From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 03 Aug 1994, part 1
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk
X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Personal Dayzatar
Message-ID: <9408020912.AA15598@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 2 Aug 94 09:12:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5407
Sandy does Take Three (plus?) on joining Dayzatar:
> Okay. First off, you have to be a Chief Priest or High Priest, not
> just any old priest. That limits the accessibility somewhat. No
> acolytes. No ordinary old priests.
Makes more sense. At least as a degenerate 3rd ageism, etc. I still
cleave to the belief that the source of the cyclic rebirth myth must surely
coincide with a historical period when one really was "born" into the
Dayzatar, in some sense. Assuming we believe this myth as written...
> Second, not just any solar cult will do. Lodril won't, for
> one. Yelmalio is certainly okay, as is Yelm.
I bet Yelmalio very often isn't. After all, who else are these Dara
Happan Arch Conservatives who don't recoignise Y.io as the sun of Yelm,
if not Dayzatari? Now Antirius would be a shoe-in...
> >One could get hung up on terminology all day, but it seems very
> >likely to me that most Vinga worship occurs in temples to Orlanth,
> >at shrines to Herself. Whether this makes her a "subcult" or not is
> >a matter of interpretation, mainly, I think.
> I think that subcult is a fairly specific term in Glorantha,
> and that it refers to cults that are entirely subsumed by another
> cult.
The term subcult is used variously to mean a) the cult of an aspect of a
god; b) a particular "stage" in a cult, and c) a "subservient" cult.
All three are doubtless Godlearnerisms, anyhow. ;-) (And overlap, to
some extent, anyway.)
> Greg even used the term "Orlanth Adventuress" to describe
> Vinga's subcult, which makes it even more clear what its part in
> society represents.
This isn't very different from saying "Issaries is Orlanth Goodvoice",
though. I'd say that Vinga was in the fuzzy area where it was _usually_
"just a subcult", but occassionally, or at least potentially, is worshipped
separately. Not unlike Barntar or Mastakos, I'd say. But it's not really
an important distinction, in my view.
> Actually, in Greg's early writings the westerners were good
> guys. And the Rokari/Hrestoli split wasn't explicit. I think that
> part of the West Are Bad influence is Greg's reaction against his
> earlier styles of thinking and writing.
These writings are mostly about Loskalm, though, which Greg has utterly
hardly a single negative word about, anywhere. It's only we Evil
Revisionists who say nasty things about these guys...
> re: disestablishmentarianism
> I wasn't going to gloat over my use of this word, but too
> many people praised me for it in the daily, so I will proudly accept
> my title of "Most Obnoxious Pedant". Thank you, all.
Nonsense! This title is Mine By Right, not least because of my Critical
Quibble with your usage of the above term! ;-)
Alex.
---------------------
From: jensmh@sdri.ubc.ca (Jens Haeusser)
Subject: Seven Mothers
Message-ID: <-143632529718019730@sdri.ubc.ca>
Date: 1 Aug 94 19:14:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5408
After wracking my brain for several hours, I could only come up with six of
the seven mothers. The six I remembered were:
Danfive Xaron, tortured outlaw, last hope of dregs of society for redemption
Deezola, Mistress of Earth Magic
Irripi Ontor, Lhankor Mhy ala Red Goddess
Jakaleel the Witch, Annila/Subere ala Red Goddess
Teelo Norri, unknowing participant, provider of the poor
Yanfal Tarnils, Humakt ala Red Goddess
If anyone could add the seventh (or clarify any of my misconception on the
first six =) I'd be very appreciative.
Jens, TTGG.
---------------------
From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: Seven Mothers
Message-ID: <9408021144.AA18170@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 2 Aug 94 12:44:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5409
>If anyone could add the seventh (or clarify any of my misconception on the
>first six =) I'd be very appreciative.
> Jens, TTGG.
"She who Waits..."
