From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 22 Jul 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
---------------------
From: bchugg@leland.stanford.edu (Barron Chugg)
Subject: It's sorta on gods, but only sorta...
Message-ID: <199407212303.QAA06793@popserver.Stanford.EDU>
Date: 21 Jul 94 08:05:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5256
Hello All.
Well, with our British collegues away at Convulsion, now is our chance to
retake the daily! No more "RQ sells much better over here." No more
"Well, I got my TotRM just today." Jealous? Me? Well, maybe a little.
At least I'm only 20 minutes from RQ-CON2...:-)
---------------
Devin (after gaining many points for politeness):
>Barron writes:
>
>"Devin, Bryan and Joerg: Could you guys stop with the looooong
> point by point comments/flames on each other? Please?"
>
>Consider it taken offline. Joerg, Bryan, if this is still worth beating into
>the ground, can we take it off line? Otherwise, I will start to think of my
>next controversial and flame inducing topic of conversation :-)~
Thanks, consider this greatly appreciated.
-----------------
So, having just thanked someone for taking a discussion of gods off line,
in the rest of this post I'm gonna be commenting on various "what are gods"
questions.
-----------------
Simon:
> Priests
>of Etyries can worship successfuly in Issaries temples across occupied Sartar
>and in Pavis.
Where is this mentioned? I don't doubt you at all, I'd just like to see
the specifics. Anyway, it fits with some interesting ideas, see below.
> Both the Irripi Ontor and Etyries cults
>were born directly from their lightbringer parent cults, so to what extent
>are they worshiping the same gods?
This would tend to explain why Orlanth is so opposed to the RG and the
other cults are less so. Orlanth is in danger of being replaced, while the
other LBs will just have to change statues. Very devious...
> This is important because doctrine for
>Etyries worshipers may be considered blasphemy by Issaries.
I think that should be "considered blasphemy by Issaries cults in the
DL/Prax area." This could be just another exaample of a regional variation
(an idea I am becoming more and more enamored of). The Pelorian idea of
"good trade" may be quite different from the Manirian.
-----------------------
Cullen:
>Barron Chugg in X-RQ-ID: 5194
>B> The problem is that I (and I think many others) have is that we are
>B> conditioned based on our various studies of history in many areas.
>B> So we go in with preconcieved ideas as to what is accurate.
>
>Actually, in my impression, inequality between the sexes only really got
>going after the industrial revolution. The man was now out there
>working and the woman stayed at home and cared for the kids. Previously
>the husband and wife were a team on the farm/cottage industry, with the
>wife doing much of the work. At least I've read a couple of
>articles/books that reach this conclusion.
If you could reference me to a few of those books I'd appreciate it. In
fact, I agree with you wrt peasants. The relationship was more of a team
than a heirarchy. But, when I look at even slightly higher classes the
seperation becomes more and more explicit. Then add in other cultures and
there is further disparity (not all cultures, mind you, but a majority).
Given a choice I'd like to have your perspective, makes history less
depressing (and more playable...).
(Quoting Jon Green)
>J> 1. Unless an individual invites a God to inspect their intentions
>J> their "soul" in ritual), the mind of any character is opaque ...
>
>I would tend to rule that even in this case the god would be limited by
>its permanent nature. The god can't understand humans because humans
>are in time... The relationship with the god will be scrutinized in
>this case but that is the only thing the god can micromanage.
Well, does the god really look, or does the worshipper only think the god
is looking? I wouldn't think people with guilty consciences would be
"opening themselces" anyway. So, the person that opens themself with a
clear conscience is rewarded with a feeling of well being (a natural result
of the act), while a person with lower motives will likely feel
guilty/unworthy. Or, to go to a bit more mystical level, the opening is
the surrendering to the runepath of the god. If you are "in tune" with the
god, then the path is much easier. If you are "out of tune" then you are
in for a bumpy ride. Now, worshippers will interpret these experiences
based on their culture. If you have the bumpy ride you will probably feel
"unworthy" or "bad", you may even manage to summon an Impest or two. If
you are "filled by the glory of the god" (that is, if you complete the
RPath easily) you will feel that you are "doing the right thing". Now, the
cynical follower will know that the feelng is not related to the will of
the god and is merely a reflection of the ritual. He is much less likely
to suffer any guilt or SoRs. Reasonable?
