Bell Digest v940811p4

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From: (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: It's hard to tap me...
Date: 10 Aug 94 16:49:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5602

Peter Metcalfe in X-RQ-ID: 5566

> Subject: The Blue Wizard Taps Joerg!

Tap is a Touch Spell, and Sense Projection won't penetrate my defenses.


> If you have a copy of Heros Volume I issue 5

Vol. 1 issue 6, actually, pp.36-39.

The oppressive regime of the blacks in Fonrit over the blue populace 
preceded the God Learners. Given that the accounts on Garandoros were 
written by the victors, he seems to be the one to blame for niceties 
like Ompalam. To quote: "Their gods were sometimes a relief from the 
oppressive deities invoked by Garangordos and his children."

You see, the God Learners tried to do something good, now and then.

> Presumably Arkat became Humakt's son by a similar method?  After all the
> Brithini insist that his father was a barbarian warrior, nobody special.

From a Brithini point of view this describes Humakt, the Orlanthi deity, 

Arkat's adoption/recognition was effected by Harmast Barefoot and his 
companions on their Lightbringers' Quest.

> The Kindom of Logic, what speculations are committed in your name?  My
> understanding of the events is that the Stygian Alliance adopted a henotheist
> position which was anathema to traditional Malkion precepts.

Traditional Malkion concepts - a nice fiction, because they were utterly 
lost even before Time began. The henotheist position of the Stygians was 
in fact not too different from that of the Serpent Kings, in whose names 
temples were erected at Hrelar Amali, to "Orlanth" and "Magasta" (I wonder 
what names they used).

> What then of the
> Jrusteli Alliance?  My guess is that they were not aiming for Malkion's proofs
> but to recreate the Kingdom of Logic which was ancient in malkions day.

I don't think so. The Kingdom of Logic was a self-contented land free of 
trouble or ambition, in fact its humans must have lived in a pastoral 
(or rather agricultural) bliss. None of the original Malkioni (now 
Brithini) castes really allows for city life. Nowadays crafters are 
counted among the farmers; maybe in this time they were the Talars, Horals 
and Zzaburs?

The Jrusteli, on the other hand, maintained an active empire 
with connections to everywhere.

> they were 'investigating' the False Gods to bring out the good points in them
> (ie Ehilm's fireballs) and leave out the bad (his selfish refusal to teach his
> powers).  Because of this they saw the worship of pagan gods as injurious to
> their aims (perhaps of getting more converts).

Not exactly. The God Learners encouraged theist worship, the Return to 
T^HRightness crusaders wiped out pagan elements from Malkioni only.

>>There is a real sun in Glorantha.

> The first statement is a powerful rejoinder to those among us who would see
> myths as ultimately falsifiable.

Funny, I count myself among these.

>> For some reasons the god learners found it
>>politic to identify Yelm universally with this sun, and I think they were
>>responsible for renaming the sun gods of Ralios and Fonrit.

> I disagree with the second part in that the
> God Learners had very little control over the worship of Yelm who lived beyond
> the EWF. 

Which might have been their reason to adopt that name as universal. "If 
we cannot change their way, we can adopt it and change all the others."

> IMO, the God of the Fonritians in the First Age was Lodril who is
> noted in pamaltelean myths as having ruled this land.

The Fonrit description makes it clear that the blue-skinned natives 
worshipped Artmal and his court, although fallen from power. The 
Agimori invaders came early in the Second Age, and they introduced the 
terrible gods of supression, like Ompalam.

"Lodril", like "Yelm", "Dehore", "Bolongo", Cronisper ("Dayzatar"), 
"Magasta", Yanmorla ("Gata"), Artmal and Annilla, is listed as one 
of the Old Gods of Pamaltela. Prosopaedia says: "Most were crippled 
or destroyed, but a few remain as advisors or friends of Pamalt."

We know that Bolongo, Cronisper, Yanmorla and Lodril are part of 
the Necklace of Pamalt. Artmal, Annilla, "Yelm" and "Magasta" aren't, 
to my knowledge. This makes "Yelm" and "Magasta" likely to be old 
Artmali deities, their names obscured by God Learner monomything. 
The fact that the Fonritian city-god Tondiji is more powerful than 
Yelm might well be due to the fact that the Yelm cult in Tondiji is a 
combination of the crippled "Yelm" of the Artmali and the imported Yelm 
from Genertela. (IMO, Tondiji is one of the deities imposed upon the 
Fonritians by Garangordos and his children.)

