From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 11 Aug 1994, part 2
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk
---------------------
From: drcheng@stern.nyu.edu (David Cheng)
Subject: RQ-Con Compendium Book Available
Message-ID:
Date: 10 Aug 94 06:26:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5598
THE RUNEQUEST-CON COMPENDIUM IS FINALLY AVAILABLE
After an interminably long delay, the _RuneQuest-Con Compendium_ is
finally available in the United States and beyond. Those of you at
Convulsion 94 have already seen it; please post your impressions so the
others can make a more informed buying decision.
WHAT'S INSIDE?
This thing is jam-packed with good stuff (and twice as long as I thought
it would be). Here's what you get:
Another Great Dan Barker Cover
"Harrek battles the Sea Monster"
A glossy cardstock cover to protect your investment. If only my scanner
were better...
Orlanthi Storytelling - 12 pages
Seven stories from the storytelling contest have been captured in
written form, including three of the four finalists. They are:
Orlanth and Thed - Eric Rowe *RQ-Con Winner*
Vinga and the Cloak of Snakes - Alison Place
The Tale of Thrimball the Storyteller - Rich Staats
Yelmalio's Battles at the Hill of Gold - Harald Smith
The Three Day Feast of Eurmal - Ian Gorlick
The Fox King - Nick Brooke
How Orlanth Won Ernalda's Attention - Martin Crim
Home of the Bold Narratives - 36 pages
Twenty HotB participants submitted character diaries. There is an
excellent balance of Lunar, Independent and Sartarite accounts. Learn
about all sorts of crafty things that you had no idea were going on!
Learn about Boldhome power struggles. This section concludes with a
brief account of what the final resolution could have been like.
Seminar Transcripts - 35 pages
We were lucky to capture on tape a lot of the Gloranthan Lore that was
discovered at the con. We're all indebted to Peter Michaels, Martin
Crim & Dave Camoirano for their long hours of volunteer transcription.
We've got 99% complete transcriptions of the following seminars:
* The Sixty Questions at the Gloranthan Lore Auction
* Stafford speaking for an hour on HeroQuesting
* The Nick Brooke Cultural Exchange
(The good part is Paul Reilly says more than Stafford!)
* Live Action Role Playing
I really think this section is the backbone of the whole book, and will
be the most useful for your daily gaming & ongoing Gloranthan studies.
Live Action Trollball - 2 pages
MOB posted it on the RQ Daily, but it was too good not to reproduce in
the book. Presented is an account of that wintry Sunday morning game,
and the "rules" used.
WHAT'S THE DAMAGE?
We're charging $15 apiece (10 Pounds Sterling in the UK). I know this
sounds like a lot, but please keep in mind:
* the thing is BIG (92 pages!)
* this is a limited-edition press run
* some of this goes to help finance RQ-Con II
* Avalon Hill charges more for fewer pages, and I bet their production
costs are one-fifth ours per book...
HOW DO I GET ONE?
First the good news - a whole bunch of you get one ABSOLUTELY FREE. I
just have to get off my lazy butt and mail them out to you. I'm going
out of town this weekend, so I'm planning on licking a lot of envelopes
next week.
The following classes of people get a book free:
* Anyone who GM'd a game at RuneQuest-Con
* Anyone who helped out a lot at RuneQuest-Con
* Anyone who contributed to the contents of the Compendium
I've compiled the following list of people who I think qualify (in alpha
order):
Shannon Appel, Tim Beecher, David Boatright, John Boyle, Bill Bridges,
John Brown, Brandon Brylawski, Brian Carpenter, James B. Chapin, David
Chapin, James D. Chapin, Diana Chapin, Martin Crim, Mark Daniels,
David Dunham, Bob Dushay, John Flavin, Brian Forester, Brad Furst,
Mark Gilles, Paul Gilles, Ian Gorlick, Andrew Greenberg, Paul Harmaty,
Charles Keith-Stanley, John King, Finula McCaul, John Medway, David
Meneghin, Loren Miller, David Millians, Mark Minster, Bob Monaghan,
Charles Morehouse, Glen Newman, Dang Q. Nguyen, Phil O'Connor, Jeff
Okamoto, Alison Place, Paul Reilly, Roderick Robertson, Neil
Robinson, Eric Rowe, Lawrence Schick, Harald Smith, Rich Staats,
Michael Strathearn, Tom Sullivan, Curtis Taylor, Randy Tomaszewski, T.
