From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 13 Aug 1994, part 1
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
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Precedence: junk
X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
---------------------
From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: Convulsion, Eat at Geo's
Message-ID: <9408120742.AA04434@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 12 Aug 94 08:42:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5642
> From: Bob.Luckin@tiuk.ti.com
> Subject: Haggis and vegetarianism
> Someone remind me what won the troll category... (I *think* Henk's Elf
> fingers won the sweet category (is that right, Henk ?), and modesty forbids
> me from revealing the winner of the wierd section.)
>
It was "Elf Bread". Hans van Halteren and I had a joint
submission:
Elf Bread - Dutch sweet rye cake with horrible green
sugared pieces of fruit on top...
Bolgs -troll food- Dutch assorted licorice.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Gloranthan close-order troops and magic
Message-ID: <9408120749.AA27651@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 12 Aug 94 07:49:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5643
Roderick Robertson:
> Roderick, responding to Alex questioning Sandy replying to somebody...
Me, but otherwise, What He Said.
> >I plead ignorance of the cases, but I'm inclined to wonder, firstly, how
> >close is "close order" in such cases;
> Literally shoulder-to-shoulder in many cases. Pike formations
> (particularly) were seldom less than eight ranks deep.
We were talking about (circa) Am. Civil War era at this point. I was
specifically questioning whether such troops were as dense as pre-gunpowder
units.
> The fact that close-order infantry lasted until this century
> (Russian infantry charges in WW II) should prove that it was *not* just
> bone-heads that used it.
I'd say the reverse, that pre-20th century commanders had perfectly good
reasons to use mass infantry formations, but that Great War and Great
Patriotic War casualty figures give strong evidence for the commanders of
same being an unfortunate mixture of the boneheaded and ruthlessly cynical.
> Off the modern period, close order was used by the most successful
> commanders of the ancient world (as well as the biggest bone-heads).
> Very few battles were won by dispersed infantry acting alone.
This isn't in dispute, indeed, it's the basis of our discussion. The point
is, is close-order infantry as effective in Glorantha as the Macedonian
or Greek phalanx was? Well, that's sort of the point, anyway. At any rate,
I fully believe that Gloranthan close order unit exist, and with a certain
amount of good reason. But the Dara Happan phalanxes don't seem to have
done quite as well as Alexander's... (The Lunars have done better,
incorporating the same, but are more varied in composition, I believe.)
> >I don't think you have, but in any case, I'm not saying that
> >close-order infantry is a bad idea in general, in Glorantha. I think
> >they're disadvantaged against "artillery-like" magic (whatever that
> >means [*]), but there are still various good reasons to use such
> >troops, and formations. [...]
> I'd say that the magical strengths or weaknesses of units or armies
> makes as much difference as an imbalance in any other arm.
I'm talking about the effect of the presence of magic on the tactics as
a whole, here, not what happens when one is magically outgunned. This is,
indeed, not unlike comparing a battle where both sides have artillery to
one where neither do, for certain kinds of magic.
> [...] In WF 7 is an article about the
> Sartar Magical units, where the "Magic Factor" is shown to be the
> effect of Battle/Rune (Spirit/divine for the RQ III crowd) spells *as
> cast by 500-2,000 people*. The specific example given was of
> Demoralize coupled with Discorporate, backed by the entire POW (MP) of
> the regiment.
Which doesn't really work under the RQ rules, anyway. I think the Hidden
Moral of the article was really just "Please don't send us any more Mass
Death spells to simulate DP magical combat!" Some "extropolation" (at least)
of the RQ rules is clearly needed to "explain away" things that happen in DP.
> Having worked on Wargame rules for Glorantha myself (is Warhamster
> in Tales 12? I haven't seen it yet), there are few spells in RQ the
> game that will do much to a unit. Sunspear, Thunderbolt and Sever
> Spirit, the most devastating spells, do a lot to one man, but little to
> a unit.
