Also, no big deal in
campaigns that span many years at a go.
"And some characteristics aren't trainable; brain fever is a special terror."
Yup, Brain fever is alone the only disease my players fear. (oh, and the
Plague from CoT, which can only be thrown off with a Con x1%).
"I rule that the recipient has to let the spirit access him unhindered,
else the spirit isn't obligated to teach its spell."
This is what I rule too.
"The rules say that initiates of the cult gain cheaper access to the
spells. While I agree with the AiG designers that access to the powerful
spells is too cheap in RQ3, the possibility to buy spells from other
cults than one's own has been in the rules already in 1984, in the
"DeLuxe" edition."
Please point this out exaclty for my reference. I have looked for it
everywhere. RQ3 only gives rules for approaching a shaman to learn spirit
magic. Otherwise, it says nothign about learning cult spirit magicks, and GoG
ONLY states that one can get spirit magicks from one's cult or associated
cults.
"Which means that only the caster of the control spell (which is needed to
make the spirit attack in the first place) can learn the spell. So to learn
the spell from an unaligned spirit you'd need to cast Control Spell Spirit
upon it. In my most benevolent days, I only allowed the summoner to try and
control a spirit summoned by him with a control spell, and only one chance,
as soon as the summoning is completed and the mental link to the summoned
entity still exists."
I have rules that Control Spell Spirit can control the Spell Spirit to do
anything, including combat and thereby teach anyone the Control caster
desires. Also, I allow the Controller to cast the spell until the Summoned
Spirit regains its senses (by rolling POW x1% as per the Summoning RQ3
rules).
"(Once I had a runaway shaman aprentice turned thief in my campaign who
tried to access spirit magic exactly this way. The rest of the party was
quite busy to find exorcists...)"
But Spell Spirits cannot possess. I believe it says this in the Creatures
Section under psiirts (I am at work and do not have my RQ stuff handy).
"So the spell spirit conveying the spirit spell Summon Spell Spirit has
to be learned this cheating way as well? Or did the shrine's attendant
start to worship the spell spirit in order to make it more willing to
serve the cult? In this case, you get a fully fledged spirit cult attached
to the shrine, and to learn the spell you'd have to sacrifice 1 POW for
initiation. Attractive enough for worshippers who have no alternative,
I'd expect, but more costly than the regular way of going to a non-hostile
temple and paying too much."
The cheating way, of course :-)
"The expellation of disease spirits can be done with a compliment of
healing spirits. Since the disease spirit is embodied, the healing
spirits can take turns to soften it up."
Or just use spirit-affecting magicks.
"Getting to the CA priestess through the wilderness is the trick. And the
healing spirit must be rested, the Spirit Block must be ready, "
Yes, there are always mitigating factors. But I like there to be a bit of
risk AFTER the party makes it to the CA temple. I don't like the "OK, we made
it to the CA temple, everything is automatically better" routine.
"One paragraph lower the penalty for not staying in bed (a bad idea in a
broo infected ruin, IMO) is detailed."
See my paragraph earlier for lying in bed.
"When you travel to the temple, you wear your best outfit, at least on the
last stage of the trip when you present the damned gift to the priesthood.
This is a lot different from cowboying..."
Indeed, so about 1/2km outside of town, you tie up your cow and change in the
bushes, and then lead your cow triumphantly into town. Better yet, one of
your children leads the cow into town, with you walking ahead of it in your
finery, perhaps even riding on a mule or pony.
Alex writes:
"Doesn't seem to have much to do with Performing the Ritual, for one thing."
You're right, the performance of the ritual (the dances and chants and all of
the other mechanistic gew-gaws) serve only to elevate the gathering into
contact with the deity being worshipped. It is sort of a summon deity spell.
"Essentially, you're arguing that gods do, and can know their worshippers
minds, but not invasively, it just happens to be compulsory. "
Compulsory to getting something in return from the god...yes!
" This is at
least against the spirit of what we've been told about about the general
lack of such knowledge. I can't actually think of a "mechanism" which
does this sort of thing, off the top of my head; Mindlink and possession
by spirits don't work on a subconcious level, at least."
I seem to remember an old WF that stated that gods do know the minds of their
Runelevel worshippers. I think it may have been in the same issue that spoke
of DI and Divination.
In any case, Truespeak and Mindread certainly approach or exceed this
ability.
"I agree with (the part of) your statement about the ritual entering the
Godplane, but not that it'd constitute "possession" by the god in the sense
you imply."
Difference in style, then.
"And if the god is Personally Present during the ritual, in a sentient,
conscious way, in Real Time, how does he fail to notice all the people
thinking "Faltikus, the evilluminatedioussoundingbajiriddling bastard",
Krogar elbowing him of of the way in the middle of the ceremony, etc, even
if he's not able to sense his Naughtily Collaborating Thoughts directly?
Is this consistent with the "true" rumour that Illumination is not a Chaotic
deception, but a genuine revelation about the nature of Glorantha?"