Michael Trout, Hans van Halteren, Mark Wallace, David Wible, Paul
Woodmansee, Mike Young
NOTE: I'm sure I've forgotten a few folks. Please don't be bashful
about lobbying me to get a free copy - those of you at the con know how
I was an avatar of Disorder that weekend. I promise to judge all
petitions fairly.
For those of you who have to pay:
* David Hall has plenty of copies available for European customers.
Please contact him at:
21 Stephenson Court
Osborne Street
Slough SL1 1TN
ENGLAND
100116.2616@compuserve.com
* Michael O'Brien will be getting a shipment from me at some point in
the future. Please note that the surface mail from me to Australia is
awfully slow.
48 Barcelona Street
Box Hill 3128
Victoria
AUSTRALIA
MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
* I have enough copies that I don't plan on selling out really soon (but
it would be nice).
* First come first served
* Shipment goes out max 3 days after I receive your payment
* All payment in U.S. funds made out to "David Cheng"
* Cost is $15 U.S. each, plus postage
* Postage rates as follows
Book Rate (10-14 Days - can get beat up) $1.25
3rd Class (7-10 Days - can get beat up) $1.75
1st Class (3-5 Days) $2.75
2-Day Express $3.00
===========
Canada & Mexico Air Mail $3.00
Rest of the Globe Air Mail $5.00
That's enough from me for now. Get your orders in soon - I've got to
pay off the printer!
* David Cheng drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu cheng@io.com
(212) 472-7752 [before midnight] GEnie: D.CHENG
---------------------
From: dave_cordes@cl_63smtp_gw.chinalake.navy.mil (Dave Cordes)
Subject: The grass is prax???
Message-ID: <9408101521.AA26272@Sun.COM>
Date: 10 Aug 94 00:21:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5600
CL QM-SMTP gw The grass is prax???
From: Bryan J. Maloney
>>I'm assuming that Prax is like the US praries.
>>(Grass gets to be 2-3 meters in Fire Season and Earth Season.)
Exactly which US prairies are you finding this 2-3 meter grass. I spent a
substantial part (all) of my youth in South Dakota, Wyoming, and Nebraska. I
have never seen grass 2-3 meters high. In a good gorwing season sometimes
the corn might hit 2 meters. The grass ranges from 10 or so cm. to maybe a
half meter. 'Buffalo grass' which is most of what you find in the praries of
these states (prairies = anywhere they aren't farming or building towns) is
usually only a few centimeters high. It is a rough, drought resistant grass
that probably wouldn't make a very good fuel (by itself). Elsewhere you can
find some grasses (sorry don't know the types) that do grow to 60-70 cm. I
can't say much for the native grass of the midwest. Most of that area is
cultivated farmland.
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Kingdom of Logic
Message-ID:
Date: 10 Aug 94 17:51:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5603
Peter Metcalfe in X-RQ-ID: 5567
>>Do you subscribe to my view that the ancient KoL was "divided into six parts:
>>one of each element and one human?
> Your theory on the Kingdom of Logic is a bit too neat for my liking, Joe.
> Afterall we earthlings may think the theory of four elements is universal, but
> the Chinese had five and left out air! The KoL for instance may not have
> recognized a distinction between Darkness and Water and that the only reason
> why we do in Glorantha is that the God Learners decided it would be better to
> our understanding of the cosmos. If you have any source that I don't, then
> tell me about it!
I think I have largely the same sources as you have, but my Library Use
skill tends to bring up connections different from other peoples' Library
Use.
Bertalor's document shows us a late 1st Age Malkioni interpretation of the
elemental forces. He recognizes Fire (Lodril, maybe Zrethus), Darkness
(Nakala), Earth (Ga), Water (Sramak), and Air (Umath).
