From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 21 Jul 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: Urox@aol.com Subject: Enough Already! Message-ID: <9407200356.tn656054@aol.com> Date: 20 Jul 94 07:56:26 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5234 Rob and Brent sez:Date: 20 Jul 94 09:16:26 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5235 Devin Cutler here: Nick writes: "This is getting boring. You're trying to distort Greg's words to have them say whatever you want them to. I doubt anyone is convinced. That Yelmic example plainly means that the god Yelm does not know the *motivation* of a Priest of Yelm who is acting on his behalf. Any other interpretation is pure sophistry. If the Divine Thought Police work for your campaign, well and good. But could you please take them away, and keep them there..." I have already agreed to take this discussion off line Nick, so you needn't worry about dislocating your jaw from over-yawning. The passgae in WF12 is not clear IMO. The paragraph before talks specifically about Orlanth, and the next paragraph mentioning the priest of Yelm only says "the god". Since it is usual to say "his god" when referring to a priest's god, I inferred that this passage was speaking about Orlanth not knowing the motivations of a Yelm priest (which makes sense IMO). Chastize Greg for bad writing if you want, but the passage is ambiguous IMO. Barron writes: "Devin, Bryan and Joerg: Could you guys stop with the looooong point by point comments/flames on each other? Please?" Consider it taken offline. Joerg, Bryan, if this is still worth beating into the ground, can we take it off line? Otherwise, I will start to think of my next controversial and flame inducing topic of conversation :-)~ Regards, Devin Cutler devinc@aol.com --------------------- From: yfcw29@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk Subject: Nature of the gods. Message-ID: <9407201057.aa04084@uk.ac.ed.castle> Date: 20 Jul 94 09:57:41 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5236 Just my two clacks worth in the recent debate about just how 'all seeing' Gloranthan gods realy are. Many of the posts talk about the Gloranthan deities as though they are very clearly defined self-aware personalities. But we know that the same god can be worshiped in very different aspects in different parts of Glorantha. To such an extent that it may not even appear to a casual observer that they are dealing with the same god. There was a debate about this in the daily a few months ago and someone came up with the 'Blue Boar/Storm Bull' heroquest to prove they are realy the same cult. It is even more apparent with some cults, such as the Hunter cults (Odayla, Foundchild, etc) and the various guises of Issaries such as the god of the silver feet (deceased). This is prevalent to such an extent that heresies in one temple are considered doctrine in others. For eaxmple, to what extent are Etyries and Issaries the same god? Priests of Etyries can worship successfuly in Issaries temples across occupied Sartar and in Pavis. I don't know exactly how far the exchangeability can go though. The same is true for Irripi Ontor priests, who share the Pavis Lankor Mhy temple with it's native priesthood. Both the Irripi Ontor and Etyries cults were born directly from their lightbringer parent cults, so to what extent are they worshiping the same gods? This is important because doctrine for Etyries worshipers may be considered blasphemy by Issaries. All this argues for far less personalised gods. I do not imagine Gloranthan deities as powerful spirits which oversee the workings of Glorantha, I think of them more as personifications and products of the processes of nature to which they are tied. I have great difficulty imagining a Gloranthan deity scanning a worshipers thoughts and memories for wrongdoing. I very much doubt whether the contents of a mortal mind would make very much sense to them. How can they understand the rational thoughts of a free thinking mortal mind when they are incapable those thought processes themselves. Think of the difficulty we have imagining and understanding the workings of the hero plane and the nature of heroquesting. Remember that the godplane is even more remote and unimaginable. The gods would have a similarly hard time understanding the mundane mechanics of temporal Glorantha. Time has changed things so much that the gods have no place there now. The possible exception to this is the Red Godess, she is much more in tune with mortal and temporal concerns. I rule that divine wrath is only visited on worshipers who subvert or defile cult rituals. Remember that almost all cult activities are ritual in nature and are thus within the understanding of the god, at least to some degree. It does not matter what the worshiper in thinking or plotting, the god is only interested in the success of the ritual since this is what benefits the god. It is the priests duty to police the flock and weed out the corrupt and impious. This is why priests can invoke the cult spirit of retribution. I have no problems with the idea that an ogre might infiltrate the cult of Humakt, as portrayed in a story in the RQ Companion (I forget the title). I do not even believe that Falticus need necesserily be illuminated. As for the Etyries worshipers at prayer in an Issaries temple, their cult rituals have been established by heroquest and are thus acceptable to the god in the context of their initiation rites. I believe they do worship an aspect of Issaries, but an aspect which only the Etyries initiation can reach. Feel free to disect this at your whim, I look forward to debating this and other issues with you at convulsion. See you there, Simon yfcw29@castle.ed.ac.uk. --------------------- From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK Subject: Yelorna Message-ID: <9407201051.AA11715@Sun.COM> Date: 20 Jul 94 10:52:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5237 Michelle asked about Yelorna role styles... My wife plays a Yelornan in a campaign I occassionally run (its been fairly infrequent since