Bell Digest v940810p1

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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 10 Aug 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
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More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


---------------------

From: klaus@diku.dk
Subject: Why priests should not cas divine magic
Message-ID: <199408090745.AA23773@rimfaxe.diku.dk>
Date: 9 Aug 94 11:45:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5565

In the great magical ecology debate, one option seems
to have been overlooked: matrixes. The rules are not
quite clear, but I assume that it takes one day per
point to recharge a matrix. This is because the statement
that divine magic matrixes are essentially like priestly
magic appears under the describtion of recharging.

The Nikolos example makes it clear that no cult status or
Worship [deity] spell is needed, only access to the proper
temple and knowledge of the proper ritual (which of course
means that you DO need some standing with the cult).

Suppose a priest wants to sink 4 points of her POW into
Bless Crops. If she sacrifices for 4 points of Bless
Crops, she can use 4 castings in a day, then she must
pray for 4 days before she can use them again. When she
dies, her cult can no longer use her spells. If she
sacrifices for two points, then makes two matrixes,
the cult can cast two spells in a day, then have two
people perform part of their cult service by spending
a day recharging the matrixes. This recharging in parallel
means that you get to use both spells every day. Also,
the death of the priest will not destroy the matrixes.

For bless crops, this is really the only way to do it.
The spell blesses as much land as one plowman can plow
in a day, and costs one days prayer to reagain. This
means that if you have as many priests and acolytes
as plowmen, they will use as much time praying for
Bless Crops as the plowmen use plowing.

This is what I suppose happens every spring: the holy
waggon is dragged across the fields. Bless Crops spells
are cast from the matrixes enchanted into its various
ornaments by many generations of priests. Acolytes (who
can not enchant matrixes) also cast their spells. Priests
will not have Bless Crops spells, having enchanted them
into matrixes shortly after attaining priestly status.
All winter, a few of the more religiously inclined initiates
will be praying continuosly, recharging the matrixes. There
will be several at any given time, though each will spend
only a few days on this duty.

A younger temple might have to do the recharging in the spring.
Most of the senior initiates of a community would spend a week
recharging the matrixes prior to the waggons visit to their
land. The size of a "community" would reflect the number of
matrixes available.

Note that you do _NOT_ want to loose that waggon (scenario
hook alert).

This method of parallel recharging and keeping the spells of
dead priests works as well for any reusable spell, of course.

Klaus O K

---------------------

From: CHEN190@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
Subject: The Blue Wizard Taps Joerg!
Message-ID: <01HFPTYJHU0YECXNIG@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: 10 Aug 94 09:03:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5566

Someone else's POW for enchantments:
====================================
JOE!  WHAT ARE YOU SAYING!  You..God Learner!  I would still hold that given
the POW spirit's INT of zero, it is incapable of carrying out such a command. 
One could circumvent it true, by using Create Familiar INT, but a sorcerer
would tell you to get tapped.  Perhaps one should visit the East Isles for a
Sapience spell?  If so I can see the sight:  the fabled magic item making
factory of the god learners is in God Forgot because there is a daily ferry
between there and the East Isles.

The Great False Gods Debate
===========================
You have a point about the prominence of Orlanth in Slontos.  I would hold that
Slontos was converted by lightbringers but the first or second council's hold
over it would have been very weak.  The Silver Empire of the Serpent Kings
could have grabbed it as a source of cheap labour circumventing rules
preventing them against citizens of the Silver Empire.  When the labourers were
brought to Umatheala the Hsunchen among them had lost the contact with their
tribal spirits and so turned to the more friendly religion of the
lightbringers.

>Fonrit is different from Umathela, and I don't think they imprted any
>Umathelan diety on their own, or desired one.