--
Henk | Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
oK[] | Single Point of Change, Multiple Points of Reference
---------------------
From: klaus@diku.dk
Subject: Tapping
Message-ID: <199408021145.AA14835@rimfaxe.diku.dk>
Date: 2 Aug 94 15:45:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5410
sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) writes:
>>How about tapping animals? Is that evil? Or rather, why shouldn't
>>Nikolos learn a tap spell, if he intends to use it only on animals?
> Because it's cruel and evil to Tap animals, too, just like it
>would be to skin animals alive.
But cruelty to animals is a modern concept. You may of course
claim that this is considered wrong in the fictional Glorantha,
but why would Nikolas of our own past think twice about skinning
an animal alive?
Klaus O K
---------------------
From: raphael@research.canon.oz.au (Andrew Raphael)
Subject: Mudshark? (River of Cradles)
Message-ID: <199408021414.AA12857@mama.research.canon.oz.au>
Date: 3 Aug 94 10:14:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5411
Excuse my ignorance, but what is a mudshark, & what does it look like?
Is a Gloranthan analogue of an Earth animal, say, a crocodile?
--
Andrew Raphael
"She's probably not what she seems, though she tries"
---------------------
From: ROBERTSON@delphi.intel.com (Roderick Robertson)
Subject: Magical Battelfield coordination
Message-ID: <6F54C0356001252C@delphi.intel.com>
Date: 2 Aug 94 17:14:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5412
Brian Forester writes:
> I doubt the level of coordination could be very much
>higher than "Hit the guy that is in front of you." This
>level of coordination would still clear the field as
>effectively as grapshot does. I just wanted to be sure that
>you weren't implying that a 100 man unit could target an
>enemy unit of 100 strong on a one for one basis (barring
>the use of magic to ensure this kind of coordination).
> A unit using such powerful magic would also
>have to be highly trained in close order drills to
>effectively use the magic. It seems that this would
>be the main limiting factor to the effective use
>of such units in battle.
Remember that a "Magical" unit *will* have magical means to
coordinate spellcasting. Plenty of Detect and Mindlink-type spells, as
well as (possibly) allied spirits in birds or discorporate spirits,
etc. This can provide an officer with better intelligence and better
command control than our current electronic means. Yes, such a unit
would be rare, but I'm sure that there are a few in the Lunar
colleges, and maybe even in Argrath's makeshift units.
Add in some spell/ability to target spells through one person, and
you've got the equivalent of off-board artillery, able to reach the
entire battlefield and eliminate whole units. Sort of a miniature
version of the Cratermakers or Cragspider's Pillar.
Off course, the POW expediture of these units is pretty severe, at
3 points each casting. Nastier things would be to cast Berserk (or just
fanaticism) at a unit being held behind the line in reserve...
Even with "Hit the guy in front of you" orders, a rolling barrage
of Sunspears/Thunderbolts could work much like a Carracol (sp?).
after casting your sunspear, you move back in the ranks and the person
behind you comes forward to cast *his* spell, moving back in the ranks
to let the third rank through... Or you could use ripple volleys,
casting you spell one SR after the man on your left. Or volley by
company... Yes, they take discipline, but so do massed archey volleys,
or using pikes.
Regular units (Sun Domers, Orlanthi warbands, Tarshite
auxilaries, Lunar phalanxes, etc) probably don't rely on magic to
directly affect their opponents, instead they use Spirit magic to
enhance their own abilities (Weapon magics like bladesharp, Body
magics like strength, etc). Countermagic will keep "small" spells off
the unit (slow, dullblade, demoralise, etc), unless the caster puts a
lot of MP behind the spell. My own view of Glorantha does not have
every soldier holding a MP-storage crystal, so they're relying on
their personal MP to fuel the spells. There may be a number of units
that do give every man some storage capacity, but they are probably
the elites (Imperial Guards, some Humakti regiments, (do the sun Domers
give them to the Templars?), etc).
In the wargame scenarios that I have run, I usually give only one or two
leaders things like Sunspear or Sever Spirit. I have not yet tried a
"magical unit" (but I've got the figures for a Lunar one, just need to
paint them...). Of course, my games are for 1-1 scale.