Let's not forget missile-affecting spells. Many heavy infantry units haven't
been too bothered by enemy missile units despite being in close order, due
I think in large part to being decently armoured (and having bloody big
shields). Gross spells on volleys of arrows would act as a disincentive to
remaining in close order.
> Sunspear strikes in a 1-meter circle (basically one man),
> Thunderbolt and Sever Spirit hit one target.
On the other hand, what do mass-castings of, say, Sunspear by circles of
twenty magicians simultaneously do?
> But if an entire unit casts
> these spells, they can clear their bit of field just as effectively as
> grapeshot, and don't need to target a close order unit, since (with good
> coordination on the caster's end) they target individuals on the opposing
> unit.
I'd assume targetting was non-straightforward under typical battle
conditions. Longer ranges will be involved than in typical RQish situations,
confusion will be greater (a worrying concept, I admit...).
> Unless there is some social reason not to (ransom?), officers
> would make wonderful targets for the few Rune-level spell-casters in a unit.
Otherwise things would get a bit silly, as the officer cadre of either side
is kiboshed in the first few seconds. Though non-com cynics might argue this
would be a Damn Good Thing...
Sargeant Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: One True Church(es)
Message-ID: <9408120751.AA27703@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 12 Aug 94 07:51:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5644
Sandy Petersen:
> The Holy Rokari, New Hrestoli Idealist, and Castle Coast
> sects do not permit the Tap spell at all.
Sure about that, Sandy? }B-) Actually, I'm not convinced that the HtWw1
doods didn't contrive the differences here for game purposes. (Though
in this instance, I approve. )
> The Borist heresy believes that it is all right to Tap a
> chaotic entity or a non-chaotic person who worships a chaos god.
> [...] Illuminates are
> definitely considered chaotic and fair game by the Borists.
This could get amusing if many Galvosti are illuminated themselves...
> >How about tapping animals? Is that evil? Or rather, why shouldn't
> >Nikolos learn a tap spell, if he intends to use it only on animals?
> Because it's cruel and evil to Tap animals, too, just like it
> would be to skin animals alive.
Hard to believe there's anything like the same amount on unanimity about
this idea as compared to not tapping humans/intelligent beings, though.
I suspect that even if not the official postion of any major sect, this
is not exactly uncommon.
> Ha! I deny this. I don't think that the number of worshipers
> has ANYTHING to do with a deity's cosmic importance or might. So
> there. Nyah.
This argument would hold more water if there were some Cosmically Important
deities with vanishishly small numbers of worshippers... (Sandy will now
say "Arachne Solara!", but since she's not a manifest deity, the example
should be somewhat hypothetical.)
> None as widespread, though. I think Issaries is the "Source"
> of the Communication Rune.
I note Sandy's gained some Uncertain Quotes round "Source" these days;
I think his Faith Points in the greater gods must be dwindling. ;-)
FP 0,
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Cursed obnoxious Pedants.
Message-ID: <9408120754.AA27746@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 12 Aug 94 07:54:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5645
David Dunham exclaims:
> Sure! In Jonas Schiott's/my East Ralios, people yell "Arkat!" when they
> stub their toe or discover that their cows have been stolen.
To shoot off at a tangent, when you say "East" Ralios, where exactly do
you have in mind? In particular, over how wide an area are you suggesting
an anti-Arkat attitude might be prevalent? (Yeah, I know, he's not riotously
popular in the West either, but let's leave those worms temporarily recanned.)
> Sandy, never get into an argument with someone who claims for himself the
> title of "Most Obnoxious Pedant."
Since Sandy _is_ someone who claims for himself the title Most Obnoxious
Pedant, what ever makes you think he'd worry about getting into an argument
with another one? Lemme assure you, we're a more social (after our fashion)
species than you might imagine... Just ask the lucky (??) guy at Convulsion
trapped in a room with Sandy, Joerg, Nick and myself one (very) late night.
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: MA.