> With
>RLvls the god is monitering constantly so for the HHD everybody goes up
>a step in godly monitering?
Or, the RLvls are more often on these RPaths and have many more
opportunities to "check their alignment". On the HHD, the ritual is much
more involved and powerful, thus minor flaws can be magnified.
-----------------------
Quick comment on missing HDs: The relationship between the god and
worshipper is one that requires maintainance. The follower must walk and
rewalk the paths of the god in order to keep his connection. For an
initiate, once a season is sufficient for minimum upkeep and for a LM, once
a year (I think those are the right numbers, I don't have any references
here). For RLvls much more time is required (90% or 50%), frequent prayers
and more intimate involvement in cult rituals.
Quick idea on advancement: First off I have adopted the HHD spell renewal
for initiates. Now, imagine that as an initiate advances their renewal
becomes easier (eg. from HHD to SHD). This is because they are getting
into closer contact with their deity. After the SHD, the next step would
be to become an Acolyte or a RLvl. I just like the idea of smearing out
cult levels, so that the steps are smoother. That way not _all_ PC
initiates are looking to RLvl as their next advancement. In fact, this SHD
renewal might be a sort of "RLvl in training" step. Like a Brown or Green
belt training with the Black belts.
----------------------
We now return to our Cullen Post, already in progress:
>J> Not necessarily; when an ogre worships, the ogre's POW is filtered of
>J> the worshipper's ogre nature. But I *love* the idea of _malicious_
>
>This has some kind of cleansing effect? Why?
That's easy, the nature of the ogre is to deceive. They live by fitting
into the local culture and destroying it from within. In my view, the ogre
who worships a "lawful" deity is following the Ogre Path by way of that
deity. That's why they don't get screwed by SoR or initiation tests.
>J> mass worship of an enemy God by antagonistic and powerful forces
>J> seeking to poison or subvert the God!
>
>What I meant was: Maybe ogres are a chaos plot to do just that. Maybe
>the POW of ogres is tainted in such a way that the gods can't detect it,
>but in such a way that it does change them (weakens them?).
I'd say that the god is not weakened, but rather warped. Moved more
towards disorder. Here's a strange suggestion, maybe the power you send is
fitted to a rune. You send Orlanth Wind/Motion/Mastery, Humakt
Death/Truth. This reinforces the god's aspect. (Note: I am using the word
rune to imply the greater concept they relate to, so put down those
GL-o-Meters.) So the ogre sends power that smells like
Wind/Motion/Mastery, but is in fact, Death/Disorder (and maybe) Chaos.
Pretty sneaky, huh?
>____________________________
>Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 5222
>N> Is there some difference between this and hostile HeroQuesting?
>
>Well in what I was suggesting it is a slow subtle poisoning of the god
>with the ogre's chaos...
The difference is that all you need for the worship method is a bunch of
deluded worshippers, not heroquesters. Granted, the HQ method is faster,
more powerful and more efficient, but it takes more resources. In fact, I
don't think ogres are necessary. Just take a negative aspect of the god,
make sure your rituals are still acceptable and you can start to emphasis
that aspect. Like in Peloria you could have a cult of Orlanth-Immature,
Violent Rebel. If you get enough people doing the dance you might even be
able to influence other cults.
>_____________________________
>Barron Chugg in X-RQ-ID: 5229
>
>B> Another thought, do people think that the Glorantha of today is a
>B> lower magic world than it was in the RQ2 era?
> .......
>B> What do other people think,
>B> are we moving in the direction of mundanity?
>
>One of the things I liked about Glorantha was that the fact that there
>was pervasive magic made the cultures operate differently from standard
>European models. This struck me as not being the case in most fantasy
>worlds. In them the magic didn't seem to have any effect whatsoever on
>the social structures.