Roderick
---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 02 Aug 1994
Message-ID: <9408021714.AA03548@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 2 Aug 94 05:14:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5413
John Strauss:
> I didn't like the idea of the butterfly being the favored
>animal for Chalanna Arroy allied spirits. Maybe I just had a hangup
>about Chalanna Arroy taking her animal from the Darkness phylum.
I wouldn't get too hung up about butterflies being a
"Darkness" creature. Just because many insects are, does not mean all
are. In fact, I can't think of a organism that is LESS "darkness"
oriented in behavior and appearance than butterflies.
Even as pigs, though mammals, are Earth-beasts, and bats &
rats are darkness beasts, and seabirds are creatures of the water, so
butterflies are beings of Light, not Dark.
The elemental phyla are only the roughest guide to "actual"
elemental natures of the various creatures of Glorantha. While
butterflies no doubt descended from darkness creatures -- moths --
they've lost their dark natures by now (no doubt converted by Voria,
as they are her sacred animals).
That said, I can think of no objection to a hummingbird (or,
indeed, any small songbird) as a Chalana Arroy ally.
Bryan:
>A unit using such powerful magic [Sunspear] would also have to be
>highly trained in close order drills to effectively use the magic.
>It seems that this would be the main limiting factor to the
>effective use of such units in battle.
Yes, quite. Yet more evidence of the amazing Lunar innovation
of using trained magician units en-masse. An old-fashioned regiment,
with maybe a thousand soldiers of which maybe 10 are rune-spell users
doesn't need any special training to coordinate their Sunspears. But
a Lunar Sun-Magic College regiment with 200 Sunspear-users needs to
have its act together or there will be many mixups in action. Only
the least of which is multiple spears hitting the same guy and thus
wasting Runepower.
Jim Lai:
> I got the crazy idea that, since sorcery was common in Kralorea,
>martial artists might employ sorcery to boost their combat
>abilities. Since sorcery is generally not accompanied by glows and
>such, I imagine there might be a few rare spirit magic-using martial
>artists.
As many Digest readers know, I am a champion of the theory
that sorcery is just as obvious (or even more so) as any other type
of magic. To me, sorcerous spells flash, flicker, and otherwise are
perceptable, and a battle between two wizards makes the air hum and
spark with magic power.
That said, I like the idea very much of martial-arts wizards
from Kralorela. This also coincides with my own growing concept of
just how Kralorelan mystic sorcery works. The rules I'm now halfway
through writing have the Kralori learn their magic and spells through
the mastery of skills. They, in fact, must specialize in certain
classes of skills in order to achieve the highest ranks of magic
(generalists are practically unknown in Kralorela, where even
burglars are restricted to a two-hour period in which to practice
their trade). I hadn't thought of martial-arts as one of the skill
classes, but it's clearly one of the coolest ones.
Now, the RQ Martial Arts skill is sufficient for most Martial
Arts action in Glorantha -- since the vast majority of folk wield
weapons, a karate chop loses some of its impressiveness, and no need
was seen to develop Martial Arts into a complex system. BUT, we did
envision such a system being created someday. I'm game for doing one
now, if only I could talk to a knowledgable RQer with a lot more
background in the actual techniques. My knowledge is all based on
stuff I did as a dilettante back in my college days, boosted with a
bunch of book learning about obscure magic techniques like Skeleton
Claw Kung Fu and Bag Style.
>Styles are generally patterned after insects and draconic types, as
>hsunchen animals are verboten.
The sensibleness of this strikes me almost dumb. But what
about the hsunchen themselves? The Kralori hsunchen are pretty
sophisticated, what with centuries of contact with the oldest
civilization around, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Tiger
hsunchen used a Tiger style (which probably carries over to their
Tiger forms), swine hsunchen used a Pig style, etc.
Michael M.
>I was thinking of adventurers who are local to the area. Like Storm
>Bulls who live around the Block, or say, an Orlanthi (or Vinga? or
>Yelorna?) unicorn rider from Pairing Stone, etc. The adventurer
>lives in the area, is a member of the local cult (and is known to
>other local cults, like Chalana Arroy), but does not have the job of
>farmer or merchant or whatever -- he or she is an adventurer. Does
>that mean that she's an outlaw or other undesirable?
