From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 12 Aug 1994, part 3 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: CHEN190@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty) Subject: Charge of the Blue Wizard Message-ID: <01HFSPIWP342ECYM4A@csc.canterbury.ac.nz> Date: 12 Aug 94 11:06:47 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5621 The Blue Wizrad readies his spellbooks for another day in the Great False Gods debate. For all you newbies, just be thankful he isn't debating the philosophical age! I will abstain from adding anything to the Malkioni Power politics today as all issues IMHO have been aired. Joe. I use touch projection in my tap spells as well as sight so I cast neutralize magic before Tapping! The Great False (So Help me) Gods Debate! ========================================= The Kingdom of Logic -------------------- Upon reflection, I see you are assuming that since Malkonwal was near Kethaela (the Heortland nation under King Richard was renamed the Kingdom of Malkonwal) the Kingdom of Logic is had a similar social status as the same state as Kethaela. I believe this is too neat. Teshnos is the nearest civilized state to Kralorela and the Kralori emphasize Dragon Magic whereas the Teshnans worship fire in all its forms. The mythical civilization in Fronela was the Third Eye Blue kingdom which was known for its metal working and had a theist philosophy instead of a malkioni type which we would expect from its close contact with the Malkioni during the storm age. Thus having Malkonwal in proximity does not make the Kingdom of Logic necessarily similar to the historical Kethaela. BTW what is the story with the City of Malkonwal? SiPrax said that Arlaten visited it but its not on the maps of God Forgot that I have. I'm thinking that God Forgot was the remaints of the Kingdom of Logic that migrated northwards after the Raging Sea sunk the Kingdom of Logic. Malkonwal would then be sunken ruins visible like that in the Mourn Sea. The only flaw in this is Brithos and the fact that the glaciers never reached so far south (GRAoY implies it reached the Rockwoods.) >The Brithini know five elemental forces and have special schools of sorcery >attached to them ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is not implied in any source that I have. Please provide a basis for these assertions (even if it means Gregging me!) >The absence of moon and Void/Chaos from these combinations speaks for itself. Moon was known in the mythical Artmali Empire and Void/Chaos was known to the Golden Age civilization - see Cults of Terror for the Ulerian Song. Surely the Kingdom of Logic would have incorporated these. What the Brithini do know of creation is stated in the Jrusteli Monomyth. This implies they viewed all creation apart from themselves as being impartial forces. The Kingdom of Logic was devoted to mastering thoses forces for the highest good. >while the False God experiment in Umathela fooled its worshippers with skilful >sorcery cast by the experimentors in reply to the priests officiation. Hmm, lets see if i've understood. The False Gods were devoid of power but the God learners made people worship them for some experimental purpose. To fool the ignorant masses, the God Learns cast spells in reply to the priests officiation. So Joe Bloggs who wants to worship Humakt gets directed to Humct and asks to learn sever spirit. When he does sacrifice for it, a God Learner casts an illusion upon him to make him feel as though he's got a rune spell in his head. When Joe Bloggs casts sever spirit, the God Learner frantically casts his powerful magics to imitate that effect and rushes of because is mystical sense tells him that 100 km away someone else also wants to cast Sever Spirit. The Idea of a scam seems widely implausible to me. I believe that the False Gods were like normal gods in that they could be worshipped. >There is a source which names the four sons and one daughter of Malkion as the >name-givers to the Brithini castes. There is, David Gadbois emailed me with the same letter in X-RQ-ID 5609. On pressuring him for information, all he could come up with was Hrestrol's saga which is unpublished and I have not seen. He did say you mentioned as much in the Digest vol10 no. 10 but I can't find it in the Soda (Henk?) Since you resorted to *gregging* in this debate you concede this point to me and I claim victory. Fonrit ------ Why Sandy calls me Whitelaw I have no idea? Could you please explain the joke? >BUT in any case the God Learners did not rule Fonrit, just one city. The Fonrit description implies that the God Learners ruled Fonrit and split up ultimately into several warring city states indistinguishable form other Fonritian cities. I prepared to synthesize and say that a band of god learners colonized Kalabar. There they sent envoys and armies to force the other cities into submission. Note Fonrit was NOT part of the Empire of the Sea and Land so they successfully resisted integration. >I do not think the God Learners had anything to do with Ompalam's >introduction. Hmm, I should have expanded myself here. What I believed was the Garangordings worshipped a variety of gods noticably Lodril and others. They were after all a divergent group of Doraddi. In the conquest of Fonrit, Ompalam rose to the fore to deal with the problems of handling the rebellious blue POW's. What I meant to say was that the God Learners (Kalabarians) in their effort to consolidate their dominance of Fonrit, removed all the other cults from positions of importance among the rulers (such as Lodril and others) so that the state religion or religion of the plutocracts was