>
>I do feel that something has been lost through copying too much from
>Earth cultures. This has lead to (IMO) cultures that work too much like
>Earth cultures despite the magic. Which has lead to the magic being
>de-emphasized.
We still get the magic in the myth and stories, but it does seem less a
part of everyday life.
>I'm not positing overly involved gods here, i just want the fact that
>spirit and divine magic is available to have some sort of effect on the
>way the cultures work. The few notes on wounds and the like in the
>intro to the the Glorantha Book (G:CotHW) have not (IMO) been worked
>into the basis of the cultures as presented.
One of the ways I try to explain magic in Glorantha to players is with a
few, concrete examples. Like the Sartarite boy who cuts his leg while
hunting. He goes home to mom (the good Ernaldan) and she says a few words
and makes a few gestures and viola, the wound is healed. Or the "wood
cutting" song the his father sings before work (bladesharp, or strength).
The shepard who knows the song of fleet running to catch errant sheep
(mobility). The fire starting words for getting the camp fire going
quickly (ignite). The list can go on, and these are just the spirit magic.
How about the _need_ for Bless Crops in Genertela? Or the White Woman who
cures diesease with a touch? Or, to quote loosely from Dorastor, the
Orlanthi Rune Lords flying over an area to make an inspection? All these
are everyday life uses of magic and should be emphasised to show why
Glorantha is such a magical place. In the players' book for G:CotHW, it
asks (again, from memory) "DO you believe that your uncle _really_ killed a
bear with his fists?" Sure, why not? Strength, Ironhand, Protection.
Whap, thump, blammo!
In fact, see my comments about preconditioning and history above. IMHO,
this is just another example.
----
_Not_ going to Convulsion...:-(
Barron
---------------------
From: RobMH@aol.com
Subject: Re: Erich Schmidt's World
Message-ID: <9407210324.tn705813@aol.com>
Date: 21 Jul 94 07:24:42 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5251
Erich,
I enjoyed your view. Colloquial-tongued yes, also a quite satisfactory
accounting of the gods' use of their free time. And for the record, much
more pleasantly readable than the current sling debate taking place between
Devin and Co.. As Erich's post demonstrates for the umpteenth time, there's
more than one way to look at Glorantha; arguing the Exact Specifications of
Gloranthan divinity makes about as much nonsense as real world religious
arguments.
--Rob Heinsoo
---------------------
From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller)
Subject: Written Western
Message-ID: <01HEYQEMUDR69BVT4S@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 21 Jul 94 05:17:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5252
Briefly, I agree with Dave Cake et al that the descriptions
of Western writing in the G:CotHW fit an ideographic writing
system much better than a language of learning (Latin) system.
But when I expressed this opinion to Oliver Jovanovic in the
early days of the RQ4 playtest he said that "someone" had
already decided that Western was a syllabic or alphabetic
script, and that the only Genertelan ideographic system
was the Kralorelan one. I don't know who that "someone" was,
but I do know that I'd prefer if Western/Brithini were ideographic
since it would make the west of Genertela less of a pseudo-
medieval europe than it is right now.
-- Loren
---------------------
From: elias_kadri1@cl_63smtp_gw.chinalake.navy.mil (Elias Kadri)
Subject: Firshala (& heroquests)
Message-ID: <9407211700.AA13419@Sun.COM>
Date: 21 Jul 94 01:45:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5253
Subject:Firshala (& heroquests)
Hello, Folks!
Somebody was asking about Firshala. I have been fortunate
enought to run into her twice, the first time as GM, the
second as player. In my campaign, the PCs were Orlanthi from
Sartar, and they wanted to get her inducted into the
Lightbringer pantheon. In those days I was completely
clueless about heroquesting (I'm still mostly clueless about
it today, actually!) and in retrospect I would say I made
quite a botch of the whole endeavor.