The Brithini know five elemental forces, and have special schools of
sorcery attached to them. They are the ones also acknowledged by the
God Learners: Darkness, Water, Earth, Fire, Storm/Air.
(Ok, this bit may have crystallized from various private communications.)
IMO the five element division we take as default originated in the
Kingdom of Logic and was reflected in southern Dragon Pass, the heart
of the Theyalan civilisation (and source of most theist cultures).
The absence of Moon and Void/Chaos from these combinations speaks for
itself...
The story of Humct and the presence of Zrethus and Uleria (two source
deities for Power Runes) in Bertalor's document make it likely that the
Brithini also have eight (or ten, if we include Luck and Fate) schools of
Power sorcery, or alternatively eight (or ten) sorcerous techniques.
(This drifts off into Runic Sorcery, which I won't debate now.)
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 10 Aug 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <9408101837.AA26840@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 10 Aug 94 18:37:22 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5605
Paul Reilly replying to Ian:
About Talars: I believe that the original message asked about Talars and
not Lords, hence my references to the Brithini. About Lords in general:
>Yes, I can see that they have to work on people skills, I just don't see even
>2000% oratory being enough when your underlings realize that your power is
>based only on words.
So where does the power of the Supreme Court come from in the US? Why
does the British Army obey Parliament? Did Xerxes have enough magic to
keep the commander of the Immortals from overthrowing him? How did the
Gracchi survive as powers in Rome as long as they did? Why was the Pope able
to dictate terms to kings?
Leaders do not need to hold the weapons to rule, they need to inspire
loyalty and be good at detecting threats to their rule and countering them
early on. I recommend Machiavelli's "The Prince". Note that the Lords
in the West have a great weight of tradition behind them, and the knights
and wizards have a great tradition of service.
>Furthermore, the military and priestly castes are also given administrative
>duties. They too must develop their people skills. Some of them will have
From the Genertela Book and Gods of Glorantha we know that the Lords supply
the bishops and generals as well as the counts and kings. Who are these
priests and knights with administrative duties?
>I do not believe that they control the money in their societies. I suspect that
Then in your Glorantha the situation may indeed be ripe for revolt. Who
does control the money?
I think that in many areas the nobles do control the trade. Look at much
of medieval Europe - nobles and the princes of the Church were deeply into
trade in many countries. Look at the Islamic countries, India, etc.
I'd call Lorenzo de Medici a Lord, or the Orsini, or the Grandmaster of the
Templars (largest money lenders in Europe for a while).
>Once trade opens up, the wealth will move into
>the hands of the merchants and the talars will soon be asking them for loans
I don't think we need to make high school history textbooks about late
medieval Europe our primary source for the Malkioni. While this is one
way that the economy can develop, there are many others. Compare for example
the Imperial Roman economy, where senators controlled much of the trade and
when freemen grew rich they often wound up adopted or allied by marriage
into the existing nobility. I use this sort of picture as a model for
the Carmanian economy. THere are many others possible. Why not adopt
your model for some areas but have the nobles have more sense in others?
>This leads me to conclude that
>the Rokari and others must also have some caste mobility.
For Carmania I posit mobility by adoption, as seen in Rome, etc.
Rokari may be stricter. Perhaps successful knights can marry upwards?
Is there any reason to suppose that Rokari serfs who are craftsmen are
any freer than their class-mates bound to the soil? With the Wizards on
the side of the Lords, running away may be well nigh impossible. There may
be no free towns a la medieval Western Europe. We just don't know. I
hesitate to say everything is like medieval Western Europe except where
otherwise noted - instead I'd rather start from facts we do have, like your:
>The talars have been in
>charge for 1600 years of Time apparently without interuption
and reason from there. And some of those facts are shaky - I am sure
a usurper would claim Talar heritage. How much royal blood did Henry Tudor
have anyway? Perhaps Bailifes the Hammer's claim on the Seshnelan throne
was equally shaky and he tried to freeze the caste structure in place
in order to secure his own dynastic claim. Seshnela has gone back and
forth on Linealism before- I don't know if the current rigid system has
been in place for more than c. two and a half centuries - it could well
be that Seshnela is ripe for a change. I am pleased that someone besides
me thinks about this kind of question...