> The God Learners probably
> promugulated the worship of a more civilizing diety (Ompalam!) and introduced
> Yelmic worship to emphasize the meaning of bondage in the world

As I said above, Ompalam was most likely instituted by Garangordos, and 
"Yelm" is one of the Old Gods of Pamaltela.

> Furthermore Yelm is noted in kralori documents as ruling everywhere and
> organizing the world into its parts (or perhaps genertela): In Kralorela,
> Metsyla; in Dara Happa, Murzaharm and in Bliss in ignorance, Sun Storm.  In all
> these cases, they are recognized as being different from the True Sun, Yelm.

A Kralori "everywhere" could stop at the western end of the Shan Shan Mts.

It is my hobby to argue against the universality etc. of Yelm as the True 
Sun God. He is so in the Jrusteli Monomyth, and possibly that means that 
he is the one and only Sun God ever since the later 2nd Age (although with 
Somash present, I doubt that). However, before the monomything interference 
of the Kralori, I believe that the celestial emperor Yelm (a universal 
figure in myth, ruling the world in the Golden Age, which followed the 
Green Age and the rule of the Earth, as also Greg's latest Pelorian 
revelations confirm - cf. the introductory comments for his reading at 
Convulsions) was not necessarily identical to the Sun which circled 
around the Spike. Antirius (according to Plentonius already present at 
Murharzarm's ten tests for the emperor) was the sun god who shone on 
Dara Happa. Metsyla just was a light, not the sun - I don't know what 
the pre-Daruda Kralori worshipped as the sun. Emperor Shang-Hsa 
May-his-name-be-cursed made sure that the nature of the Kraliori sun 
before the Sunstop he (among other forces) effected remained hidden 
to the world when he destroyed all Kralori documents.

Sun Storm in Ignorance is as much the sun as is Basko.

No, I'm talking about serious candidates: Ehilm, Somash, Elmal, the 
Artmali "Yelm", and Antirius and/or (Yu-)Kargzant. Plus possibly others 
I've overlooked. Each of these deities was the true mediator of the solar 
powers of the physical body of the sun to their realms of influence, IMO. 
Yelm the Emperor just claimed ultimate rule over all realms the sun's rays 

> As for the Orlanthi myths about Elmal as identifying him as the True Sun:  I
> think the myths written in KoS were an undoubted euphenism told to little
> children.  The real identity of the Emperor would have been told to the new 
> Wind Lord (during the Grey Age) in his initatory Heroquest as he slays the Evil
> Emperor only to find that he not Elmal is the Sun.

As valid as a theory as mine, I suppose, but I happen to think that it was 
vice versa. There still was a sun in the Storm Age, when the Artmali Empire 
flowered, but death and trolls already stalked the surface of earth. Only 
the Greater Darkness (which the Dara Happans would start with the death 
of Antirius, IMO) and the Grey Age were totally devoid of a sun. The Grey 
Age saw minor celestial bodies step in - Kargzant, Shargash/Kolat/Calyz, 
Yelmalio (the elf-deity), the Star Captains, Yelorna; plus other deities 
of fire - Oakfed in Prax, Amanstan among the trolls (what little use they 
had for a sun or fire), volcano deities like in Kimos, Caladra in Kethaela 
and Aurelion on the Western Continent of Jrustela. Lightfore was there at 
the end of this period, and prepared the way for the new sun, whatever its 
nature - Elmal according to the Orlanthi, Antirius according to the 
city-dwelling Dara Happans, Yelm/(Yu-)Kargzant (or similar) according to the 
Hyaloring horse lords (later Pent nomads).

>  Afterall Dara happan myth
> says the Rebellus Terminus fled in terror after he had done the dead.

And not a single Orlanthi myth does, which shows that this is _not_ the 
way the Orlanthi view this incident.

> When Yelm returns to life, it is given in the perception of his 
> recognition as the Grand Order rather than him being the True Sun.  

My sentiment exactly, although in a totally divergent context.

> This makes Elmal, a orlanthi excuse for the sun.  The real truth was a cult
> secret hidden at the highest levels to make the driving force of Orlanths quest
> for social justice.

I don't think so, because:

> The God Learners recognized this

to fit into their monomything theories 

> and they treated it as such.

Yet not even they have Orlanth flee in terror.

> As for Elmal, I have identified Antirius as Yelmalio.

Which I don't buy.