Much more recently, I joined a campaign where the characters
had previously met Firshala on Griffin Island, and started up
quite a substantial cult to her there (care to expand,
Dave?). Before too long we got involved in a heroquest to
steal the Fire rune from Lodril for Firshala's benefit. By
this time, we had some idea of what a heroquest was, but I
still don't think that it was well done.
Which leads me to ask: Does anyone have or know of any good
rules for heroquests? Something that would allow a scenario
to be constructed and played? I seem to keep running into
the problem of characters outgrowing the usual challenges,
and short of sending ever-increasing numbers of bad guys
after them, the only alternative seems to be to retire the
character. Any suggestions?
Elias
---------------------
From: elias_kadri1@cl_63smtp_gw.chinalake.navy.mil (Elias Kadri)
Subject: Help Keep Glorantha Wonderf
Message-ID: <9407211923.AA20107@Sun.COM>
Date: 21 Jul 94 04:21:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5254
Subject:Help Keep Glorantha Wonderful!
Hello Again
Barron Asks:
> Another thought, do people think that the Glorantha of
> today is a lower magic world than it was in the RQ2 era?
> You know, back when gods were real gods and magic was real
> magic. Now everything is so well defined it is becoming
> almost mundane or pedestrian. I think this is a shame.
> For me the Argrath Saga in KoS is as much a record of fact
> as an excercise in florid language. What drew me to
> Glorantha in the first place was the wonder of the place.
> The image on the cover of RQ Companion for example. What
> do other people think, are we moving in the direction of
> mundanity?
I agree with you (I keep doing that to you. I do
apologize...). I haven't been able to get hold of KoS yet,
but from what I've been reading here, it looks like that work
should get much of the blame.
I see Glorantha as a place where amazing, incomprehensible
things happen. Great visions appear in the sky because of
events far away. The Juggernaut rolls across the the world,
destroying all in its path. Islands float away into strange,
unknown oceans. The ghosts of long-dead dragonewts wield
mystic powers in pursuit of unguessable goals. I could go on
and on and on...
Because we're game players, we tend to make rules for what
can and can't happen in our games. Maybe we need to think of
those as approximations only (I don't much care whether
they're zeroth or first order). In other places, under other
circumstances, different rules apply. If we insist that
everything that happens has to make sense under the rules, we
stand to miss out on a lot.
Elias
---------------------
From: vladt@interaccess.com (Kevin Rose)
Subject: Yelorna
Message-ID:
Date: 21 Jul 94 10:46:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5255
Michelle: Yelorna
When I was running a Pavis based campaign I felt that there was almost
no similarites between the average stormbull, CA and Yelornan. Most
Yelornans are vastly more agressive than CA, but much more controlled than SB.
Yelornans are required to be significantly more "well behaved" than either,
as no-one really cares whether the SB or CA types do on their free time. If
they go out, get drunk, and end up in a different bed every night, it's OK.
The Yelorna cult does care a lot about what their member do with their free
time. Propriety is required. Drunkeness in general is disaproved. Public
drunkeness is not tolerated. Blatent public displays of affection for
non-relatives is not tolerated. Repeat offenders are whipped at the temple.
The unicorns riders are required to be completely chaste, but at least half
the rest had some sort of long term, low key relationship with someone
(mostly male, but not all.). The leadership requires decorum, restraint and
an absence of public displays of affection, but they will arrange quarters
so that initiates who are more than just friends can quietly live together.
While SB tend to have a tendency to get into brawls, Yelornan initiates who
become involved often in brawls will be whipped publicly by the leadership
as it reflects very poorly on the cult. A fair fight in a good cause is
another matter entirely.
Yelornana's cult is a cult of disciplined warriors. They are more
individualistic than Yelmalio cultists. The cult requires that the
membership avoid public nudity and agressive displays of bare flesh, but
they are not otherwise restricted in their dress. All wear clothes that
allow them to fight. Most wear comfortable clothes that are not
particularly concealing of the fact that they are young women in very good
shape. Some wear Yelmalio type clothes. Others wear skin tight leather
pants and thin, snug blouses. All will almost always be armed.
