From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 21 Jul 1994, part 1
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
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X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
---------------------
From: Urox@aol.com
Subject: Enough Already!
Message-ID: <9407200356.tn656054@aol.com>
Date: 20 Jul 94 07:56:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5234
Rob and Brent sez:
Date: 20 Jul 94 09:16:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5235
Devin Cutler here:
Nick writes:
"This is getting boring. You're trying to distort Greg's words to have them
say whatever you want them to. I doubt anyone is convinced. That Yelmic
example plainly means that the god Yelm does not know the *motivation* of a
Priest of Yelm who is acting on his behalf. Any other interpretation is
pure sophistry. If the Divine Thought Police work for your campaign, well
and good. But could you please take them away, and keep them there..."
I have already agreed to take this discussion off line Nick, so you needn't
worry about dislocating your jaw from over-yawning.
The passgae in WF12 is not clear IMO. The paragraph before talks specifically
about Orlanth, and the next paragraph mentioning the priest of Yelm only says
"the god". Since it is usual to say "his god" when referring to a priest's
god, I inferred that this passage was speaking about Orlanth not knowing the
motivations of a Yelm priest (which makes sense IMO). Chastize Greg for bad
writing if you want, but the passage is ambiguous IMO.
Barron writes:
"Devin, Bryan and Joerg: Could you guys stop with the looooong
point by point comments/flames on each other? Please?"
Consider it taken offline. Joerg, Bryan, if this is still worth beating into
the ground, can we take it off line? Otherwise, I will start to think of my
next controversial and flame inducing topic of conversation :-)~
Regards,
Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com
---------------------
From: yfcw29@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk
Subject: Nature of the gods.
Message-ID: <9407201057.aa04084@uk.ac.ed.castle>
Date: 20 Jul 94 09:57:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5236
Just my two clacks worth in the recent debate about just how 'all seeing'
Gloranthan gods realy are.
Many of the posts talk about the Gloranthan deities as though they are very
clearly defined self-aware personalities. But we know that the same god can be
worshiped in very different aspects in different parts of Glorantha. To such
an extent that it may not even appear to a casual observer that they are
dealing with the same god. There was a debate about this in the daily a few
months ago and someone came up with the 'Blue Boar/Storm Bull' heroquest to
prove they are realy the same cult. It is even more apparent with some cults,
such as the Hunter cults (Odayla, Foundchild, etc) and the various guises of
Issaries such as the god of the silver feet (deceased). This is prevalent to
such an extent that heresies in one temple are considered doctrine in others.
For eaxmple, to what extent are Etyries and Issaries the same god? Priests
of Etyries can worship successfuly in Issaries temples across occupied Sartar
and in Pavis. I don't know exactly how far the exchangeability can go though.
The same is true for Irripi Ontor priests, who share the Pavis Lankor Mhy
temple with it's native priesthood. Both the Irripi Ontor and Etyries cults
were born directly from their lightbringer parent cults, so to what extent
are they worshiping the same gods? This is important because doctrine for
Etyries worshipers may be considered blasphemy by Issaries.
All this argues for far less personalised gods. I do not imagine Gloranthan
deities as powerful spirits which oversee the workings of Glorantha, I think
of them more as personifications and products of the processes of nature to
which they are tied. I have great difficulty imagining a Gloranthan deity
scanning a worshipers thoughts and memories for wrongdoing. I very much
doubt whether the contents of a mortal mind would make very much sense to
them. How can they understand the rational thoughts of a free thinking mortal
mind when they are incapable those thought processes themselves.
Think of the difficulty we have imagining and understanding the workings of
the hero plane and the nature of heroquesting. Remember that the godplane
is even more remote and unimaginable. The gods would have a similarly hard
time understanding the mundane mechanics of temporal Glorantha. Time has
changed things so much that the gods have no place there now. The possible
exception to this is the Red Godess, she is much more in tune with mortal
and temporal concerns.