--  Joerg Baumgartner


From: (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: The Only Old One: three replies, three different views...
Date: 10 Aug 94 17:58:53 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5604

Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 5575

>>Fonrit is different from Umathela, and I don't think that they  
>>imported any Umathelan deity on their own, or desired one.
> 	Hear, hear. Fonrit in general, I believe, has its own array  
> of gods, just as does Teshnos (or Prax, for that matter).

I'd even say it has two arrays of gods - those of the conquered 
blue-skinned natives, and those imposed upon them by the conquerors.

>>The First Age myth of the OOO mentions his proof that he was _not_ a 
>>troll when he resisted the iron the dwarf hero of Gemborg employed 
>>against him, and was not burnt.

> 	Okay, Joerg. I must now reveal one of the secrets of the Only  
> Old One. The reason he was able to prove that he was not a troll was  
> because on that occasion he WAS not a troll -- he was a human. Later  
> on, when he was burnt by the iron, he was a troll. How can this be?  
> Simple. The Only Old One is an office, not a person. It is handed  
> down through the centuries, and it was occasionally a human during  
> the good old days before the racial wars of the First Age set trolls,  
> elfs, and dwarfs at odds one with another. 

Are you sure? You're blasting a number of fine theories about both the 
OOO and the Pharaoh.

Let's assume you're right. Does the wielder of the office inherit the 
memories of his predecessor? Will the rumoured return of the OOO 
reinstitute the Shadowland unity lost after Belintar's death at the 
hands of Jar-eel the Assassin? Or did this canny superheroine also 
prevent the OOO's essence from returning? Are the Lunars preparing for 
the OOO to merge with Moonson?

>>Is there anybody who disagrees with this history of Slontos? 

>>Who has better informations?

> 	The history of Slontos is one of the very most likely spots  
> to be Gregged in the entirety of Glorantha. I know that Greg has   
> much stuff on it unpublished, including an interesting short story  
> just before its' destruction, in which almost the entire land is  
> given over to chaos. The chaos is real creepy stuff, too. The slime  
> deer in Dorastor came from that story. 

I'm relieved to learn I'm only going to be Gregged. Anyway, I was 
concerned with pre-God Learner Slontos, so that chaos bit doesn't 
interfere at all.

Peter Metcalfe in X-RQ-ID: 5567

Reacting to the same line as Sandy did:

> Reread Trolls Gods (NO don't look at the pictures just look at Argan Argar...)
> The OOO is a subcult of Argan Argar and teaches Cure Iron Burn.  IMO he
> employed this in his fight to prove the the revisionist dwarves that he was not
> a troll (when in fact he was)

I think this was the prevalent opinion.

However, my interpretation of the matter was that the Only Old One was 
neither man nor troll, being a deity born from two deities, one of 
Darkness and one of Earth. He is the half-brother of Choralinthor, with 
whom he shared the rule over his mother's lands, sunk and surface.

> and so they would not be violoating dictates by
> the Decamony not to kill any troll they meet.  I think the revolt subsided
> after that.

I'm curious about these dictates. Where did you draw them from?

> Your idea of an imitation council in Kethaela is quite compatible with the fact
> that the OOO sent a representative to the First Council.  He may have been
> enarmoured of the idea of the council and replicated its structure of an oath
> of unity to bring peace to his lands.

This was about my conception of the Shadowlands, yes.

> To recapitulate:  The secret of the first councils oath of unity was forged in
> the I Fought We Won Battle.  This had a magical effect which the OOO used in a
> similar ritual to bring peace to his land.  The Brithini of God Forgot had no
> part in the I Fought We Won Battle but assented to the rituals because it
> brought protection.

From Trollpak I take it that Zzabur took part in I Fought We Won, and 
his performance stood for all Brithini, just as Hengall's (Vingkot's 
second son) performance stood for all the Orlanthi Heort gathered 
around the Lawstaff. (KoS p.90)

> The OOO council was broken when the Dwarves revolted for an unknown reason and
> shattered when the OOO backed the losing side.

Huh? The dwarf revolt was in 123; the Broken Council attacked Dragon 
Pass and Kethaela in 280. In the meantime the OOO released the Rightarm 
Islanders when the Waertagi arrived, but he remained in control of the 
other Sixths.

> Argan Argar was the ruling God of Kethaela IMO in the
> first age in that he was the patron spirit of the trolls who dominated the
> region.  Deconstructionist attempts with comparable lands to me is a flawed
> approach.