Yes!
>Are you suggesting that adventuring is base and crass, and to be
>shunned by the community-at-large?
Yes, yes!!
The Storm Bulls who live around the block are NOT considered
adventurers -- they're considered dangerous thugs who are stupid
enough to fight penniless chaos monsters, but are unsafe merely to be
around. The Vinga unicorn rider from Pairing Stone, if she doesn't
normally live with her tribe, is a weird virgin Not From Our Tribe
who gangs together with other low-lifes (like an occasional Storm
Bull). The Orlanthi who lives in the area, but is not a farmer or
merchant, is a crass and base fellow who prefers to go raiding and
robbing, rather than working for a living. Sure he raids and robs
"the enemy", but that's only to be expected -- only the worst
so-called adventurers raid their own kind. He's certainly not in any
way a reliable member of society -- he doesn't muster with the fyrd
in time of battle, does he? (At least, most adventurers don't.) He
just goes around causing trouble. Yeah, he might go hunt down a
raiding broo, but he's just as likely to be off gallivanting around
the Rainbow Mound looking for loot when the broo shows up. THEN what
good is he? And even if he DOES hunt down the broo, he won't do it
for free -- you have to offer a reward! So the hell with him. We
local farmers will form a posse, hunt down the damn broo, and
afterwards hang all the stinking ruthless combative adventurers we
can catch.
Perhaps this summary is a bit harsh, but I think that an
adventurer has to prove himself to a community in some way other than
"I'm useful to you because I kill things." I personally like starting
my players out with a social blight on their reputations. Not because
I'm mean, but because when they're finally accepted by society, it
means a lot more to them, and so does the society -- now that the
people in Adari smile when the adventurers come to town, and buy them
drinks, and show gratitude, if Adari is threatened by a nomad raid,
the adventurers feel real concern. "Adari attacked? Oh no, that's the
only place in the world we can relax and call our home!"
>How else are campaigns built? Are all your adventurers outlaws, or
>mercenaries hired by the Lunar Governor?
I described my campaign last issue. My adventurers are
merchants with a strong touch of viking. In my former campaign, my
adventurers were basically Pavis low-lifes who discovered a purpose
in The Quest, and then followed that around Glorantha. They didn't
earn their money by going on Seek-And-Destroy missions for hire.
Rather, they followed the Quest, fighting mostly the opposition they
met on the way. Now, sometimes locals would mistake them for ordinary
adventurers and treat them like dirt, but not always.
>I also agree that many farmers do propitiate Mallia and Thed --
>because they can't fight. But if they could hire someone (read,
>adventurer) to help them out, they'd probably rather not be
>"protected" by Thed.
An adventurer is only a temporary fix. In the first place,
they're nomadic, so next year they might not be around to help you.
In the second place, they're short-lived, so they may well be dead
next year. The Malia priestess is still going to be there. Why depend
on a band of adventurers to hold her off for THIS year, and piss her
off, since next year she'll be backing, and wanting more. I can't
afford to support a bunch of voracious adventurers for year after
year -- it's cheaper just to pay off Malia.
>I'm not sure I understand you about spells like Heal Body or
>Resurrexion. If adventurers can't get it, and farmers can't get it,
>who does?
Why can't farmers get it? Why can't adventurers get it? If
you can afford it, and your reputation isn't stinky (farmers have
good reps, though an adventurer may or may not), and the spell's
available, I'm sure the CA priestess would be happy to cast it for
you.
Tapping Animals:
If you believe that animal souls are reincarnated or recycled
(as do most theists, though maybe not westerners), than it's clear
that tapping them, at least herd beasts, is Bad.
Sandy's Current Divine Magic Rules
I am now playing that on each holy day (to a maximum of 5 a
year), an initiate can get 1 point of reusable Rune magic back. If he
has a multipoint spell like Heal Body, then it must be done in stages
(i.e., 3 seasonal holy days restores a 3-point spell). In addition,
the high holy day gives each initiate a POW Gain Roll.