>You raise some valid points, but it still seems like the talars are walking a
>tightrope. Their situation is not stable.
I agree. There is little evidence that it is in fact stable - both
Loskalm and Seshnela have undergone revolutionary changes in the last few
centuries, in fact. Only the Brithini are really stable. Again, I was confused
by your use of the term "talar" which I interpreted as "Talar" rather than
"Lord"
- Paul
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Constructed False Gods
Message-ID:
Date: 10 Aug 94 19:51:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5606
Peter Metcalfe in X-RQ-ID: 5567
>>Zistor...is a constructed diety.
> So apparently was Jogrampur and he was present in the False Gods Revolt.
Yes. First of all, "False Gods" are different labels in arch-conservative
Western cosmology and in Umathelan history. In Western cosmology, the
False Gods were presented as humans absorbing the acknowledged powers
(Runes) of the world.
Jogrampur is a special case, because he is an illusionary deity. Given
the special nature of Illusion, I found it fitting to include a
non-existing person in the array of False Gods, not too unlike Sandy's
(or MOB's?) recent proposal for one of the sorcerers least popular to be
apprenticed to, the long-duration Phantom spell.
What really makes Zistor different from Jogrampur is that Zistor was
constructed with very real powers, while the False God experiment in
Umathela fooled its worshippers with skilful sorcery cast by the
experimentators in reply to the priests officiation.
Somehow, the experimentators did not catch all of the sacrificed life
force, and the worshipped entities were formed from the worshippers'
efforts.
>>Your explanation on False Gods displaying effective magic
> I don't find it convincing I'm afraid. Zistor was known to be effective around
> 840 ST when the God Learners invaded the Shadowlands and he showed up like a
> giant terminator and tore down the walls of the esrolian cities. If the False
> Gods couldn't do magic before 901 ST then why worship them? And when they did
> display effective magic, Why did they destroy the university?
Because they saw the difference between the real thing their deities
granted, and the bogus benedictions the university experimentators
provided. In their righteous rage, they razed everything connected to the
experimentators.
>>"Brother of Zzabur" can be read as "Brother of Storm Bull" - relative. I
>>wouldn't make the Devil a son of Malkion, unless Vadeli turns out to be one.
> Since when has Zzabur been the son of Malkion? The only child malkion had that
> I know of was Waertag. Zzabur IMO is far older than Malkion.
There is a source which names the four sons and one daughter of Malkion as
the name-givers to the Brithini castes. I'll try and locate it.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: Urox@aol.com
Subject: AOL
Message-ID: <9408101605.tn908854@aol.com>
Date: 10 Aug 94 20:05:27 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5607
Devin Cutler writes:
Uh Mark, I have AOL and I have been getting alt.music.peter-gabriel and
alt.politics.libertarian for some time now.
Thanks, they must limit it then, I couldn't find some of the groups I used to
get when I was a student so I figured they cut out all alt. groups.
Mark
---------------------
From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: "Disestablish"
Message-ID: <9408102042.AA04689@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 10 Aug 94 10:42:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5608
Okay, in Websters third New World dictionary, we don't have
"disestablishmentarianism". We have "disestablish" with the rest being
appropriate suffices to add to the verb.
The definitions are:
1 to deprieve of the status of being established
2 to deprive (a state church) of official sanction and support by the
government.
No mention is made, whatsoever, of the Roman Catholic church.
I also know that the doctrine of "Antidisestablishmentarianism" as it appears
in English history (and I think it only appears in English history) refers
exclusively to those who oppose the disestablishement of the Anglican
church in England. And, since antidisestablishmentarianism is just the
opposite stance of disestablishmentarianism, even to the point of defining
itself in such terms, disestablishmentarianism refers to the movement
to remove governemental sanction from the Anglican church as a state religious
body. When translated to other countries, it then refers to the local
state church.