out son was born 7 months ago). Her character comes from a Pavis lowlife (entertainer) background so is not typical of Solar Yelornans. I would describe her as 50% Yelornan and 50% Pavisite, ie. not a very GOOD Yelornan, although she is fairly devout and supports the cult's ideals VERY STRONGLY. Despite this I plan to make it very difficult for her to progress up the cult heirarchy. In her second adventure she came across a dying Kralori and did the last rites for him. This got her in with the Kralori ambassidor (Rich Mercant type) in Pavis as it was one of his bodyguards actting as a messenger and she recovered, corpse, message and most importantly twin swords (soul). As the dying warrior had gifted her with the swords in return for her chopping down one of his attackers and rescuing the message the *Ambassidor* decided that she should be trained to avoid her dishonouring the swords. This training was done in a very oriental fashion and was very wide ranging. The master decides what she should be taught, so now the character speak Kralori quite well, knows how to behave politely, can use the Katana quite well, knows a limited amount of strange and snazzy moves such as arrow cutting (mildy heiretical for a Yelornan but the character does not see it like that). So with the aid of the GM this Yelornan has developed well off the beaten track. When she wishes to be trained by the Kralori she does not offer money but instead presents a gift and it is its artistic and esthetic value that influence the trainer (hence the player is very much in the dark). For a more orthodox Yelornan play her from a Solar background. Very modest, she would NEVER expose her arms and legs, although she reluctantly wears trews (under her armour skirts) to facilitate movement. She would tend to be fairly quite especially when Solar males are arround generally deferring to them, although she might quitely highlight things they had forgotten. Generally she would only become forceful when her ideals were threatened or when faced by cult enemies, then there could be quite a transformation. Mild mannered Clarrissa Kent turns into a hot- blooded, high strung, violent avenger. Special hatreds are Trolls, rapists, uncouth barbarians etc. Yelmalio gets sibling rivalry, Yelm gets deferential respect. Loose women (virtually any non-solar woman) are treated with contempt as brazen hussies! Solar Yelornans are women who desire to fight for their rights, but there is no need for this to lesssen the purity of their womanhood. Of course you could play a complete rebel froma Solar background who hates Solar men as totally bigotted Male Chauvanist Pigs. She would flout her bare suntanned arms and legs, challenge Yelmalions to duels, belittle their manhood and act like a total tearaway. Although I doubt that she would find it so easy to discard her cultures views on chastity engrained since early childhood (remember these apply to both males and females). Well there are some ideas: Lewis --------------------- From: jarec@cix.compulink.co.uk (Simon Basham) Subject: RQ Sales Message-ID: Date: 20 Jul 94 20:48:17 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5238 This is a topic that has come up before, how do we sell more copies of RQ. I think the problem lies in getting people INTO RQ. In my club I regularily get 25 people signing up for my RQ campaign when I advertise that I am going to be running another adventure but you try suggesting that anyone else buy a copy of the rules or run a game and they aren't interested. People these days have so many games to choose from they want play each once or twice before moving on to something else, usually the new set of rules that has just come into the local shop. I'm lucky, my local store stocks RQ but that's because me and a few other people in the town are long standing RQ junkies. For these people the idea of a campaign is as alien as an intelligent cheeseburger, RQ is considered to have to steep a learning curve. How do we fix this? I don't know, maybe we can put our heads together at Convulsion. Mentioning Convulsion see you there dudes, I look forward to playing some RQ rather than perpetual GMing. Time to go now people...till Friday.. JAREC "Is all we see or seem, but a dream within a dream" E A Poe --------------------- From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland) Subject: please delete the empty subject messages... Message-ID: <9407202232.AA27072@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM> Date: 20 Jul 94 23:32:10 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5239 I messed up with the latest digest issue. Please delete the messages with empty subject lines just sent. The properly formatted messages have now been sent... Henk Langeveld --------------------- From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu Subject: Re: Women Warriors Message-ID: <9407202205.AA08549@venus.phyast.pitt.edu.phyast.pitt.edu> Date: 20 Jul 94 22:05:23 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5240 Hi. Paul here. Having gone to the trouble of digging out ARAB HISTORIANS OF THE CRUSADES and posting on the topic of female armored warriors, I'd like to see a reply on this topic, especially from Sandy. -paul --------------------- From: strauss@hopper.itc.virginia.edu (John Strauss) Subject: Re: Yelorna Message-ID: <199407202256.AA30467@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU> Date: 20 Jul 94 14:56:12 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5241 > From: Michelle_Ringo@ed.gov (Michelle Ringo) > > YELORNA > > I am running a Yelornan based on the one and only RQ2 write up that > I have found. I am trying to give this character a personal stamp > that differentiates from my previous characters (a Chalana Arroy and > a Storm Bull). Any thoughts? > Hi, Michelle! How's tricks? (You know me as Henry Best.) Umm, it is hard to help you differentiate from your other PCs on a personality basis; I have never met them nor did you talk about them in this post. I do have some Yelornan ideas though, things you might play with. I have not read the Yelornan writeup in years, so bear