I rule that divine wrath is only visited on worshipers who subvert or defile
cult rituals. Remember that almost all cult activities are ritual in nature
and are thus within the understanding of the god, at least to some degree.
It does not matter what the worshiper in thinking or plotting, the god is
only interested in the success of the ritual since this is what benefits the
god. It is the priests duty to police the flock and weed out the corrupt and
impious. This is why priests can invoke the cult spirit of retribution.
I have no problems with the idea that an ogre might infiltrate the cult of
Humakt, as portrayed in a story in the RQ Companion (I forget the title).
I do not even believe that Falticus need necesserily be illuminated. As for
the Etyries worshipers at prayer in an Issaries temple, their cult rituals
have been established by heroquest and are thus acceptable to the god in the
context of their initiation rites. I believe they do worship an aspect of
Issaries, but an aspect which only the Etyries initiation can reach.
Feel free to disect this at your whim, I look forward to debating this and
other issues with you at convulsion. See you there,
Simon
yfcw29@castle.ed.ac.uk.
---------------------
From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Yelorna
Message-ID: <9407201051.AA11715@Sun.COM>
Date: 20 Jul 94 10:52:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5237
Michelle asked about Yelorna role styles...
My wife plays a Yelornan in a campaign I occassionally run (its been
fairly infrequent since out son was born 7 months ago). Her character comes
from a Pavis lowlife (entertainer) background so is not typical of Solar
Yelornans. I would describe her as 50% Yelornan and 50% Pavisite, ie. not
a very GOOD Yelornan, although she is fairly devout and supports the cult's
ideals VERY STRONGLY. Despite this I plan to make it very difficult for her
to progress up the cult heirarchy.
In her second adventure she came across a dying Kralori and did the
last rites for him. This got her in with the Kralori ambassidor (Rich Mercant
type) in Pavis as it was one of his bodyguards actting as a messenger and she
recovered, corpse, message and most importantly twin swords (soul). As the
dying warrior had gifted her with the swords in return for her chopping down
one of his attackers and rescuing the message the *Ambassidor* decided that
she should be trained to avoid her dishonouring the swords. This training
was done in a very oriental fashion and was very wide ranging. The master
decides what she should be taught, so now the character speak Kralori quite
well, knows how to behave politely, can use the Katana quite well, knows a
limited amount of strange and snazzy moves such as arrow cutting (mildy
heiretical for a Yelornan but the character does not see it like that).
So with the aid of the GM this Yelornan has developed well off the beaten
track. When she wishes to be trained by the Kralori she does not offer
money but instead presents a gift and it is its artistic and esthetic value
that influence the trainer (hence the player is very much in the dark).
For a more orthodox Yelornan play her from a Solar background.
Very modest, she would NEVER expose her arms and legs, although she
reluctantly wears trews (under her armour skirts) to facilitate movement.
She would tend to be fairly quite especially when Solar males are arround
generally deferring to them, although she might quitely highlight things
they had forgotten. Generally she would only become forceful when her
ideals were threatened or when faced by cult enemies, then there could be
quite a transformation. Mild mannered Clarrissa Kent turns into a hot-
blooded, high strung, violent avenger. Special hatreds are Trolls, rapists,
uncouth barbarians etc. Yelmalio gets sibling rivalry, Yelm gets deferential
respect. Loose women (virtually any non-solar woman) are treated with
contempt as brazen hussies! Solar Yelornans are women who desire to fight
for their rights, but there is no need for this to lesssen the purity of
their womanhood.
Of course you could play a complete rebel froma Solar background who
hates Solar men as totally bigotted Male Chauvanist Pigs. She would flout
her bare suntanned arms and legs, challenge Yelmalions to duels, belittle
their manhood and act like a total tearaway. Although I doubt that she
would find it so easy to discard her cultures views on chastity engrained
since early childhood (remember these apply to both males and females).
Well there are some ideas:
Lewis
---------------------
From: jarec@cix.compulink.co.uk (Simon Basham)
Subject: RQ Sales
Message-ID:
Date: 20 Jul 94 20:48:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5238
This is a topic that has come up before, how do we sell more copies of RQ.