Message-ID: <9408120756.AA27768@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 12 Aug 94 07:56:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5646
Jim Lai on martial arts:
> Here's a proposal: various styles of martial arts in Kralorea also teach
> sorcery at the highest levels of training. Thus, GGo
> Dragon: Haste, Damage Boosting, Strengthening Enchantment,
> Enhance STR
> Centipede: Armoring Enchantment, Damage Resistance, Enhance CON,
> Venom
I'm a bit confused about your Analogues here: from the G:G illos, I'd have
said Dragon style was something (ever so vaguely) like aikido, while
Centipede was faintly shotokan-ish.
> Styles are generally patterned after insects and draconic types, as
> hsunchen animals are verboten.
Or if not, the MA styles could be resort of the Poor Repressed Peasants,
clinging to their disapproved-off hsunchen roots...
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Skol, skol, skol, skol...
Message-ID: <9408120800.AA27854@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 12 Aug 94 08:00:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5647
Argrath@aol.com:
> Commentary on "The Beers of Glorantha":
> Thus, the Orlanthi
> (analogous to early Iron Age or Dark Age Celts and Germans) don't
> use hops, even if they're growing right under their noses.
"Thus", indeed. Next you'll be telling us the Starfires don't distill
whisky!
> The dates, figs, and
> honey are from a Sumerian recipe of about 4000 years ago. About the same
> time, they were making beer on the Scottish island of Rhum.
"Authentic" spelling is Rum, btw, Rhum is a late-18th-century-pseudo-
gaellicisation, or some such. I won't hazard a guess on how they spelt it
in 2000BC.
Alex.
---------------------
From: CHEN190@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
Subject: The Blue Wizard keeps it short
Message-ID: <01HFU25ZA30YECYZEV@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: 13 Aug 94 08:25:27 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5648
---------------------
From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: Beer Spirits
Message-ID: <9408120901.AA04972@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 12 Aug 94 10:01:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5649
You know, did you realise a beer spirit isn't interested in beer at all?
It's in it for the sugar in the brew...
--
Henk | Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
oK[] | Single Point of Change, Multiple Points of Reference
---------------------
From: rowe@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Rowe)
Subject: Re: Disease Rules
Message-ID: <199408120902.CAA29749@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 11 Aug 94 19:02:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5650
>Disease spirits
>This may be one of those topics that was done to death years ago, and if so,
>could someone please forward the essence of the discussion. I have wondered f
>or
>years about the genesis and spread of diseases. Is Mallia the source for all
>diseases? Are all diseases caused by spirits? Is there any way to create
>either a spirit of disease or of healing? I know the RQ3 rules for the things
>and as a biologist always found them dissatisfying, since contagion is allowed
>but not explained. Has anyone come up with anything?
>
>Alison Place
Alison, you'll be happy to know there is a full new revision of disease
and passion spirit rules about to be sent to the printer as part of Lords
of Terror. Personally, I find them more consistent and 'realistic', but
they are not perfect. I'll post an errata here after it comes out in case
they didn't fix a couple of things. I think you will be more pleased with
with this version.
eric
ps Answers to your questions are yes, yes, yes and finally yes.
---------------------
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 12 Aug 1994, part 3
Message-ID: <199408120910.RAA18454@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 13 Aug 94 01:21:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5651
>>From trollpak, I take it that Zzabur fought in the I fought we won.
>
>I wouldn't be so radical. the Godlearners said it applied to all races and not
>all human cultures.
[spurious explanation deleted]
>hence Zzabur didn't take part.
>
Quoting from Cults of Terror (in the part describing the Final Battle of
Mortality, just after the part describing the battle and mentioning Zzabur
by name as taking part, twice)
" This is called the I Fought We Won battle, said to be responsible
for the preservation of the world. Notable among those who claim this are
Kygor Litor and the Darkness deities, and also Zzabur the Sorcerer Supreme.
For instance Zzabur says he was able to create a great magical spell which
harnessed the forces of anti-life (entropy) and sparked of a reaction of
Powers in the world to generate a new creation."
So, who is this Blue Wizard fellow anyway?