Ompalam in a type of ghastly thiestic malkionism (in that Ompalam is THE god of the Universe). Sandy then explains why Ompalam is indigenous and wonders on why it wasn't spread elsewhere as it was such a useful god. If the Kalabarians resisted integration into the Middle Sea Empire then you have a good reason why. They forged Fonrit into a powerful state that was able to withstand the Jrusteli. As ompalam is able to be very effective in internal discipline, attempts by the Jrusteli to coopt some Ompalami were doomed to failure. When the Jrusteli empire fell apart, the reason for the Kalabarians to maintain internal unity fell apart and they were reduced to squabbling. Indigenous elements seized this chance to mount a revolt against Kalabar and managed to destroy it after a long war. Perhaps some Kalabarian god Learners joined this revolt and still live today? >Such a useful god... You don't have to tell me. I was trying to imagine what spells an Ompalami might have and gave them a runic equivalent of stabilize life (from Mostal spells). The mind *boggles* at the opportunities... now Joe again(!) Somehow I feel if I went heroquesting, either him or sandy would be around to oppose me... :-) >...the God Learners tried to do some good, now and then. If anything this would support my hypothesis that the Jrusteli tried to incorporate Fonrit and by and large failed. Garguna is the only city which has numerous temples to Northern dieties and although big is in the extreme west. >Traditional Malkion concepts - a nice fiction for they were utterly lost >before time began. Prove it! I am describing the Brithini World view which was still being practiced when the Sun rose. >The kingdom of Logic was a self contented land free of trouble or ambition, in >fact its humans must have lived in pastoral (or rather agricultural) bliss. Umm, for starters it's the Kingdom of LOGIC and not the Kingdom of Pastoral Bliss. this implies a rigorous enquiry into learning conducted by Scholars and not country bumpkins drinking applejack all day long and going 'Oor aah, welcome to the Kingdom orf Logick, oor aah'. >none of the original Malkioni (now brithini castes) really allows for city >life. Reread your sources. The Kingdom of Logic was ancient before Malkion came along. Malkion brought in the castes because they were the best answer of maintaining the civilization of the Kingdom of Logic in face of awesome natural diasters such as the Glacier which was destroying cities, not to create the gloranthan garden of paradise. Furthermore, the Vadeli who claim to be following the truths of Malkion have the Merchant and Sailor Caste as a split up of the original Talar caste. Who is to say that the Dronar caste was not capable of being split up into rural hicks and urbanized artisans? >>the god learners had very little control over the worship of Yelm who lived >>beyond the EWF >Which may have been their reason to adopt the name as universal. "If we cannot >change their way, we can adopt it and change all the others". The God Learners were easily capable of 'changing their way'. Witness their attacks on Statham Well as described in the Cult of Arkat. >>IMO, the god of the Fonritians was Lodril was Lodril >The Fonrit description makes it clear that the Blueskin natives worshipped >Artmal. Whoops, mel culpae! When I said Fonritian, I meant the invading Agimori. >"lodril"...is listed as one of the old gods of pamaltela...Most were crippled >or destroyed, but few remain as advisors of friends of Pamalt." It states in ToTRM #11 that Lodril was the ruling god of pamaltela but is 'no longer important among us now'. The men and a half of Prax rever Lodril not Pamalt. Pamalt mythology acknowledges that Pamalt had nothing to do with the creation of the Agimori. Since this is doraddi myth, I assumed that the invading fonritian agimori worshipped Lodril and ignored Pamalt. this was to lead to the sky worship that is found in Fonrit. >Theories about Yelm and Magasta as being crippled artmali dieties based on >Tondiji Evidence. Tondiji also has Ompalam (God of SOB's) as subserviant. Since Ompalam is not part of the necklace, nor is he crippled, your argument here falls apart. So are the Invisible God and Zorak Zoran! Tondiji lords over these people in his city because the people of tondiji view their city as being destined to rule Glorantha and went about an extrem way of doing it. >IMO, Tondiji is one of the dieties imposed by the Fonritians. Jraktal is worshipped in Fonrit and Jraktal is not crippled. In fact Jraktal was the ruling god of Fonrit before the invading agimori. Also note that Slearn has a tradition of opposing harsh governments before the dawn! This could point to tondiji being the capital of the Artmali empire. I'll better break the posting here and resume the sun debate next posting. --------------------- From: CHEN190@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty) Subject: The Blue wizard gets gregged! Message-ID: <01HFSTIN31VCECYM4A@csc.canterbury.ac.nz> Date: 12 Aug 94 12:04:51 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5624 The Sun debate. Joe speaks >It is my hobby to argue against the universality etc of Yelm as the True Sun >God. A devils advocate huh? >He is so in the Monomyth and possibly that means that he is the one and only >sun god ever since the late second age (although with somash present, I doubt >that) Somash is a regional variation of Yelm. The reason for the variation was that during the darkness Soravatoor, the son of heaven, came down and instituted dayzatar worship and calyz, lodril amongst others. When Yelm came back to life, the cult of Somash developed its peculiarites to