I think the problem lies in getting people INTO RQ. In my club I
regularily get 25 people signing up for my RQ campaign when I advertise
that I am going to be running another adventure but you try suggesting
that anyone else buy a copy of the rules or run a game and they aren't
interested.
People these days have so many games to choose from they want play each
once or twice before moving on to something else, usually the new set of
rules that has just come into the local shop. I'm lucky, my local store
stocks RQ but that's because me and a few other people in the town are
long
standing RQ junkies. For these people the idea of a campaign is as alien
as an intelligent cheeseburger, RQ is considered to have to steep a
learning curve.
How do we fix this?
I don't know, maybe we can put our heads together at Convulsion.
Mentioning Convulsion see you there dudes, I look forward to playing some
RQ rather than perpetual GMing. Time to go now people...till Friday..
JAREC
"Is all we see or seem, but a dream within a dream"
E A Poe
---------------------
From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: please delete the empty subject messages...
Message-ID: <9407202232.AA27072@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 20 Jul 94 23:32:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5239
I messed up with the latest digest issue.
Please delete the messages with empty
subject lines just sent.
The properly formatted messages have
now been sent...
Henk Langeveld
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: Women Warriors
Message-ID: <9407202205.AA08549@venus.phyast.pitt.edu.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 20 Jul 94 22:05:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5240
Hi. Paul here.
Having gone to the trouble of digging out ARAB HISTORIANS OF THE CRUSADES
and posting on the topic of female armored warriors, I'd like to see a reply
on this topic, especially from Sandy.
-paul
---------------------
From: strauss@hopper.itc.virginia.edu (John Strauss)
Subject: Re: Yelorna
Message-ID: <199407202256.AA30467@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU>
Date: 20 Jul 94 14:56:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5241
> From: Michelle_Ringo@ed.gov (Michelle Ringo)
>
> YELORNA
>
> I am running a Yelornan based on the one and only RQ2 write up that
> I have found. I am trying to give this character a personal stamp
> that differentiates from my previous characters (a Chalana Arroy and
> a Storm Bull). Any thoughts?
>
Hi, Michelle! How's tricks? (You know me as Henry Best.)
Umm, it is hard to help you differentiate from your other PCs
on a personality basis; I have never met them nor did you
talk about them in this post.
I do have some Yelornan ideas though, things you might play
with. I have not read the Yelornan writeup in years, so bear
with me if some of this is duped in the writeup.
Yelorna is an outcast of sorts in the Yelm pantheon. I always
thought of her as basically a younger tomboy sister of Yelmalio who
ran away from home rather than enter into an arranged marriage.
You can do a lot with this, adjusting the cult's abilities
appropriately.
Decide if Yelm has disowned his wayward daughter or if he is
waiting for her return, etc. This can influence the amount of
Sky power available. You can also decide that Yelorna swiped a
few of dad's or big bro's things before splitting. Which may or
may not give her some thief skills. You can also state that she
was too proud to do that and made her own tools from the night
sky.
For interest over playability, I recommend this association:
Yelm has disowned Yelorna but secretly wants her to return and
accept a "proper" female role. Yelm has likewise ordered
Yelmalio not to aid her; let her fail on her own and return.
But add this twist: Yelorna is Yelmalio's favorite sibling.
Sun dome temples should be Yelorna temples at night if need be.
Yelmalio guards should look the other way if a Yelornan seeks
entry at night.
This gives you an Angry Young Woman cult, always out to prove
itself. But with some associations with an established sky cult.
I seem to remember that the cult used meteor showers as an
elemental base for Sky missile skills. Consider making
Yelorna's elemental ties ambiguous. Swipe some imagery from the
greek Artemis. Focus on the bow instead of the arrow and you
have a moon cult.
This gets messy: try to play around with the idea that the moon
should be silver instead of red, from the Yelornan point of
view.