Obviously some sort of heretic. A burning, a burning :-)
Cheers
Dave Cake
PS what I want to know, is how much Zzabur, bearing in mind his title, is
based on Doctor Strange :-)
>Cheers
>
>the Blue Wizard aka "Whitelaw"
---------------------
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Zzabur
Message-ID: <199408120910.RAA18473@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 13 Aug 94 01:22:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5652
>>From trollpak, I take it that Zzabur fought in the I fought we won.
>
>I wouldn't be so radical. the Godlearners said it applied to all races and not
>all human cultures.
[spurious explanation deleted]
>hence Zzabur didn't take part.
>
Quoting from Cults of Terror (in the part describing the Final Battle of
Mortality, just after the part describing the battle and mentioning Zzabur
by name as taking part, twice)
" This is called the I Fought We Won battle, said to be responsible
for the preservation of the world. Notable among those who claim this are
Kygor Litor and the Darkness deities, and also Zzabur the Sorcerer Supreme.
For instance Zzabur says he was able to create a great magical spell which
harnessed the forces of anti-life (entropy) and sparked of a reaction of
Powers in the world to generate a new creation."
So, who is this Blue Wizard fellow anyway?
Obviously some sort of heretic. A burning, a burning :-)
Cheers
Dave Cake
PS what I want to know, is how much Zzabur, bearing in mind his title, is
based on Doctor Strange :-)
>Cheers
>
>the Blue Wizard aka "Whitelaw"
---------------------
From: rowe@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Rowe)
Subject: Sandy gets Gregged
Message-ID: <199408120915.CAA00388@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 11 Aug 94 19:15:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5653
Sandy writes...
> Sorry. But think of all the NEW amazing theories that you'll
>be able to come up with. The OOO being an office comes from a private
>conversation with Greg on the subject during the writing of Trollpak.
> Note that the OOO being an office may only apply to the First
>Age, though I personally doubt it. I don't think that the wielder of
>the office inherits his predecessors' memories, because that makes
>him too much like the Red Emperor and the Pharaoh.
Guess Greg forgot. I asked him today (for the Broken Council LARP) and
Greg said the OOO was not an office. If you want it to stay an office
e-mail us quick before we finish all the Broken COuncil stuff about the
OOO.
eric
---------------------
From: CHEN190@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
Subject: The Blue Wizard keeps it short!
Message-ID: <01HFU27ICY4IECZ1ZJ@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: 13 Aug 94 09:28:53 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5654
Hmm, no replies from Joerg in todays daily! :-(
Thunderstoning the Crimson Bat.
-------------------------------
Isn't create thunderstone one use only? That means you can't put it matrices
like you can't put sever spirit into a matrice. I could be wrong but check the
rules.
Arkat's Pop
-----------
Arkat's dad is known to be a barbarian warrior at the very least. His mother's
father however was a horal and so when Arkat (after being illumined by the
elves) when he turned 13 and was handed over to the brithini was brought up in
his grandfathers caste. As Arkat's mum was driven from her home by outraged
parents, one can assume the narrator to be an uncle or cousin. The source for
this is Cults of Terror but I do confess that I do not know the names of any
Brithini Horals.
Henk censors the daily
----------------------
>Hi guys, can you take this arguement off-line for a couple of days and post
>the results.
Sure thing, Henk! I don't anticipate it would too exciting though after Joe's
source for his contention was regregged.
Cannibalistic Chalanna Arroy Healers
------------------------------------
Bob writes
>But I think that a really devout worshipper of CA might *deliberately* adopt
>an omivorous diet despite their own squeamishness, in order to prove they did
>view all life as equal.
I don't doubt you on your philosophy, I believe the vegatarianism is just a
cult interpolation of rules. But what if someone decides to practice
cannibalism in addition to the diet above to prove all things are equal?
Disorderly conduct
------------------
Gary james
>>Someone was asking why Uleria's HHD occurs in disorder week. I assumed it was
>>because she was associated with disorder.