with me if some of this is duped in the writeup. Yelorna is an outcast of sorts in the Yelm pantheon. I always thought of her as basically a younger tomboy sister of Yelmalio who ran away from home rather than enter into an arranged marriage. You can do a lot with this, adjusting the cult's abilities appropriately. Decide if Yelm has disowned his wayward daughter or if he is waiting for her return, etc. This can influence the amount of Sky power available. You can also decide that Yelorna swiped a few of dad's or big bro's things before splitting. Which may or may not give her some thief skills. You can also state that she was too proud to do that and made her own tools from the night sky. For interest over playability, I recommend this association: Yelm has disowned Yelorna but secretly wants her to return and accept a "proper" female role. Yelm has likewise ordered Yelmalio not to aid her; let her fail on her own and return. But add this twist: Yelorna is Yelmalio's favorite sibling. Sun dome temples should be Yelorna temples at night if need be. Yelmalio guards should look the other way if a Yelornan seeks entry at night. This gives you an Angry Young Woman cult, always out to prove itself. But with some associations with an established sky cult. I seem to remember that the cult used meteor showers as an elemental base for Sky missile skills. Consider making Yelorna's elemental ties ambiguous. Swipe some imagery from the greek Artemis. Focus on the bow instead of the arrow and you have a moon cult. This gets messy: try to play around with the idea that the moon should be silver instead of red, from the Yelornan point of view. Hmmm, I'm not sure I like that. In any case, some Moon imagery ought to come up. Even if you stick with shooting stars, doesn't the Lunar Empire have the Crater Makers? Those element ideas could be used to give Yelorna a "sister" cult in the Lunar pantheon. Sort of like Yanafal Tarnils and Humakt..... Errr, I sort of strayed from the idea of personalities.... I think you can do a lot with the AYW virgin huntress/warrior archetype. The stereotypical Yelornan would be nothing like the stereotypical Chalanna Arroy or Storm Bull. But, if you have already used that stereotype on another PC (maybe the SB), then you may have to thrash around to find something new. If you are playing around Prax/Pavis, you can have some fun with the whole AYM thing. Around Sun County and in the "yellow light" district in Pavis, there is plenty of patriarchal bigotry for you to rail against. But you can walk a few blocks down the street and find out that the Lunars and Orlanthi wish you would just shut up and be whatever you damn well please. Sure, Waha is sexist; but Storm Bull isn't particularly. Lankhor Mhy used to be sexist; but is trying to be fair, just put on the fake beard and publish. Orlanth Adventurous is decidedly non-sexist. There may be some comic possibilities if you have your character take her emancipation too seriously around cultures who take it for granted. But when she gets over that, you might have the basis of epic friendship with the folks who first accepted a runaway yelmalian girl for what she wanted to be vice what her parents wanted for her. John Strauss strauss@hopper.itc.virginia.edu --------------------- From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller) Subject: Betraying the Gods Message-ID: <01HEXUH5U99E9BVQQU@wharton.upenn.edu> Date: 20 Jul 94 14:04:38 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5242 Devin writes: > I imagine an insane person might be able to confuse a god, and > certainly someone who thought he was doing right would not emanate emotions > of betrayal etc. None of the folk who betrayed the gods ever thought they were acting without a *right* and *good* reason, else they wouldn't have done it. If all it takes to keep the god from spotting a deception is a conviction of right action and right thought then the gods' divinations must be at least as inaccurate as all Devin's foes have been arguing all along, and this whole argument turns out to be for naught. I for one am not surprised. whoah, +++++++++++++++++++++++23 Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu "Enough sound bites. Let's get to work." -- Ross Perot sound bite --------------------- From: guy.hoyle@chrysalis.org Subject: RQD WEDNESDAY Message-ID: <9407201827.0PXS403@chrysalis.org> Date: 20 Jul 94 16:27:49 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5243 Only received Part 2 of wednesday's Daily. Is there a problem? --------------------- From: ANDOVER@delphi.com Subject: Joerg & Devin & Gods Message-ID: <01HEUYB2KGUQ95RNA3@delphi.com> Date: 18 Jul 94 13:26:32 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5244 >In the great God debate I am closer to Joerg's position than to Devin's. But Joerg is overstating his position a bit (Maybe I'M a Lutheran, Devin is a Catholic and Joerg is a Calvinist!). Joerg is making the Gods too passive. I DO think that some points are pretty well established: the Gods can't even LOOK at Glorantha unless asked to by a worshipper. In the Gaumata's vision scenario, remember, Yelmalio only looked because of the wive's prayers. If a divination asks a question, the God will take a look. But Gods do not have "20-20 vision" and besides they are not very bright. So the 7-word answer rule reflects these facts. But Gods do have some choice in how to respond if asked to by a worshipper. Joerg's vision seems to be of God's as a giant vending machine: put in your money and you get the same result every time; I think of the Gods as more like slot machines: you aren't sure what you will get when you put your money in! In a way, both of our debaters reduce the mystery of Gods: Devin by making them too much big powerful intelligent npcs, and Joerg by making them too predictable. By me, they are mysterious: that's why we have rolls for D.I. instead of the GM judging whether the players are worthy of the Gods' attentions, or an automatic response. The rAndomness of the roll reflects the lack of knowledge that everyone, including the GM, has of the God's response!