Not quite. The trolls were close to the OOO so it looked to outsiders 
as if they dominated the region, the text says. I doubt that the 
Heortlings of southern Heortland really would have submitted to a 

>>(AA)..was the male ruler of night, though, a role which is rarely appreciated

> Not quite.  He was a son of night which is a bit different.  IMO he led a
> band of trolls who eventually conquered Kethaela where he bonked esrolia and
> got a son the OOO.  When his importance grew he became The son of night.

Perhaps a bit overstated, but Argan Argar's influence extended also 
into Halikiv and to a lesser extent into Dagori Inkarth. Argan Argar is 
the god of surface darkness, of which there was plenty before the Dawn, 
and enough in the nights within Time. His Darkness powers are more 
explicit than his other aspects.

>>"Argan Argar was active during the darkness, aiding anybody who called upon

> I think that this went as far as his borders during the grey age instead of
> taking on a universal approach.

First of all, he aided the people of his wife, true, but his borders 
were extending as far as there was surface darkness. Ralios, Dragon 
Pass and south Peloria certainly received his help as well. The Xentha 
temple at Hrelar Amali will have seen her son's worship as well...

Eric Rowe in X-RQ-ID: 5569

> Joerg on the Only Old One...

>>I still think that Kethaela had its own version (imitation) of the 
>>Dragon Pass Council

>>(Another hint that this council and the Dragon Pass council were not 
>>identical - the dwarfs remained true to the Osentalka project.)

> Can't wait for the Real Truth (tm) that will be presented in the
> documents for the Broken Council?

Why should I? I won't be there :-(

> Here's a few facts Joerg is missing
> and/or does not yet know. The fight between the Gemborg Mostali and
> the OOO was about 25 years before the second council began, they are
> related events, but not causal.

I am aware of this fact. The dwarf-troll struggle took place in 123 
S.T. Yet the change in the First Council occurred already in the turn 
from the first to the second century, when the Xiola Umbar representant 
(her daughter Charmilla) was replaced by a Zorak Zoran representant.

> Also, the Gemborg dwarfs were the only
> dwarfs besides the Greatway to support the Ostentalka project. Clearly
> their fight with the OOO did nothing to remove their agreement with
> council goals. That is all in RQ Companion and DW 24.

RQ Companion says nothing about the relation between the Gemborg 
dwarves and the Only Old One before Palangio the Iron Vrok conquered 
the Shadowlands, except for the rising of their Silver Age hero against 
the Only Old One.

The Dwarf feature of DW 24 states (p.16) that the dwarf seat in the 
First Council was filled by a Greatway dwarf. Gemborg is not explicitly 
mentioned, but: "In 182, the Decamony declared the Greatway dwarfs to 
be severed from all dwarfs of Mostal, and every settlement except those 
at the Vent, nearby in the Holy Country, agreed." [doubtlessly Gemborg] 
"Shortly afterward, a number of Greatway dwarfs supported the Second 
Council, and at that time (in 212) the entire nation was declared 

It is not clear that Gemborg is party of the Greatway realm. They 
supported Palangio against Arkat, though, but this could have been a 
reaction to Arkat's alliance with the trolls and the OOO.

Now, with Sandy's revelation of the OOO's identity at that time, will 
this affect your character write-up for the free form?

> ps I clearly don't agree with his two council theory. I believe the
> The one council (WCoF) was based in Kethaela based upon its members. It
> is sometimes called the dragon pass council because most consider Kethaela
> just the southern part of DP and many members came from DP.

To me it appeared that in the map of the Dawn Age in Trollpak (Uz Lore 
p.13) the Shadowlands were Troll Lands, whereas the Dragon Pass 
civilisation was mainly human (corresponding to 3rd Age Tarsh plus 
Sartar and Grazelands). There is no reason that the troll participants 
in the World Council of Friends did not come from Dagori Inkarth, the 
Aldryami from the Stinking forest (yet unmolested by Tusk Riders), the 
Mostali from the Greatway and Dwarf Run dwarves, and the Dragonewts 
from Dragon's Eye. (No idea where the Gold Wheel Dancers hailed from.)

Kethaela had its own identity, according to RQ Companion. At the 
Dawning the Only Old One ruled over the six Sixth and the nearby minor 
forces (such as the Gemborg dwarves), and he was an ally to the First 
Council. (As he was later to the EWF, als Dragon Pass based.) All the 
time, he had human subjects from five of the Sixths.

The separate state of the Shadowlands from the First Council becomes 
evident when RQC p.17 says "The Only Old One remained loyal to the 
trolls" when the Second Council became the Broken Council.

I'd expect the First Council to have met somewhere in the Old Tarsh 

--  Joerg Baumgartner