Uleria's runes are Fertility (love, life?) and Infinity. No mention of
disorder. However I much prefer the idea that she was associated with boggles
as mentioned in Cults of terror (which I had forgotten about). BTW there
appears to be a dsitinction between sources of the runes. Orlanth, Red
Goddess, Magasta, Ernalda, Yelm, Subere, Humakt, Chalana Arroy, Mostal and
Mastakos all have doubled runes to indicate their source whereas the Invisible
God and Uleria have the infinity rune attached. Does this mean that they not
quite the same gods who originally held this rune (in the view of GRAoY with
reference to Ezvenveztolay (or something like that) having left the world -
this makes sense for the invisible god), the God learners having used the Rune
Quest Sight and discovered something they couldn't penetrate. If so, this
raises a scarey question as there is a third god who exhibits the infinity
rune: Flamal. Are we to say the secret lightbringers quest failed, and that
they only brought back a shadow? Is this the Forbidden Secret?
Sandy is confused
-----------------
>>I suspect that this has to do with my winning the debates in the
>>private postings about the human wave tactics we've been sending to
>>each other
>WHAT?! I won those debates hands down! I can't believe you'd say that in front
>of the entire daily with you bare face hangin out!
Hmmm?!? You refering to me? You must have me confused with somebody else like
...say Peter Whitelaw for instance. ;-)
Talking about gods in Fonrit
----------------------------
J:>and they introduced the terrible gods of suppression like Ompalam.
S:>and Jraktal. Probably Ikadz too. The Agimori who conquered Fonrit do not
S:>seemed to have retained much of the original Doraddi culture, and they
S:>probably didn't think of Lodril as the creator anymore.
For the record, Jraktal came from the North out of the maw of Jotimam. (he can
still be as Sandy says nonchaotic like Malia, perhaps he tapped his chaos rune
out of existance!) ToTRM #8 states that he was the leader of the invasion of
Pamaltela and influential in the destruction of Artmal. However doraddi myths
do not mention anything like this. (The only thing they do mention that is even
close is in the Pamalt Cult Writeup where a curious alliance of elves, trolls,
dwarves and paleskinned humans takes place). Thus I assumed that Jraktal
remained in Fonrit and left Vovisibor to cross the Mountains. So Jraktal is
the ruling god of Fonrit having maimed Artmal and made him a slave. The
invading agimori did not worship Jraktal as ToTRM #8 says of Jraktal that he
was conquered and overthrown by Garangordos the Cruel although this lead to the
freeing of Ompalam. Furthermore the Selarn writeup (the thief cult of
Afadjann) states they had a traditon of surviving harsh government since
*before the dawn*.
So I had posited a Jraktali civilization at the dawn where the masses at large
are worshippers of Artmal. The elite worshipped Jraktal and kept the masses at
bay with the terror of the Tap. (I do not know how the elite were selected).
As the government is harsh, Ikadz could have been worshipped at this time.
When Garangordos invades, his cruelty necessitates the imposition of Ompalam to
keep the Artmali in check. I assumed Lodril worship among the invading Agimori
to lay down the foundation for later sky worship which happens in some cities.
The only question this leaves is Seiseine. As Fonrit is a pretty horrible
place divinty wise, she sounds like she might fit in there. Perhaps she is
worshipped as the goddess of drug trances?
Well that's all from me now.
Bye!
Peter Metcalfe
---------------------
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Sanctify
Message-ID: <199408120929.RAA18719@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 13 Aug 94 01:40:53 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5655
Someone brought up Rune lords missing holy days, and so missing out
on regaining spells.
It was my impression that the spell 'Sanctify' was originally
intended to allow people to worship when far from the temple, presumably to
regain spells or at least cast rituals spells when on campaign.
Anyone want to explain what it is capable of, and how it works?
Sandy, in particular, you ight be able to elucidate some of the intent of
the spell.
I note also that it has been removed from RQ:AIG, presumably
because they weren't really sure about what it died either.
Cheers
Dave Cake