Hmmm, I'm not sure I like that. In any case, some Moon imagery
ought to come up. Even if you stick with shooting stars,
doesn't the Lunar Empire have the Crater Makers?
Those element ideas could be used to give Yelorna a "sister"
cult in the Lunar pantheon. Sort of like Yanafal Tarnils and
Humakt.....
Errr, I sort of strayed from the idea of personalities....
I think you can do a lot with the AYW virgin huntress/warrior
archetype. The stereotypical Yelornan would be nothing like the
stereotypical Chalanna Arroy or Storm Bull. But, if you have
already used that stereotype on another PC (maybe the SB), then
you may have to thrash around to find something new.
If you are playing around Prax/Pavis, you can have some fun
with the whole AYM thing. Around Sun County and in the "yellow
light" district in Pavis, there is plenty of patriarchal
bigotry for you to rail against. But you can walk a few blocks
down the street and find out that the Lunars and Orlanthi wish
you would just shut up and be whatever you damn well please.
Sure, Waha is sexist; but Storm Bull isn't particularly.
Lankhor Mhy used to be sexist; but is trying to be fair, just
put on the fake beard and publish. Orlanth Adventurous is
decidedly non-sexist. There may be some comic possibilities if
you have your character take her emancipation too seriously
around cultures who take it for granted. But when she gets over
that, you might have the basis of epic friendship with the
folks who first accepted a runaway yelmalian girl for what she
wanted to be vice what her parents wanted for her.
John Strauss
strauss@hopper.itc.virginia.edu
---------------------
From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller)
Subject: Betraying the Gods
Message-ID: <01HEXUH5U99E9BVQQU@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 20 Jul 94 14:04:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5242
Devin writes:
> I imagine an insane person might be able to confuse a god, and
> certainly someone who thought he was doing right would not emanate emotions
> of betrayal etc.
None of the folk who betrayed the gods ever thought they were acting
without a *right* and *good* reason, else they wouldn't have done it.
If all it takes to keep the god from spotting a deception is a
conviction of right action and right thought then the gods'
divinations must be at least as inaccurate as all Devin's foes have
been arguing all along, and this whole argument turns out to be for
naught. I for one am not surprised.
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
"Enough sound bites. Let's get to work." -- Ross Perot sound bite
---------------------
From: guy.hoyle@chrysalis.org
Subject: RQD WEDNESDAY
Message-ID: <9407201827.0PXS403@chrysalis.org>
Date: 20 Jul 94 16:27:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5243
Only received Part 2 of wednesday's Daily. Is there a problem?
---------------------
From: ANDOVER@delphi.com
Subject: Joerg & Devin & Gods
Message-ID: <01HEUYB2KGUQ95RNA3@delphi.com>
Date: 18 Jul 94 13:26:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5244
>In the great God debate I am closer to Joerg's position than to Devin's.
But Joerg is overstating his position a bit (Maybe I'M a Lutheran, Devin is
a Catholic and Joerg is a Calvinist!). Joerg is making the Gods too passive.
I DO think that some points are pretty well established: the Gods can't
even LOOK at Glorantha unless asked to by a worshipper. In the Gaumata's
vision scenario, remember, Yelmalio only looked because of the wive's
prayers. If a divination asks a question, the God will take a look. But
Gods do not have "20-20 vision" and besides they are not very bright. So
the 7-word answer rule reflects these facts. But Gods do have some choice
in how to respond if asked to by a worshipper. Joerg's vision seems to
be of God's as a giant vending machine: put in your money and you get the
same result every time; I think of the Gods as more like slot machines:
you aren't sure what you will get when you put your money in! In a way,
both of our debaters reduce the mystery of Gods: Devin by making them too
much big powerful intelligent npcs, and Joerg by making them too predictable.
By me, they are mysterious: that's why we have rolls for D.I. instead of
the GM judging whether the players are worthy of the Gods' attentions, or
an automatic response. The rAndomness of the roll reflects the lack of
knowledge that everyone, including the GM, has of the God's response!