Thus, one cannot be a disestablishementarian in the modern USA. You can
be an anti-Catholic, though, but that doesn't sound as nice and intellectual,
does it?
PS: I remember USA Today running a poll regarding Catholicism and America,
it included their cute little photo plus opinion spread. I was quite
surprised to hear some little gems recited that I thought had died out
with the Know-Nothings (a large Anti-Catholic political party in the US
many decades ago). The most egregiously stupid has to be a woman who said
that she hated all Roman Catholics because they're all part of a conspiracy
to take over the world by having more babies than anybody else. Then they
can install the Pope as world leader.
I think I read this in 1990 or 1991. Yes, Virginia, there is a Moronity.
---------------------
From: gadbois@cs.utexas.edu (David Gadbois)
Subject: Malkion's wild oats
Message-ID: <19940810191234.6.GADBOIS@CLIO.MCC.COM>
Date: 10 Aug 94 09:12:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5609
From: CHEN190@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
Date: 10 Aug 94 10:02:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5567
Since when has Zzabur been the son of Malkion? The only child
malkion had that I know of was Waetag.
That Malkion guy really got around. Besides the four caste brothers
(Talor, Zzabur, Horal, and Dronal) and Waertag, he is rumored to have
sired numerous others.
--David Gadbois
---------------------
From: jensmh@unixg.ubc.ca (Jens Haeusser)
Subject: Variant Rune Magic
Message-ID: <9408101659.AA28881@unixg.ubc.ca>
Date: 10 Aug 94 02:59:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5610
Henk Langeveld writes
>One might say that initiation is sacrificing one point of POW
>and getting to learn Worship (...) as a first spell. (How's that
>for unifying divine magic rules?)
I've always played that the one point of pow sacrificed to become an
initiate is in fact a sacrifice for the spell Worship x, which is cast and
regained by that initiate in worship ceremonies on the cult's high holy
day.
>I objected at first to David's Rune Power, but I like the
>flexibility it offers. It did eliminate a nice opportunity
>for role-playing, and I think my proposal reintroduces that.
I've been playtesting a version of Rune Magic that seems to work fairly
well. In it, an Acolyte/Priest sacrifices POW to gain knowledge of a
specific spell, but they can cast divine magic from a pool of both their
total POW sacrificed and the divine spells they know. Note that stackable
spells can only be cast up to the level that they are sacrificed for.
For example Fladwyn, Sword of Humakt, in becoming a Sword has sacrificed
POW to gain knowledge of Truesword, Shield 3, Detect Truth, Sever Spirit
(3), Heal Wound and Soul Sight. He thus has a pool of 10 points of divine
magic and 6 different spells. Without regaining any divine magic through
prayer, he could cast any of those 6 spells in any combination of up to 10
POW. He cast Shield at any strength up to 3, since that is the level to
which he has "learned (or more like "earned") the spell. While out
adventuring, Fladwyn gets in a big battle, and casts Truesword, Shield 3,
Sever Spirit. After the battle, he casts Heal Wound on himself and Detect
Truth to interrogate an opponant. He has used up 9 points of his divine
magic, and has only 1 left before prayer. Perhaps he'll use it later in
casting another Truesword or Heal Wound, or maybe he'll need to use a Soul
Sight.
This system allows a little more flexibility in how a character casts their
divine magic. As well, it encourages players to take as many different Rune
Spells as they can, because they aren't as limited in the number of times
they can cast a single spell (no more taking 7 Heal Wounds... =)
>A more freedom loving cult would allow the initiate more choice
>selecting the spells to learn, while a more disciplined cult
>(Yelmalio?) would dictate the order in which spells are offered.
>"You have to prove yourself for Sunspear, sonny."
I also use this in determining when a character can learn a particular
spell. In general, the character also has to succeed in a related skill
before they can sacrifice for the spell (ie Haaven had to prove himself
worthy by demonstrating a successful sword attack before learning
Truesword.)
Jens, TTGG.