If you have a copy of Heros Volume I issue 5, you would find that the God
Learners infiltrated Fonrit with the establishment of Kalabar in 679 ST.  They
survived the Closing and the fall of the Lord of the Worlds Knowledge in 1020
ST.  They are reported as losing their Koraru bay fleet in 1076 ST (or
approximately) at the hands of the invisible fleet.  It is this incident that is
referred to the description of the warsail in Cement Ships and Leafy Sails and
the invisible fleet makes an appearance in the annotated Argrath's Saga. 
Kalabar did not itself fall until the next century (11xx ST I'm sorry I'm hazy 
on the date) at the hands of Soseko the Firelord making it the last of the God
Learner places to fall.  (I dunno about the six legged empire).  Now I believe
that the God Learners institutionalised the worship of Ompalam in Fonrit.  They
needed an aerial diety to be worshipped but did not want Orlanth shitstirring
with his ideas of freedom.  thus they introduced Worlath.

>The Arkat mystery fits easily into the Monomyth.

You explanation of the facts is correct.  I have no doubt that Arkat Kingtrolls
birth was a glorified adoption rite in which Garazaf was is adoptive mother. 
Presumably Arkat became Humakt's son by a similar method?  After all the
Brithini insist that his father was a barbarian warrior, nobody special.

>IMO the God Learners were far from understanding the Kingdom of Logic.  The
>fact they supported the Return to Rightness movement seems almost contrary to
>this.

The Kindom of Logic, what speculations are committed in your name?  My
understanding of the events is that the Stygian Alliance adopted a henotheist
position which was anathema to traditional Malkion precepts.  What then of the
Jrusteli Alliance?  My guess is that they were not aiming for Malkion's proofs
but to recreate the Kingdom of Logic which was ancient in malkions day.  thus
they were 'investigating' the False Gods to bring out the good points in them
(ie Ehilm's fireballs) and leave out the bad (his selfish refusal to teach his
powers).  Because of this they saw the worship of pagan gods as injurious to
their aims (perhaps of getting more converts).

>There is a real sun in Glorantha.  For some reasons the god learners found it
>politic to identify Yelm universally with this sun, and I think they were
>responsible for renaming the sun gods of Ralios and Fonrit.

The first statement is a powerful rejoinder to those among us who would see
myths as ultimately falsifiable.  I disagree with the second part in that the
God Learners had very little control over the worship of Yelm who lived beyond
the EWF. 

IMO, the God of the Fonritians in the First Age was Lodril who is
noted in pamaltelean myths as having ruled this land.  (The Doraddi developed
their kinship structure to justify their worship of Pamalt, for Lodril is
stated as being no longer important among us even though he created them and
would have had powerful arguements of filial Piety.)  The God Learners probably
promugulated the worship of a more civilizing diety (Ompalam!) and introduced
Yelmic worship to emphasize the meaning of bondage in the world ('Yelm, the most
powerful god alive is bound to his path so why do you claim you are free?'). 
Furthermore Yelm is noted in kralori documents as ruling everywhere and
organizing the world into its parts (or perhaps genertela): In Kralorela,
Metsyla; in Dara Happa, Murzaharm and in Bliss in ignorance, Sun Storm.  In all
these cases, they are recognized as being different from the True Sun, Yelm.

As for the Orlanthi myths about Elmal as identifying him as the True Sun:  I
think the myths written in KoS were an undoubted euphenism told to little
children.  The real identity of the Emperor would have been told to the new 
Wind Lord (during the Grey Age) in his initatory Heroquest as he slays the Evil
Emperor only to find that he not Elmal is the Sun.  Afterall Dara happan myth
says the Rebellus Terminus fled in terror after he had done the dead.  This 
would impel the Wind lord to make the world a better place.  Afterall when 
Orlanth asks for the wherabouts of the Grand Order, nobody says 'You killed 
him, dickhead, coz he was a complete bastard.  Don't tell me you miss that
 SOB'.  When Yelm returns to life, it is given in the perception of his 
recognition as the Grand Order rather than him being the True Sun.  
Thus in the early dawn age, the Wind Lord would still face the shock of 
finding that the Sun is actually the Evil Emperor and not Elmal.  
When Khordavu proved otherwise, THEN the shit hit the fan.

This makes Elmal, a orlanthi excuse for the sun.  The real truth was a cult
secret hidden at the highest levels to make the driving force of Orlanths quest
for social justice.  The God Learners recognized this and they treated it as
such.  As for Elmal, I have identified Antirius as Yelmalio.  This is beacuse
they both get wounded at the hills of gold.  This makes the passage that
Shargash kicked the crap out of Elmal and Shargash's resentment of Antirius
intruiging.  I have noted Ehilm in the Lightbringers quest.  I have no firm
ideas about the subject at present put will post in the future.  This piece
seems to be getting too long.  I will break off here and resume the thread in
the next post.