I doubt a god would listen to the whinings of his worshippers viz a viz other
worshippers. Otherwise, we get a situation wherein a group of ambitious
priests who want to overthrow the high priest merely think bad thoughts about
him during HHD. I would imagine the god only reads thoughts concerning
devotion to him by that worshipper.
In any case, what is to stop a god from punishing an Illuminate when, during
Divination, the High Priest voices his suspicions to the god?
"I don't see what's ambiguous about it. It's not specific as to what the
"real" Deezola cult is like, though. (Nor was CoP, of course.)"
Well, CoP gives the subcult of Deezola Reusable Resurrection. GoG does not
specifically say one way or the other. This seems to bring forth an
ambiguity.
"I think the problem is rather that there's no clear _incentive_ for him to
have a high POW. If it were, for example, necessary in order to officiate
at ceremonies, as vaguely implied by RQ2, problem solved. That this wouldn't
allow him quite the same rate of POW gain through adventuring as RQ2
doesn't bother me overmuch."
I would also like to see incentives for keeping POW high. But I would also
like to see a mechanism for gaining POW that is not dependent upon current
POW level.
"RQ2ism. Everyone's chance in RQ3 is the same. ("That really sucks too",
says Devin.)"
Yep, I looked this up yesterday and realized that I have been erroneously
holding over the Priests get +4 POW gain chance from RQ2.
"I certainly haven't. Why so? I'd have thought the reverse, since for
other cults the Sacred Time is then an additional worship ceremony."
Normal Cult Priest gets one POW gain roll at seasonal HD and one at HHD. Most
cults have a seasonal HD which IS the HHD, meaning 5 POW gain rolls per year
(or do you count ST as a season?).
ST cults get 5 seasonal HD AND their separate ST HHD.
"Note that you should count not just those _in_ Pavis, but any initiates in
the "catchment area". That is, anyone who worships there on the Holy Days.
If there aren't about 100 CA initiates in the area of Pavis county and nearby
Prax, they're in rather bad shape. (Certainly by RQ3 temple size rules.)"
True, but there would be other CA Rune Levels out there as well.
"Bigger deal if it's an untrainable stat, at least. (INT, SIZ. POW is going
to be unpleasant even if Restore Health is (otherwise) available.) And your
argument is specific to the CONx5% type of disease, and ignores more severe
strains, and spirits of disease."
Haven't seen a disease that affects Size. Have you one in your campaign? Post
it.
Yes, Brain Fever is an unholy terror.
Loren writes:
"1. If the god of the cult puts a little piece of itself into *every*
initiate *every* time there's a worship ceremony and learns
*everything* that the initiate has thought and done, then what else
can the gods be doing? They aren't omnipresent and omniscient. That's
YHWH's trick."
How do they do all of those DI's? How does Orlanth manage every wind or
zephyr? The question is not that I think Orlanth is absolutely Omni anything,
but that he is powerful enough to send pieces of himself (or maybe even
helping spirits, windfists, flintslingers, etc.) to the ceremonies. After
all, the fact that ALL worshippers can gain POW on HHD means something is
happening on a wide scale.
"2. Divination isn't free from error. Far from it. But if the gods
actually understood what people actually thought to the extent that
this implies then they'd never have any trouble making themselves
clear to their oracles... let alone make mistakes about worshippers. "
I can't believe that when the priest of Orlanth asks: "Oh Orlanth, was there
a storm in Carmania last Windsday?"
That Orlanth has ANY trouble figuring out what the priest is asking. Mistaken
Divinations are completely the fault of the priest in interpreting the
answer, not the god's fault in understanding the question.
"3. Free Will is pretty important in our world, in the games we play in
Glorantha, and I think it's important in Glorantha too. If initiates
give up their ability to make mistakes, act evil, and keep secrets
then they lose their Free Will. According to Greg, the only entities
in Glorantha that have definitely lost their Free Will are the gods,
*not* their worshippers."
Where is free will lost? Did anyone force these people to worship a deity to
whom they could not be devout. They had a pot pourri of gods to worship and
made a free choice. If they don't want the god mucking around in their body
and soul, they simply become an atheist, a sorceror, a shaman, or they don't
sac for Divine Magic. My system is merely a free exchange. The worshipper
says "I want...."
the god says " I want ......".
Also, I would imagine that the god can only sense large betrayals and
undevotedness. The god wouldn't sense, even less give a crud about, someone
not lighting the proper candle on Godday night, or even not tithing his full
10%. On the other hand, a Cacodemon worshipper trying to pass off as an
Orlanthi and trying to partake in the HHD ceremonies or gain Divine Magic is
going to have problems.
"That's three reasons why you should reject Devin's theology for your
own Glorantha."
That's three reason why you should not reject my theology for your own
Glorantha.
Regards,
Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com
---------------------
From: DevinC@aol.com
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 12 Jul 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <9407121340.tn312120@aol.com>
Date: 12 Jul 94 17:40:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5133
Devin Cutler here:
Simon writes:
" Hey!