Due to the current state of general hostility between Yelorna and Jotaran
the Chief administrator, it is really a bad idea for Yelorans to do things
that will cause them to attract the attention of the guard. Bad things have
"Accidentally" happened "due to bureaucratic error" to Yelornans in jail.
Kevin Rose
---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: spell
Message-ID: <199407220111.AA00436@radiomail.net>
Date: 22 Jul 94 01:11:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5257
David Cake said
>Actually, it was my impression that at the beginnings of mass literacy, the
>written form was closer to what people actually said than it is today, as
>spelling was less formalised and more phonetic.
In English, at least, the spelling was frozen with the invention of
printing and the dictionary. The language, meanwhile, merrily continued to
evolve. Words like "knife" aren't spelled that way capriciously, the
and were once sounded.
---------------------
From: garydj@ditard.dit.gov.au
Subject: Yelornans
Message-ID: <9406227749.AA774914765@ditard.dit.gov.au>
Date: 22 Jul 94 13:06:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5258
Michelle Ringo asked for some ideas about playing a Yelornan.
I see Yelorna as providing an outlet for women in Solar cultures who
despise the veiled, subordinate role expected by their society. To
most people in places like Sun County, finding out your daughter has
joined Yelorna is like a RW upper middle class family finding out
their daughter has just joined a bikie gang. So I see the typical
Yelornan being as a wild, young tearaway. She would break the social
and cultural mores of her community to show the contempt in which she
holds such values. As such, I think Yelorna temples are exiled to
the fringes of Solar society.
In Pavis, the Yelornans have been forced into the Rubble. They melt
down Lunar silver coins to mint their own (I think they call these
coins "silvers") and regularly brawl with Storm Bulls in some of the
seedier bars in Pavis. They are also renowned men haters. As a
result, they have numerous enemies and few friends. I expect they
would get along quite well with Babeester Gor cultists.
I think Yelorna's relations with the Yelmalio cult would be uneasy to
say the least. However, I imagine Yelorna and Yelmalio share numerous
myths. I expect these include stories of where each saved the other's
life. So, I imagine a Yelornan would have a vital role to play
in some Yelmalio ceremonies. No doubt, much to the chagrin and
disgust of orthodox Yelmalions.
Unlike Yelmalio, Yelorna acquired the power of Death from the
elves and I believe her myths would include defending the stagnant
forests alongside of High King Elf, Yelmalio and Arroin against chaos
and trolls. From memory (I don't have my RQ stuff with me), Yelorna
is the Goddess of Starlight (or something like that). She may share
myths with Polestar or some of the other more warlike Solar deities.
Maybe Yelornans believe the Red Moon is also stealing their Goddess's
powers and so maybe they see common cause with the Orlanthi?
I agree with some of Lewis's ideas:
"Of course you could play a complete rebel from a Solar background who
hates Solar men as totally bigoted Male Chauvinist Pigs. She would
flout her bare suntanned arms and legs, challenge Yelmalions to duels,
belittle their manhood and act like a total tearaway."
However, I think Yelornans are socially unacceptable to most people in
solar cultures. They would despise chastity just as they despise all
aspects of the subordinate role of women in such cultures. However,
as man haters, they would also probably despise the freer sexuality of
the Orlanthi and the Lunars. I like John Strauss' ideas on how the
Orlanthi and the Lunars would react to Yelornans "just shut up and be
whatever you damn well please."
As a player or GM, I would want to work out what the Yelornan
character's relations are with her family and her community. Has she
been cut off and disowned, has she cut off and disowned herself or
does she maintain some tenuous contact with some of her family? What
are her feelings about being disowned? Why did she decide to join
Yelorna anyway? Her decision would have been taken in the face of
strong opposition from her family and her community. She must have
powerful reasons for her choice and have formidable will power. Maybe
like Maguera Furioso (did I spell that right?) in a recent story (BTW
a real gem), a traumatic experience in her youth has made your
character violent, bitter and hostile to her family and community and
to all men. Maybe this would be her "edge" like it was Maguera's.
Just some ideas.
Gary James
---------------------