---------------------

From: CHEN190@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
Subject: The Great False Gods Debate II
Message-ID: <01HFPWMWDM3CECXNIG@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: 10 Aug 94 10:02:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5567

False Gods II:  They're back and they're pissed off!
====================================================
>Hmm. I don't mean that uleria is a false god in her origin.

Well I agree that there was a real Uleria and I believe that there is a False
Goddess Uleria who because of the dissappearance of the real uleria was taken
as the True Uleria.  The False Goddess may have been a woman who took the name
of Uleria and was expelled by the profit Malkion for some infraction or
another.  She appears to have been widely travelled given Dara Happan
condemnation of her in the index to the Gods Wall.  

>Do you subscribe to my view that the ancient KoL was "divided into six parts:
>one of each element and one human?

Your theory on the Kingdom of Logic is a bit too neat for my liking, Joe. 
Afterall we earthlings may think the theory of four elements is universal, but
the Chinese had five and left out air!  The KoL for instance may not have
recognized a distinction between Darkness and Water and that the only reason
why we do in Glorantha is that the God Learners decided it would be better to
our understanding of the cosmos.  If you have any source that I don't, then
tell me about it!

>Zistor...is a constructed diety.

So apparently was Jogrampur and he was present in the False Gods Revolt.

>Your explanation on False Gods displaying effective magic

I don't find it convincing I'm afraid.  Zistor was known to be effective around
840 ST when the God Learners invaded the Shadowlands and he showed up like a
giant terminator and tore down the walls of the esrolian cities.  If the False
Gods couldn't do magic before 901 ST then why worship them? And when they did
display effective magic, Why did they destroy the university?

>"Brother of Zzabur" can be read as "Brother of Storm Bull" - relative.  I
>wouldn't make the Devil a son of Malkion, unless Vadeli turns out to be one.

Since when has Zzabur been the son of Malkion?  The only child malkion had that
I know of was Waetag.  Zzabur IMO is far older than Malkion.

Your anagram of vadel is intriuging.  The Vadeli tend to be strongly puritian
compared to what Brithini imply about them.  I believe in the end that the
Vadeli happened to be much more relaxed in their caste restrictions.  They
adopted skin colours so that everybody had a primary caste and could be relied
on to do a certain task.

The Only Old Debate
===================
>The First Age myth of the OOO mentions his proof that he was _not_ a troll
>when he resisted the iron the dwarf hero of gemborg employed against him, and
>was not burnt.

Reread Trolls Gods (NO don't look at the pictures just look at Argan Argar...)
The OOO is a subcult of Argan Argar and teaches Cure Iron Burn.  IMO he
employed this in his fight to prove the the revisionist dwarves that he was not
a troll (when in fact he was) and so they would not be violoating dictates by
the Decamony not to kill any troll they meet.  I think the revolt subsided
after that.

Your idea of an imitation council in Kethaela is quite compatible with the fact
that the OOO sent a representative to the First Council.  He may have been
enarmoured of the idea of the council and replicated its structure of an oath
of unity to bring peace to his lands.  In effect, since he was chief big boy,
he could only benefit.  Alternatively he could have adopted the first council
structure to counter criticism of his dominance of Kethaela.  Since trolls were
the most numerous, (it is only later that he has to give more power to the
humans) he would come out tops again.

To recapitulate:  The secret of the first councils oath of unity was forged in
the I Fought We Won Battle.  This had a magical effect which the OOO used in a
similar ritual to bring peace to his land.  The Brithini of God Forgot had no
part in the I Fought We Won Battle but assented to the rituals because it
brought protection.

Talar:  So what do we have to do in this ritual?
Zzabur:  We have to wear daisy chains and go 'Hubabuba, hubabuba, We are One'
Talar:  Well it can't be any worse that having to abandon our homes and take to
the plains as the Praxians wanted us to do.  We'll sign.