Where did everyone go? Are you all on holiday?
Come on speak to me!
Henk? Devin? Sandy? Anybody????"
Hello. I was at Origins and in Boston/Cambridge for 4th of July.
Regards,
Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com
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From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com (Pretend that I'm a spaceman)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 13 Jul 1994, part 4
Message-ID: <01HENFPW12FM8WW9AJ@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com>
Date: 13 Jul 94 03:09:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5134
>Do the Telmori really think that they are cursed?
Nah. They don't have Barney. Also, I think some Telmori can control
their shapeshifting whilst others can't (full moon and all that).
Hence, "pure" and "cursed."
>Who is Tyram?
Used to be the singer in a band I was in. (Well, okay, it was
Tyrone....) Actually, I don't know this one, I'm just feeling weird.
>Are Illuminates immune to Detect Enemies and Sense Assassin?
I play that Sense Assassin works on Illuminates, being that
assassination is not a particularly religious act (although it may be
prompted by religious beliefs). Detect Enemies very often defines
"enemy" as "members of cult X," and in that case, I play that D. E.
does not work on Illuminates.
---------------------
From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Devoutness
Message-ID: <9407131453.AA25280@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk>
Date: 13 Jul 94 15:53:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5135
_____
Devin on devoutness:
> by inviting the god into intimate contact in order to gain the
> divine magic, one also allows the god to determine intentions and emotions
> and, thereby, devoutness.
I think your idea is interesting. It would make a sound basis for
worship in a world where initiates were few and Divine magic was
extremely rare. Not my view of Glorantha tho. You see, personally
I don't think many Gloranthans would pass the devoutness test, but
maybe I'm just an old cynic at heart.
_____
Joerg:
I broadly agree with your comments on Devin's ideas.
>Life force is never pure when generated, personality always rubs off
>with the MP. As long as the personality attached to the life force isn't
>tainted, the life force remains acceptable.
I'd rather say that the tainted lifeforce (if such exists) would be
accepted and would tend to temper the deity accordingly. I think the
attitude and feelings of the worshippers modify the god.
___
CW.
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From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller)
Subject: Vampires and Sorcery (from rq-playtest list)
Message-ID: <01HENLX3HIFC8ZEGKG@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 13 Jul 94 06:08:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5136
Joerg asks:
> The question which gets at me is: Where did Vivamort get sorcery?
> In Godtime, sorcery was the domain of the immortal races: Mostali, Vadeli
> and Brithini/Malkioni. (The eastern variant is something different IMO.)
I think you just answered your own question.
IMHO, it went something like this (and should go into the Creatures
section if RQ4 is in fact Glorantha based): The Vadeli Prince
Anagothicus Magic Hat (not his real name, which has been lost) was
heroquesting for an improved immortality spell, one that would combine
immortality and invulnerability in the same casting, and went to hell,
to the place where death was hidden, to find the secret that would
oppose death, that would make him immune to death's sting. He found it
but for some reason he could not use it. Even after he stole death for
Eurmal and Humakt he could not use it. Unhappy and inattentive, he
came across a shadowed doorway that he had never before seen, and upon
entering a chaos monster leapt on him and with with its claws it
ripped away his soul and with its mouth it drank his blood, and it
would have devoured him but he was a mighty mage, and even as disabled
as he was, with his magics pouring out of his soulless body, he pulled
mighty magics out of his hat* and enslaved the monster and stole its
secrets. Soulless and bloodless and desperate he cast the spell once
again, and the flood of magic from him slowed to a trickle. It worked!
Now he needed blood to replace that which had been drained from him,
and he happened to know a path to a god that was a sucker for anybody
who had been hurt by chaos...
* Anagothicus had bound his familiar into his hat. Vadeli sorcerors do
not create living familiars, nor do they make familiars of staves or
swords or other weapons. They bind their familiars in whatever item
they fancy.
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
"Enough sound bites. Let's get to work." -- Ross Perot sound bite
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From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 13 Jul 1994
Message-ID: <9407131722.AA02653@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 13 Jul 94 05:22:31 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5137
Stephen Stair:
>Do the Telmori really think that they are cursed?
Yes. They regard it as a curse that they MUST transform to
wolves once weekly. They do not regard it as a curse that they
transform to wolves, though, just the non-voluntary part of it.
>In Dorastor, they are called "Pure Ones" and "Cursed Ones"
I regard the "Pure Ones" as a vile Rolston-esque
interpolation and plan to malign him on the subject at every
opportunity. In my campaign, the Pure Ones are NOT Telmori who evaded
Gbaji's curse, but something else entirely. Which I dare not explain
here because Guy Hoyle is watching me. The allobroosaur is enough for
him to sweat about for now.
>Who is Tyram?
A chaos sky god.
>Are illuminates immune to Detect Enemies and Sense Assassin?
I play that they are not, if they are currently an enemy of
the caster, or currently plotting an assassinatiaon.