On each holy day, the priest gets all his magic back, and not
at any other time. In addition, on each holy day the priest gets a
POW Gain Roll, unless he does no officiating.
This makes initiates and priests eager to attend the holy
days, instead of it being a chore, keeps priests from spending all
their time in prayer getting their spells back (which bugged me
before), and means that a priest with multiple uses of, say
Resurrect, is more valuable than just a single use (which was not the
case under the old rules, since 3 Resurrects just took 3 times as
long to get back).
I currently am considering letting an acolyte get all his
Rune magic back each High Holy day (only), and 1 point at each other
Holy Day. This sets up a useful differentiation between acolytes and
priests that I feel was lacking.
Comments are welcomed.
---------------------
From: Michelle_Ringo@ed.gov (Michelle Ringo)
Subject: Dimunitives - Bad. Gloranthan Jokes - Good
Message-ID: <9407027758.AA775853630@ed.gov>
Date: 2 Aug 94 16:53:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5414
I think guestkin is a great word. Just thought I'd put in a
plug since I launched the complaint.
---------------------
From: david_baur@cl_63smtp_gw.chinalake.navy.mil (David Baur)
Subject: How we share information
Message-ID: <9408021840.AA07088@Sun.COM>
Date: 2 Aug 94 03:39:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5415
How we share information 8/2/94 11:12
AM
Greetings,
In response to Brent Krupp (X-RQ-ID: 5355)
You asked about how other GMs pass off information to the group. Our
group consists of two people who have reasonably strong knowledge of
Gloriantha (Myself not one of them). The rest are not as versed and require
prompting from the GM. This group has elements of all your cases -- (a)
extensive player knowledge trying to maintain character knowledge; (b)
minimally informed and happy with that; and (c) minimally informed and
want/need to know information for role-playing.
For the new characters, we have them read about where there character is
from (Genertela book 2). Divines read about their god from GoG, then CoP.
The GoG tells them what their cult offers them and CoP gives them a stronger
flavor for their religion. So much for setting up the character. This
allows them a strong start and a good way to start their adventuring. Many
of the characters are from different areas of Genertela, so there is some
specialized information from those characters and some teaching of the
cultures to the other characters.
For specialized scenarios that are not necessarily covered in the book,
we give them a lore roll to see if they knew about it, same with characters
coming across a monster new to them. Once known, the characters remember
about that information (sometimes needing an int roll to have the GM help
remember for them). Characters possessing that area of knowledge get a lore
roll. Characters outside of that knowledge area get a hard skill roll (skill
* 1/2). Sometimes, players come across NPCs that tell them different stories
or lore. This sometimes improves lore through training (allowing player
knowledge and character knowledge to balance in an area. This seems to be
simillar to what Joerg Baumgartner (X-RQ-ID: 5382) . BTW Joerg, I whole heartedly agree
with the story telling. Most castles and such sometimes had a passing
entertainer, but usually they relied on their local talants. They would also
have travelers tell their stories of the world since most people don't travel
outside of their locality.
This stepwise process encourages a faster general knowledge than force
feeding the unwilling. We make available our information and reference books
(and even these dailies) to our group to read and develop interests. Some of
our group devour specialized information (c), while others resist it (b).
---------------------
From: Michelle_Ringo@ed.gov (Michelle Ringo)
Subject: TAP WOMEN'S INT . . . THEY DON'T NEED IT ANYWAY [Hmmm.]
Message-ID: <9407027758.AA775854803@ed.gov>
Date: 2 Aug 94 17:13:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5416
Joerg >>
"Now I wonder which church allows TAP INT on women only?
" [as spear lands in near by door jamb]
[May I point out I nearly fell out of my chair giggling over
this one]. I think that it is a good point. As long as it
is not Hrestoli. In fact, It could be going on in the
Kingdom of War which is why the Abbey of Saint Elleish is
dedicated to providing as many of their women warriors as
possible in the coming battle. . . . .