The OOO council was broken when the Dwarves revolted for an unknown reason and
shattered when the OOO backed the losing side.  The Heortlanders and the
Brithini remained hostile to Palangio the Iron Vrok whereas the Esrolians were
subdued and the Caladralanders and the Dwarves were enthusiastic supporters of
the Bright Empire.  When palangio was killed the OOO reformed the Council of
Kethaela without the dwarves of Gemborg until he was killed by the pharoah who
inherited the magic.  Argan Argar was the ruling God of Kethaela IMO in the
first age in that he was the patron spirit of the trolls who dominated the
region.  Deconstructionist attempts with comparable lands to me is a flawed
approach.

>(AA)..was the male ruler of night, though, a role which is rarely appreciated

Not quite.  He was a son of night which is a bit different.  IMO he led a
band of trolls who eventually conquered Kethaela where he bonked esrolia and
got a son the OOO.  When his importance grew he became The son of night.

>"Argan Argar was active during the darkness, aiding anybody who called upon
>him..."

I think that this went as far as his borders during the grey age instead of
taking on a universal approach.

till the next reply from Joe

Cheers The Blue Wizard.

---------------------

From: DevinC@aol.com
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 09 Aug 1994, part 9
Message-ID: <9408090643.tn831182@aol.com>
Date: 9 Aug 94 10:43:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5568

Devin Cutler here:

Mark Foster writes:

"I have AOL, as long as the group was rec.frp...AOL will get it, we don't get
alt. groups"

Uh Mark, I have AOL and I have been getting alt.music.peter-gabriel and
alt.politics.libertarian for some time now.

Regards,

Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com
"We finally got that vampire, but where's his basil....................."


---------------------

From: rowe@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Rowe)
Subject: The Only Old One and his pal from Gemborg.
Message-ID: <199408091045.DAA10816@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 8 Aug 94 20:45:48 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5569


Joerg on the Only Old One...

>The First Age myth of the OOO mentions his proof that he was _not_ a 
>troll when he resisted the iron the dwarf hero of Gemborg employed 
>against him, and was not burnt.

>I still think that Kethaela had its own version (imitation) of the 
>Dragon Pass Council, with elves from Arstola, dwarves from Gemborg, 
>dragonewts from Ryzel (?) and other forces from the sixths participating. 
>In a way, for a time their Council was more complete and true than the 
>World Council of Friends, because they even included the Westerners from 
>the Left Arm Isles. (My theory of Kethaela reflecting the Kingdom of 
>Logic, again.) However, this council broke up before the First Council 
>changed into the Second Council, when the dwarfs of Gemborg dissented. 
>(Another hint that this council and the Dragon Pass council were not 
>identical - the dwarfs remained true to the Osentalka project.)

Can't wait for the Real Truth (tm) that will be presented in the
documents for the Broken Council? Here's a few facts Joerg is missing
and/or does not yet know. The fight between the Gemborg Mostali and
the OOO was about 25 years before the second council began, they are
related events, but not causal. Also, the Gemborg dwarfs were the only
dwarfs besides the Greatway to support the Ostentalka project. Clearly
their fight with the OOO did nothing to remove their agreement with
council goals. That is all in RQ Companion and DW 24. For more fun,
both the OOO and his Gemborg mostali enemy are both characters in the
Broken Council.  Register today, before it is too late.

eric

ps I clearly don't agree with his two council theory. I believe the
The one council (WCoF) was based in Kethaela based upon its members. It
is sometimes called the dragon pass council because most consider Kethaela
just the southern part of DP and many members came from DP.

---------------------

From: jonsg@hyphen.com (Jon Green)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 09 Aug 1994, part 9
Message-ID: <4336.9408091153@diss.hyphen.com>
Date: 9 Aug 94 11:53:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5570

[ Regarding "RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 09 Aug 1994, part 9", RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM writes on Aug  9: ]

Bryan J. Maloney (X-RQ-ID: 5558):
>                    ...  Beer has to age for a while after the yeast is
> settled, believe me.  This aging is usually no more than a few months,
> but some beers are improved by years of aging.
> 
I've been brewing beers some some several years now, and I can confirm this
wholeheartedly.  Generally, the heavier the beer, the longer the maturation.
I rack the beers off into cover-pressure kegs, where they settle and age.  A
premium-strength classic beer takes about 3-4 months stored like this, in a
cool room, before it's worth drinking.  As for heavier beers, I have a brew
which is a porter/stout hybrid, and about 6.5% by volume with masses of body;
it was drinkable (albeit a bit young) at six months.  What's left of it's
now a little over a year old, and is just coming into its time.  I've a strong
classic beer that's been about two years in the keg, and it keeps improving!
(It was pretty good at 3 months, so I'm told.)