explain why the Great Emperor wasn't supreme in Teshnos. >I believe the celestial emperor Yelm was not necessarily identical to the Sun >which circled around the spike. The Dara happans call him Yelm and identify him as the sun, The Kralori call him Yelm and identify him as the Sun, Old Orlanthi mythology cite him as the evil emperor and when confronted with evidence by khordavu accepted him as the sun. Pamaltelan mythology (which was too complex to be touched by the God learners) state that Yelm ruled the North (which does not conflict with him ruling at the spike) was killed and brought back to life and identified him as the Sun. Praxian myth talks of Yelm fighting with high rules and distant powers and states he was killed and brought back to life and identifys him as the sun. Furthermore the ten cities of Murzaharm has Yuthubars as in the far centre. I submit that the far centre talked of here is NOT high above but on the spike which was the centre of the world. thus the Yelm mentioned in the GRAoY can be taken to be the celestial emperor and the present sun. >Antirius was present at Murzaharm's tests for Emperor. Well done! I hadn't noticed that. Of course it really does reopen old wounds in the Elmal/Yelmalio debate. My idea of a cult secret for Orlanth adventurous. ------------------------------------------------- >>after all Dara Happan myth says that rebellus terminus fled the field in >>terror after he had done the dead. >and not a single orlanthi myth does. You misunderstand. the Orlanthi myth would not speak of such a thing as it was a hidden secret only to be revealed in the iniation of a wind lord. If they wrote it down it would give the game away. >>this makes elmal, an orlanthi excuse for the sun. the real truth was a cult >>secret hidden at the highest levels You disagree because the God Learners did not have Orlanth flee in terror in the monomyth. By the time the God Learners questioned the Orlanthi, the latter had by now recognized that the Evil Emperor slain was the Sun God Yelm. they didn't change the written myth because the interpretation changes for readlily than the written word. The detail of orlanth fleeing the death of Yelm was something forgotten because it didn't make sense. The orlanthi had redefined the myth of the initiation of the Wind lord. After all the worshippers of Yelm had revealed their true colours by worshipping the evil gbaji cult so Yelm was evil and rightfully slain. the God Learners were the people you remeber thought Ernalda and dendara were the same despite them having different mothers (Ernalda -> Gata, Dendara -> Empress Earth; for further details read songs of the Dryads in GoG). Their monomyth was full of shortcut and fudged answers to things they didn't comprehend fully. What chance did they have of realizing that orlanth fled the scene in terror. And now the OOO debate ---------------------- As this is winding to a close after being gregged, I shall be brief and conciliatory to joe's point of view. >>and so they would not be violating dictates by the decamony >I'm curious about these dictates. Where did you draw them from? I made them up. I was trying to explain why Gemborg revolted against the OOO. I felt that the Nidan decamony would have been trying to crack dwon on conclave openhandism since they didn't want Greatway and Gemborg spilling Dwarf secrets for gaudy babubles. The dictates are possibly arguments that the Dwarf of Gemborg was betraying the way of mostal by being subserviant to trolls. these cutting remarks stung his mostali code of conduct and so he felt compelled to revolt. If you have a better idea than I'm willing to hear it. >From trollpak, I take it that Zzabur fought in the I fought we won. I wouldn't be so radical. the Godlearners said it applied to all races and not all human cultures. If you look at the troll battles you see it says about the IFWW battle in that the survivors formed the first council. Since Zzabur was in Brithos and not part of the first council, I don't think he took part. Furthermore in the Dragonewt Issue of Wyrms Footnotes it is stated that the Dragonewts resisted chaos in two centres - one in strength, the Kalori Dragon Empire and the other in weakness: the name of the Dragonewt who particpated in the IFWW for the Dragonewts of Dragon pass. So Trolls, Dwarfs, Elves, Dragonewts and Orlanthi took part (as well as the wheels) but not the Kralori. hence Zzabur didn't take part. >>The OOO council was broken when the dwarves revolted for an unknown reason and >>shattered when the OOO backed the losing side. >Huh, the dwarf revolt was in 123, the broken council attacked Dragon Pass and >Kethaela in 280. in the meantime the OOO released the Reightarm Islanders >when the waertagi arrived, but he remained in control. I was compressing two distinct events into one sentence and apologize for any confusion caused. The Gemborg revolt disrupted the OOO's magic but it held. Perhaps he gave away the rightarm to hold the remainder of kethaela better. >>>"argan argar was active during the darkness, aiding anybody who called upon >>>him." >>I think this went as far as his borders during the grey age. >First, he aided the poeple of his wife true, but his borders were extending as >far as there was surface darkness. Ralios, dragon pass and South Peloria >certainly recieved his help. Evidence of Argan Argar worship in halikiv nowadays is not evidence for Argan Argar influence in halikiv during the grey age/dawn. i submit that Halikiv was an ordinary troll queedom just like Dagori Inkarth until the OOO brought it under his influence. South Peloria? What is your evidence? Cheers the Blue Wizard aka "Whitelaw"