Peter Metcalfe (X-RQ-ID: 5559):
 
> P. Michaels disagrees with me about Umatum seing him as the trickster.  I only
> suggested him because in the Gods Wall Row-I, he has a particularly large
> 'Umatum', 'carrot' or what have you.  I agree with him that Rakenveg is the
> native trickster, however I do not feel that Umatum is an outsider trickster. 
> I see his name as being a Dara Happan Cognate of Umath.  As to why he has a
> large carrot, I do not know.  Perhaps he is misidentified?  BTW Lanatum in the
> GRAoY I intepreted as Orlanth given a third name by which the Dara Happans know
> him (Rebellus Terminus and Oralanatus).  I like the carrot idea and think it is 
> very clever.
> 
It's pretty common in Earth (as in, the planet) mythology for Trickster
analogues to be rather well-endowed.

> Your Sexual Prowess spell is a wee bit too wimpy.  having read Aristophanes
> 'Lysistrata' I would extend the spell length to eight weeks and rule it doesn't
> go away until 'satisfied'.  Dispell magic does not work (although I know I'm on
> shakey magical theory ground here).  Imagine the turmoil a dayzatarian priest
> must experience as he struugles to last out the season.
> 
I'd suggest that, after the spell has expired, so has its target's equipment,
for an equivalent amount of time.  Flesh is only *so* strong!  Of course, that
means that its owner's going to need the spell again, next time the opportunity
occurs during the "refractory period".  (Exits to Robert Palmer's "Addicted to
Love."  Wanders back with a strange grin...)  I'd also suggest that the 
priapism caused by the spell should become increasingly more uncomfortable 
until it is "satisfied", making the spell's target more and more desperate...
(Healer:  "If he doesn't get to the Ulerian temple in the next ten minutes, I 
think he might just die!")


		All the best,

		Jon

jonsg@diss.hyphen.com

---------------------

From: Henk.Langeveld@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: Regenerating Rune Magic
Message-ID: <9408081458.AA14469@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 8 Aug 94 15:58:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5571


> From sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com Mon Aug  8 16:25 MET 1994
> 
> >I noticed that the modifications would fit David Cheng's Rune Power  
> >system; instead of regenerating specific spells, people would have  
> >different rates of renegerating Rune Points.
> 	True enough. I'm still unconvinced (but willing to be  
> convinced) as to the virtue of Dave Cheng's concept. I'm not sure  
> whether it's more fun for a player to know he has the mighty Sunspear  
> or to have a shapeless pool of points. 

It's more fun for the player having more choice, it's less
fun for the GM having to think of all the spells the player
*might* know...

 
> >Now that I've raised the subject I will again plug my own variant of
> >Rune Power: As I'm more inclined to a gradual learning of the "cult
> >mysteries", I proposed to have people aquire the knowledge of a
> >specific spell each time they sacrifice POW for Rune Points.
> 	So, they would have to learn the spells in order? A Humakti  
> would learn Truesword first, say, then Detect Truth, then Shield, and  
> so forth?

In order eh?   Never thought of that.

I'd say it'd depend on the particular cult...

One might say that initiation is sacrificing one point of POW
and getting to learn Worship (...) as a first spell.  (How's that
for unifying divine magic rules?)

A more freedom loving cult would allow the initiate more choice
selecting the spells to learn, while a more disciplined cult
(Yelmalio?) would dictate the order in which  spells are offered.
"You have to prove yourself for Sunspear, sonny."


I objected at first to David's Rune Power, but I like the
flexibility it offers.   It did eliminate a nice opportunity
for role-playing,  and I think my proposal reintroduces that.

All in all, 

More fun, yes!